Scott Hahn

[PatienceAndLove]

I think part of the suspicion by some traditionalists is Scott’s close association with Franciscan University. Among the most orthodox catholic universities in the US. However, it is more a charismatic Catholic university. I don’t believe there is a traditionmalist presence there. Not out of anything the university does, its just that its become a great magnet for charismatic and non-traditional orthodox Catholic students.

When I was at Fran U, there was a bi-monthly TLM. That was 5 years ago. I believe it is at least weekly now, if not daily.
I don’t see why people don’t just call the chapel and get their questions answered.

But let us not forget the Perpetual Adoration chapel, Stations of the Cross, year-round creche, and Tomb to the Unborn Children (with aborted children, now named, entombed within). Yep, their not orthodox sarcasm off

 

[rien]

Mr. Hahn is educated but not wisd, quite knowledgeable but lacks an understanding of pre-Vatican 2 teachings and like many modern theologians places too much emphasis on post Vatican 2 teachings, and does not look at the teachings of the whole two thousand years of doctrine. Mr. Hahn being a post Vatican 2 Protestant convert lacks the insight on the fullnes of all the Churchs teachings. He has fallen into the trap that many people have that make their living off the Church do, in that they follow the politically correct stance on issues that Rome has become pc on, and won’t stand up for the truth i.e. false ecumemism, altar girls, not speaking to the declines of Vatican 2 teachings or misteachings, and the sacredness of the TLM. We must all believe in the infallable doctrines taught by the Church, but we must question false teachers and false teachings just as scripture foretold. False teachings are teachings of men, and there have been many coming out of the Church in the last forty years. Mr. Hahn sticks his head in the stand as so many do on these issues. ps. the only dialogue we should be having with any other faiths is to bring them the truth of the Church, not a social get together as seen so often today. We are a holy people, whoever is not with us is against us. Read your whole bible, look at all the councils, and all the encyclicals.

Your second to last sentence sounds a bit Gnostic. Interesting as NOR had an article this summer on Gnosticism as a danger in traditionalism.

 

[rien]

When I was at Fran U, there was a bi-monthly TLM. That was 5 years ago. I believe it is at least weekly now, if not daily.
I don’t see why people don’t just call the chapel and get their questions answered.

But let us not forget the Perpetual Adoration chapel, Stations of the Cross, year-round creche, and Tomb to the Unborn Children (with aborted children, now named, entombed within). Yep, their not orthodox sarcasm off

FU is a great orthodox Catholic university. There is and always has been a variety of spiritual expressions in the Catholic church. Mirrored in a way in the differeing types of orders and monasteries that go back to almost the beginning.

Yes, there can be abuses in the charismatic movement. But Catholics are not Baptists. The Catholic church does not teach fundamentalist dogma that the gifts of the Spirit ended with the death of the last Apostle. Quite the contrary. Many Saints manifested different gifts over the centuries. One even bi-located. I’ll try to find his name. It slips me now. Do you reject the charismatic phenomena displayed by Saints and plain layfolks over the history of the church?The stigmata are a charismatic phenomena. Padre Pio one of the most recent famous individuals who possessed this sign.

 

[rien]

How can one understand preV2 teachings and not question the false ecumenism that are rampant today?, charismatic movement?, altar girls?
Where is his book on decline of confession? Catholics leaving Church? Decline in belief of Presence? Fewer priests? He mixes truth with modernism, very dangerous, because people take it all in as truth. A wolf in sheeps clothing? Bringing people to this faith with errors?

Where are his efforts here? You should familiarize yourself with Dr. Hahn’s St. Paul Center. His organization is training orthodox lay catechists across the country and also training priests. To bring people back into the church. To evangelize as catholics are called to do. An evangelization frankly that is missing too often IMO among traditionalists.

Go to www.salvationhistory.com

Take the free online Bible studies. I think you’ll find them totally orthodox and absolutely dynamic.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

FU is a great orthodox Catholic university. There is and always has been a variety of spiritual expressions in the Catholic church. Mirrored in a way in the differeing types of orders and monasteries that go back to almost the beginning.

