Scott Hahn

[rien]

When one is down to nothing, anything is a leap and a bound. When there is NO Tridentine Latin Mass, (like here in St. Louis a few years ago), and then one is added and a church dedicated to TLM (Tridentine Latin Mass), then that’s a 100% increase.

The Latin Mass never went away, it is the Tridentine Mass that is “extraordinary.” Most of the differences between NO and TLM are, the priest faces away from the congregation during the Eucharistic Prayer and Consecration. Also, the old rite had limited readings from the Bible: a one year vs three year cycle. The daily readings were the Sunday readings - EVERY DAY. Now that’s stagnant. The Bible is the Catholic Church’s word to the world. Why would we not want to read as much as we can?

Why would I want the priest to face away from me? Jesus was WITH his Apostles, he did not have his back to them.

We worship as a Community of believers at mass. I remember not being allowed to even look at other people in the TLM, much less utter a whisper in the aisle after mass. I think it’s wonderful that we have fellowship, and the sign of peace. Talking in front of the Blessed Sacrament is not a sin. There is a time and place for private worship and meditation (Eucharistic Adoration). Are we only allowed to talk prescribed words in front of the Blessed Sacrament?

I don’t know what “indult” means, but I do believe that it is the Sacredness, the Reverence with which we Catholics treat our Lord in the mass which draws non Catholics to the Catholic Church.

I generally agree. The lack of Scripture knowledge/availability in the Catholic Church is inexcusable. That may be changing with the new evangelical converts. let’s hope so.

I’d like to read about an Indult congregation which has actively gone to its neighborhood and preached the Good news, worked to bring in converts. Have a focus on Bible study. There may well be one - I am simply unaware of any.

Now we disagree on the priest facing the congregation. Historically the priest and congregation faces East. That is how Christian churches were designed for centuries. The sanctuary facing East so priest and congregation faces East in prayer.

Christians have prayed facing East for centuries and centuries. The East, where the sun rises, is a reminder of the celestial providence of God and symbolizes going forward in the Light of Christ. Churches were designed that way until relatively recently because of that. Its a “tradition” that, IMO, should never have been lost.

Happily several new large church projects - Our Lady of Clear Creek Monastery in Oklahoma and the Chapel of Our Lady of The Holy Trinity among others - are returning to the historic, “primitive” Chritian sense of building churches.

I don’t see the priest facing the congregation as an advance. As I read it, and I may be wrong, the notion of both priest and congregation facing another same direction - towards the East say - has a significance that many Cathoilics today don’t realize IMO. The focus during Mas should not be on one another but somethone other. The congragation and priest all facing “away” really captures this IMO. I prefer the NO, but this is one change I’d like to see made to the NO.

I heard one priest condemn the Extraordinary form cause priests would face away from the people. He does not get it. During Mass the priest and congregation are not about facing each other but, IMO, facing a common symbolic direction towards God.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Christians have prayed facing East for centuries and centuries. The East, where the sun rises, is a reminder of the celestial providence of God and symbolizes going forward in the Light of Christ. Churches were designed that way until relatively recently because of that. Its a “tradition” that, IMO, should never have been lost.
historic, “primitive” Chritian sense of building churches.

I don’t see the priest facing the congregation as an advance. As I read it, and I may be wrong, the notion of both priest and congregation facing another same direction - towards the East say - has a significance that many Cathoilics today don’t realize IMO. The focus during Mas should not be on one another but somethone other. The congragation and priest all facing “away” really captures this IMO. I prefer the NO, but this is one change I’d like to see made to the NO.
but, IMO, facing a common symbolic direction towards God.

You may have a point regarding tradition and symbolism.

BUT, I still don’t like. Which direction do people east of the Middle East face?

Our parish church was built in 1954, before Vat II. It faces north. I can think of a few other old ones here in St. Louis. St. Francis Xavier College Church, campus of St Louis University (1883, oldest bells west of the Mississippi) faces west.
city-data.com/picfilesv/picv15210.php
The Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis, “New Cathedral” (1907) faces north,
cathedralstl.org/intro/
and Basilica of St Louis, King of France “Old Cathedral” (1818) faces north.

The above parishes existed prior to these dates, the dates are the cornerstones of the currrent edifices.

 

[rien]

You may have a point regarding tradition and symbolism.

BUT, I still don’t like. Which direction do people east of the Middle East face?