Yes, there can be abuses in the charismatic movement. But Catholics are not Baptists. The Catholic church does not teach fundamentalist dogma that the gifts of the Spirit ended with the death of the last Apostle. Quite the contrary. Many Saints manifested different gifts over the centuries. One even bi-located. I’ll try to find his name. It slips me now. Do you reject the charismatic phenomena displayed by Saints and plain layfolks over the history of the church?The stigmata are a charismatic phenomena. Padre Pio one of the most recent famous individuals who possessed this sign.

I am a Charismatic Traditionalist… does that answer your question?

 

[rien]

I am a Charismatic Traditionalist… does that answer your question?

I think you are a rare breed. The two groups have been mostly separate from each other. But there is no need for that. Many of the Saints who demonstrated various gifts were traditionalists as they assited at the Tridentine Mass.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I think you are a rare breed. The two groups have been mostly separate from each other. But there is no need for that. Many of the Saints who demonstrated various gifts were traditionalists as they assited at the Tridentine Mass.

Comes from my unique upbringing, revert tale, and other craziness.
I am thinking that I may be the beginning of a new, but rare, bread.

 

[otjm]

How can one understand preV2 teachings and not question the false ecumenism that are rampant today?, charismatic movement?, altar girls?
Where is his book on decline of confession? Catholics leaving Church? Decline in belief of Presence? Fewer priests? He mixes truth with modernism, very dangerous, because people take it all in as truth. A wolf in sheeps clothing? Bringing people to this faith with errors?

Considering that he is a Scripture scholar, why would you presume that he would write about any of those things, or judge his worthiness by the fact that he did not write on those things?

 

[tcraig]

Considering that he is a Scripture scholar, why would you presume that he would write about any of those things, or judge his worthiness by the fact that he did not write on those things?

Exactly! What I hear from so many is that Scott Hahn isn’t talking about what they want him to talk about, so that makes hiim suspect or a modernist (a term that seems to get thrown about willy-nilly, with no actual connection to the heresy of modernism).

I remember that for a while everytime Scott Hahn’s name was brought up, someone would inevitably mention Gerry Matatics (similar background before conversion) and how Gerry “got it” regarding the TLM, the “crisis” in the Church, etc. Then Gerry went sede, so that pretty much ended that, LOL.

 

[DustinsDad]

FU is a great orthodox Catholic university. There is and always has been a variety of spiritual expressions in the Catholic church. Mirrored in a way in the differeing types of orders and monasteries that go back to almost the beginning.

Yes, there can be abuses in the charismatic movement. But Catholics are not Baptists. The Catholic church does not teach fundamentalist dogma that the gifts of the Spirit ended with the death of the last Apostle. Quite the contrary. Many Saints manifested different gifts over the centuries. One even bi-located. I’ll try to find his name. It slips me now. Do you reject the charismatic phenomena displayed by Saints and plain layfolks over the history of the church?The stigmata are a charismatic phenomena. Padre Pio one of the most recent famous individuals who possessed this sign.

The charismatic element of Stuebenville (and Hahn) is something I was unaware of prior to hearing about it from the traditionalist camps. I think it is what puts alot of folks off (see this article) and makes them suspicious. Perhaps rightfully so - time will tell where it all goes.

For me, I recognize that there are many sincere devout folks involved in the charismatic movement - including my father (at one time moreso than at present) who is one of the holiest and most prayerful faithful Catholics I know and to whome on this side of heaven, I owe the most. But I just can’t reconcile some of the elements of the movement (not abuses mind you, but the very elements themselves) with the faith as it’s been handed down from day one.