Our parish church was built in 1954, before Vat II. It faces north. I can think of a few other old ones here in St. Louis. St. Francis Xavier College Church, campus of St Louis University (1883, oldest bells west of the Mississippi) faces west.
city-data.com/picfilesv/picv15210.php
The Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis, “New Cathedral” (1907) faces north,
cathedralstl.org/intro/
and Basilica of St Louis, King of France “Old Cathedral” (1818) faces north.

The above parishes existed prior to these dates, the dates are the cornerstones of the currrent edifices.

The practice was not conformed to exclusivey in recent centuries. For many reasons

In the Middle East i beleive the practice was to face towards Jerusalem when praying. Both priest and congregation.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

Aside - church architecture has gone downhill IMO. The new cathedral in LA is, IMO, awful. Nothing that sets the spirit soaring as good church architecture and symbolism should. its why the church was often built on the highest hill in a town and was among the tallest buildings in the town.

The school of architecture at Notre Dame is seeing a resurgence of interest in the more “symbolicl” form of church design. That is good IMO.

From an article I recent read some of the specific signs of historic Christian church architecture are: columns, celing, steps, altar, walls, cathedra, ambo, water, side altars, stations, baldaching. Each has a meaning ties to the CVhurch and Scripture.

I look at plans for the now being built Our Lady of the Most Holy Trinity Chapel and compare them to the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels in LA. IMO only one invites to prayer and worship.

Sorry for going off into a tangent.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Aside - church architecture has gone downhill IMO. The new cathedral in LA is, IMO, awful. Nothing that sets the spirit soaring as good church architecture and symbolism should. its why the church was often built on the highest hill in a town and was among the tallest buildings in the town.

Sorry for going off into a tangent.

Continuing off topic. I disagree with you on on LA Catheral. I have been to Our Lady of the Angesl. I read up on it before I went, it’s architecture, etc, and I planned to hate it. Well, I fell in love with it. My daughter sang there with the St. Louis Archdiocesan Children’s choir 3 years ago. The sound, the organ, the mass, with all the incense were wonderful. The gardens, especially the Our Lady of Guadaloupe highway overhang were beautiful. I liked it’s presence on a major thoroughfare. The bells were beautiful.

We have many beautiful Gothic churches in St. Louis. Our Cathedral is Romanesque/Byzantine. Absolutely beautiful.

I doubt we could recreate the old, and each period has it’s own architecture.

My own parish church is pretty awful “mid 20th century modern.” It was remodeled after Vatican II, and is so plain. Yet, in the plainness the Crucifix is all the more central to the Sanctuary. It draws your eye and attention. It is backlit at night, so you can’t help noticing it when you walk or drive by.

Peace

 

[ebed_melech]

I have great respect for Dr. Hahn. I think he makes the complex accessible for many people who would otherwise not pick up a theology text or even a catechism. He has an original style of presentation, and is an original thinker and synthesizer of ideas from various streams of tradition. (I think such a combination of strengths also plays well to anyone involved in Biblical Theology, where convergence and integration are as important as breadth and depth in many different disciplines.) Those types of qualities are very rarely all found in a single individual, so it is good to see them used theologically by man very committed to orthodoxy and orthopraxy.

The Church has suffered enough with theologians who are brilliantly wrong!

That said, sometimes I wish that he would also write some more scholarly texts. He has MUCH to offer there as well…I think it is something of an untapped well from an academic publishing vantage point (although you see it from time to time in various publications, mostly out of his St. Paul Center).

But when it happens , I guarantee it will be like a sip from a fire hydrant.

In ICXC,

Gordo

 

[Joe_5859]

That said, sometimes I wish that he would also write some more scholarly texts. He has MUCH to offer there as well…I think it is something of an untapped well from an academic publishing vantage point (although you see it from time to time in various publications, mostly out of his St. Paul Center).

I believe that Dr. Hahn has recognized this need as well and is doing much towards that end, particularly through the St. Paul Center. Most notably is the annual Letter & Spirit Journal put out by the Center. The third volume just came out a month or so ago, and Dr. Hahn has a lengthy article in each volume, in addition to the other contributors.

He has also been publishing articles in scholarly journals more frequently in recent years. I think I’ve come across some of those on the St. Paul Center website as well.

 

[KarlAdam]

Many of Dr. Hahn’s scholarly articles are on-line here.

 

[rien]

I believe that Dr. Hahn has recognized this need as well and is doing much towards that end, particularly through the St. Paul Center. Most notably is the annual Letter & Spirit Journal put out by the Center. The third volume just came out a month or so ago, and Dr. Hahn has a lengthy article in each volume, in addition to the other contributors.

He has also been publishing articles in scholarly journals more frequently in recent years. I think I’ve come across some of those on the St. Paul Center website as well.

Letter & Spirit is very deep and scholarly -Dr. Hahn has contributed to the now 3 issues.

It is deep but worth purchasing I’d say. try the current issue and then if you want that kind of depth get the earlier 2, I think it is, issues.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Several Traditional Catholics dislike his feminine theology regarding the Holy Ghost ie: the Holy Ghost is the feminine part of the trinity. Other than this, he is very orthodox, and I enjoy much of his writing.

I have an acquaintance who says that the feminine idea comes from symbolic language that the Syriac Fathers used.

 

[Volodymyr_988]

I would not disagree with you assessment here. Especially the assessement of being a post VII protestant convert to the faith post Vatican II, and the implications thereof. As such, Hahn comes from the same “perpsective” of many of the popular conservative Catholic apologists today. They are probably very reluctant to question authority in any way whatsoever - even in prudential practical matters - since they have converted from Protestantism which is based on the all-out rejection of authority in the first place.

That is one of the reasons why, I think, when you read their works and hear their tapes, etc. you will often here post-VII documents cited along with Scripture verses and* very* early Christian writings, but less commonly do you hear of what went on in between say 500 AD and 1960 AD - not too many quotes from Trent, Florence, etc. in their lectures. And you won’t often hear a tape series or lecture on authentic ecumenism, the social reign of Christ the King, the true nature of religous liberty, or EENS, etc. Some things are just not on the agenda as they are somewhat in a confused state right now with the hierarchy not really speaking clearly to them. As such, these aplogists won’t either - it’s just not in their “makeup”.

And you are correct, in that professional Catholic apologists would put the muzzle on themselves the minute they would critique anything relating to VII. Even acknowledging the troubling ambiguous nature of the documents is tatamount to a blacklisting (seems to me anyway) - and so they must “look the other way” on some issues in order to keep doing what they are doing.

That being said, I appreciate their zeal and their sincerety and do find their material on the basic apologetics very helpful in defending against the usual attacks on the Catholic faith.

And call me naive, but I think they are a step away from embracing traditional issues as well, but need the assurance of the hierarchy (especially the pope) to proceed. The more Pope Benedict XVI continues the move to more traditional clarity in things like the recent Motu Proprio, the more these convert apologists will follow.

For instance - I hardly noticed it before “discovering” tradition, but were some subtle (and some not so subtle) attacks on traditionalists in some of their work. Kind of a discounting the “traditionalist” arguments without really addressing them in detail. I’m seeing less of this since the recent MP - I think things like this (along with the wonderful mass and awesome homily on EWTN that followed) will produce many good things and a softening of the hostility between the “conservative” and “traditional” camps in the future.

Let’s hope and pray we see such moves from the Holy Father in areas such as ecumenism, religious liberty, etc. and well as a continued strenghtening of the traditional liturgy.

I truly believe that there are two stong forces within the Church laity and both love the Church and the Lord dearly - the “conservative” catholic and the “traditional” catholic - when we finally get on the same page…look out! And I think, in the end, the one to bring this about is the pope. And he’s got alot of folks (and supernatural forces) fighting him on this.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

I’m sorry, but I’d rather hear what the Earliest of the Fathers have had to say than what the Scholastics think.

People!

Catholicism existed for hundreds of years before the Council of Trent!!!:banghead:

 

[Volodymyr_988]

Because that was the only Mass these saints had at the time.

St. Charbel didn’t celebrate the TLM.:tsktsk:

 

[ebed_melech]

I have an acquaintance who says that the feminine idea comes from symbolic language that the Syriac Fathers used.

Da!

Just read the Odes of Solomon…

Gordo

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’m sorry, but I’d rather hear what the Earliest of the Fathers have had to say than what the Scholastics think.

People!