It’s origin is troubling, the “seeking out of the gifts” is troubling, the blending or blurring the lines between the One True Church and protestant religions is troubling, and the downplaying of the Sacrament of Confirmation for emotional experiences is troubling. And perhaps most troubling of all to me is that it appears that overall (and this is just from personal experience and hearsay mind you) I think more catholics get involved with the movement and then leave the Church than do protestants get converted to the Church through the movement.

Just being honest here with some of my concerns, which probably reflect the traditionalist concerns and hence some of the “tension” with Hahn.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[pnewton]

Perhaps being a former Protestant Bible scholar makes him beter able to consider historical context when reading and understanding Church documents and encyclicals. Bible interpretation 101 is that one never interprets the Bible with a 20th century mindset. One must understand the language, philosophy and culture of the writer, then consider the audience and historical setting of any passage.

Having come from the fallacy of sola scriptura, it is vital to see that Christ founded a Church that is adaptable to all cultures and all times. If the Church was not meant to adapt, then God would have been better off just setting down all the truth needed in the first century.

When it is suggested that one must read every encyclical, church document and all the Church Fathers, I wonder how much good that would do unless one also familiarized themselves with the exact background and context of each document individually, surely the work of many lifetimes.

Just as Protestant take the Bible, read it without proper foundation and come to conclusions that separate them from the Church, so have some done to Church documents. The net result is the same.

 

[latinmass]

Mr. Hahn is a scripture scholar yes, but he is becoming an icon for many Catholics. His books, cd’s, talks on EWTN, visits to parishes, make him a lay leader in the Church. A lay shepherd if you will. Everything he is associated with become models for the sheep that follow which seem to be many. My point is, all of us must fight for truth in the Church, especially those who come to some popularity as Mr. Hahn has. It is all of our responsibilities to right all wrong in the Church. There is beautiful truth in much of what Mr. Hahn teaches. My point is that him not speaking to the heart of many issues which are hurting the Church is making half truths which his unknowing students take in with only half knowledge. ie. troubling charismatic movement, false ecumenism, losing traditions(altar girls) numbers in Church decreasing. etc. I realize he touches on these things in his books, but does not take them on. He and all of us must. We fight the good fight everywhere in everyway. It is very orthodox that healing miracles as the apostles, and speaking in tongues ended with them to start the Church. Not that miracles don’t happen today, but not as St. Peter at will. Thanks Dustins Dad for your insight. A lot of truth with a little lie is very dangerous. People flocking to this misinformation is very dangerous. Someone please tell me how my worship should be different post V2. To be safe I choose to worship to all pre V2 teachings. If I choose to worship totally pre V2 where have I and all the saints for 1960 years gone wrong? I beg to know.

 

[pnewton]

He and all of us must.

Besides the fact that your posts include several topics which might be debated in threads by themselves, and assuming that Mr. Hahn agreed with you on every point, that by know means that God has called him to a ministry of addressing each and every issue that you have discribed. No one is called to every ministry in the Church. That is the message of 1 Corinthians 12. I can see no reason to blame him for following God’s call and not your agenda, unless your only purpose is to derail this thread off the topic and onto another.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

I think you are a rare breed. The two groups have been mostly separate from each other. But there is no need for that. Many of the Saints who demonstrated various gifts were traditionalists as they assited at the Tridentine Mass.

Because that was the only Mass these saints had at the time.

 

[OutinChgoburbs]

Perhaps being a former Protestant Bible scholar makes him beter able to consider historical context when reading and understanding Church documents and encyclicals. Bible interpretation 101 is that one never interprets the Bible with a 20th century mindset. One must understand the language, philosophy and culture of the writer, then consider the audience and historical setting of any passage.

Having come from the fallacy of sola scriptura, it is vital to see that Christ founded a Church that is adaptable to all cultures and all times. If the Church was not meant to adapt, then God would have been better off just setting down all the truth needed in the first century.

When it is suggested that one must read every encyclical, church document and all the Church Fathers, I wonder how much good that would do unless one also familiarized themselves with the exact background and context of each document individually, surely the work of many lifetimes.

Just as Protestant take the Bible, read it without proper foundation and come to conclusions that separate them from the Church, so have some done to Church documents. The net result is the same.

:clapping:

 

[latinmass]

Besides the fact that your posts include several topics which might be debated in threads by themselves, and assuming that Mr. Hahn agreed with you on every point, that by know means that God has called him to a ministry of addressing each and every issue that you have discribed. No one is called to every ministry in the Church. That is the message of 1 Corinthians 12. I can see no reason to blame him for following God’s call and not your agenda, unless your only purpose is to derail this thread off the topic and onto another.

My agenda is the Church. Truth. No matter what our call on earth, as Christians, all we are associated with becomes teaching to others. It would be nieve to think otherwise. As Mr. Hahn grows to hero status to many, he must be aware that many follow all his actions and affilliations. If we do not point out that he is not orthodox on all teachings and affiliations many will follow blindly as I have seen. If one comes to the Church not knowing the whole truth, is that a good thing. This is what I struggle with. Mr. Hahn seems to be mostly Catholic and a little Protestant which create the same in his followers. This is what has infected the Church the last forty years.

 

[otjm]

Mr. Hahn is a scripture scholar yes, but he is becoming an icon for many Catholics. His books, cd’s, talks on EWTN, visits to parishes, make him a lay leader in the Church. A lay shepherd if you will. Everything he is associated with become models for the sheep that follow which seem to be many. My point is, all of us must fight for truth in the Church, especially those who come to some popularity as Mr. Hahn has. It is all of our responsibilities to right all wrong in the Church.

I beg to differ with you; there is nothing in Church teaching that says that everyone has the duty to right what is wrong in the Church. To begin with, not everyone knows what is wrong in the Church. Further, people are to use their talents for God’s glory; he does so as a Scripture scholar. And even as a
scripture scholar, it is not necessarily his duty to right what my be wrong in Scripture scholarship; that would resume that he should not be doing scholarship on something that may not be wrong.

There is beautiful truth in much of what Mr. Hahn teaches. My point is that him not speaking to the heart of many issues which are hurting the Church is making half truths which his unknowing students take in with only half knowledge. ie. troubling charismatic movement, false ecumenism, losing traditions(altar girls) numbers in Church decreasing. etc.

You would be wise to not take others’ opinions as facts. You would also be wise to realize that those things in the Church which are traditions with a small t are not immutable; at one time many of them did not exist, or existed in a different format. You may not like altar girls but that does not make it wrong. I am well aware of the issue of prudential judgement; but just because you judge it as unprudential does not make it so. The fact that he does not agree with you on all points (and you have yet to provide any evidence that such is the fact) does not make him a poorer Catholic nor you a better one; it just means that both of you are Catholics with differening opinions on matters for which the Church allows differing opinions.

I believe part of the problem may stem from what appears to be an opinion on your part that prior to Vatican 2 everyone agreed with everything the Church said or did. Such is simply not the case.

It is very orthodox that healing miracles as the apostles, and speaking in tongues ended with them to start the Church. Not that miracles don’t happen today, but not as St. Peter at will. Thanks Dustins Dad for your insight.

I would suggest that since the Church has officially approved of the Charismatic Movement, you might want to follow the mind of the Church and quit presuming that if there is any error anywhere, that the whole thing must be thrown out. We have 2000 years of official Church teaching, and there has hardly been a year during that in which someone did not take the truth and find a way to introduce some error. That does not mean we throw out the truth.

People flocking to this misinformation is very dangerous. Someone please tell me how my worship should be different post V2. To be safe I choose to worship to all pre V2 teachings. If I choose to worship totally pre V2 where have I and all the saints for 1960 years gone wrong? I beg to know.

For starters, try actually following what the Church actually teaches and does, instead of presuming that what the Church officially sets forth is beset with errors.

 

[pnewton]

My agenda is the Church. Truth. No matter what our call on earth, as Christians, all we are associated with becomes teaching to others. It would be nieve to think otherwise. As Mr. Hahn grows to hero status to many, he must be aware that many follow all his actions and affilliations. If we do not point out that he is not orthodox on all teachings and affiliations many will follow blindly as I have seen.

I’m sorry, but this is something new. You are now saying he is unorthodox in his teaching? That is a serious accusation. Perhaps you have some reason for this, though. Can you reference his unorthodoxy and tell me where he is contradiction with the Catechism?

I regret that you see Protestant influence as an infection, especially when the term is used so broadly. No doubt the original Church had those that struggled with the Gentile “infection”. As the faith spread throughout the Empire, it was a Latin infection, etc.

Fortunately most Catholics I have met have not been so narrow-minded and have welcomed their Protestant brothers when they convert. Just as Mary adapted to the culture of the Mayas when she appeared to Juan Diego, most Catholics place the value of evangelization over personal agenda. We must heed the call of Paul to be all things to all people for the sake of winning them to Christ. I can respect that traditionalist Catholics do not see the need to follow this biblical example. After all, I said earlier not all are called to the same ministry. What I find objectionable, though, is when they run down their fellow Catholics for following Paul’s example. Truly a case of the hand saying to the foot that you are not as important.

 

[Mannyfit75]

My agenda is the Church. Truth. No matter what our call on earth, as Christians, all we are associated with becomes teaching to others. It would be nieve to think otherwise. As Mr. Hahn grows to hero status to many, he must be aware that many follow all his actions and affilliations. If we do not point out that he is not orthodox on all teachings and affiliations many will follow blindly as I have seen. If one comes to the Church not knowing the whole truth, is that a good thing. This is what I struggle with. Mr. Hahn seems to be mostly Catholic and a little Protestant which create the same in his followers. This is what has infected the Church the last forty years.

My misguided Catholic friend,

I hardly think Scott Hahn is anything but a modernist as you coined him to be. His studies in the writings of the Early Church Fathers inspired him to become Catholic. He is an example how an lay Catholic ought to be, loyal and obedient to the Church.

Let me remind you that we as the laity have an obedience to the Church. While you seem to show disobedience particularly to the Second Vatican Council. Have you even bothered to look at the Sixteen Documents of the Vatican II? I tell you must of the Council’s document cite OT, NT, old Council documents, and encyclicals of the Popes.

I shall end with the words of St. Ignatius of Antioch Letter to the Smyrnaeans (107 AD to 110 AD)

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop.

See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

Chapter 9. Honour the bishop.

Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness [of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop. He who honours the bishop has been honoured by God; he who does anything without the knowledge of the bishop, does [in reality] serve the devil. Let all things, then, abound to you through grace, for you are worthy. You have refreshed me in all things, and Jesus Christ [shall refresh] you. You have loved me when absent as well as when present. May God recompense you, for whose sake, while you endure all things, you shall attain unto Him

and here another concerning Schismatics:

Chapter 3. Avoid schismatics.

Keep yourselves from those evil plants which Jesus Christ does not tend, because they are not the planting of the Father. Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, that they may live according to Jesus Christ.** Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God**. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ.].

Therefore, my brethren,

Do not cause division amongst your fellow Church members. Least you be a Schismatic…

 

[love4mary]

As a convert, I found the Lambs Supper to be an excellent and well written book explaining the Mass in more biblical detail. Come to think of it, I have read just about everything that Scott Hahn has written and came away from that with a better understanding of my faith.

The only difficultly I have with Scott Hahn is that sometimes he forgets that he is writing to those of us with “average” intelligence. Jeff Cavins is a great author who writes more for “average” folks like me, same sound teachings but in an easier presentation. An example of this would be the bible study programs. Scott Hahn presents a wonderful study program but I feel like I need a PhD to fully understand it. Jeff Cavins on the other hand, with his bible study program, is easier to follow and understand for us Non-PhD types.

If Scott Hahn writes it though, get it!,.,