Catholicism existed for hundreds of years before the Council of Trent!!!:banghead:

say it isn’t so!:crying:

 

[vocatio]

Okay, I’ll admit it…It was listening and reading Scott Hahn that began to solidify my understand about the faith that was lost to said “clown masses” in a former diocese that I grew up in. The Lamb’s Supper, Fourth Cup, Hail Holy Queen, Conversion Story, etc. are all series and books that I have been exposed to…read or listened to to point of drowning out misunderstandings and false beliefs that were drilled in my head. I was on my journey trying to become a Protestant minister with some resistance from home. Now my wife is very supportive of me in discerning the diaconate. Had I grown up in a better diocese and family (not mixed) and supportive family I’d be a priest today.

Scott Hahn Rocks. He expressed so much of his struggle in a way that mimicked my struggles and where I was at. I fought like heck not to become Catholic again but finally realized that God has my ticket and I finally understood many teachings that I never understood. Scott helped me cross several bridges but it was Fr. Corapi, Fr. Mitch Packwa and Fr. Groschel along with our local Friars that helped me connect the dots, not to mention our wonderful former Adult Faith Formation Director now hand picked to lead Adult Faith Formation at the Diocese level. The keey seems to be with Franciscan University. Our new Adutlt Faith Formation is also gaining fast and a Franciscan University graduate that has asked me to help him research materials to start our Adult CCD program next fall. I’m stoked to say the least. I’m an evangelist at heart and can’t help but try to teach everyone at all times.

My son has listened to several CD’s with me and he is on fire with the faith. He’s 13 and wants to be a priest. We are very happy about that. We know what Scott’s secret is…one woman one man for life through think and think no matter what and tied to daily devotions of blessing your children, praying with them and studying the bibile…now adding Catechetical training and obedience to the Majisterium.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I finally understood many teachings that I never understood. Scott helped me cross several bridges but it was Fr. Corapi, Fr. Mitch Packwa and Fr. Groschel along with our local Friars that helped me connect the dots, I’m stoked to say the least. I’m an evangelist at heart and can’t help but try to teach everyone at all times.

My son has listened to several CD’s with me and he is on fire with the faith. He’s 13 and wants to be a priest. We are very happy about that. We know what Scott’s secret is…one woman one man for life through think and think no matter what and tied to daily devotions of blessing your children, praying with them and studying the bibile…now adding Catechetical training and obedience to the Majisterium.

Wow, thanks for your testimony. As a cradle Catholic, I believed but didn’t understand everything. Scott Hahn helped me understand a lot of what CC teaches and the beautiful mystery behind it all. He helped me develop a greater love for the Eucharist (Lamb’s Supper) and the importance of being with and blessing your children.

Unfortunately, my ex-husband was not on the same train. Having a faithful father is important to a child’s faith formation. Shortly after our divorce, mu children and I were at mass, and my daughter said, “I didn’t know men went to church.” I said, “what do you mean, there’s Mr. So and So, and Mr. This and That.” and she said, “I used to think they only went because there wives made them.”

I am happy your son is on fire with the faith and wants to be a priest. I will pray for your family. I am praying for my kids, who are floundering. I have to remember I am an instrument in God’s hands, a steward not a master of His gifts.

 

[rien]

Okay, I’ll admit it…It was listening and reading Scott Hahn that began to solidify my understand about the faith that was lost to said “clown masses” in a former diocese that I grew up in. The Lamb’s Supper, Fourth Cup, Hail Holy Queen, Conversion Story, etc. are all series and books that I have been exposed to…read or listened to to point of drowning out misunderstandings and false beliefs that were drilled in my head. I was on my journey trying to become a Protestant minister with some resistance from home. Now my wife is very supportive of me in discerning the diaconate. Had I grown up in a better diocese and family (not mixed) and supportive family I’d be a priest today.

Scott Hahn Rocks. He expressed so much of his struggle in a way that mimicked my struggles and where I was at. I fought like heck not to become Catholic again but finally realized that God has my ticket and I finally understood many teachings that I never understood. Scott helped me cross several bridges but it was Fr. Corapi, Fr. Mitch Packwa and Fr. Groschel along with our local Friars that helped me connect the dots, not to mention our wonderful former Adult Faith Formation Director now hand picked to lead Adult Faith Formation at the Diocese level. The keey seems to be with Franciscan University. Our new Adutlt Faith Formation is also gaining fast and a Franciscan University graduate that has asked me to help him research materials to start our Adult CCD program next fall. I’m stoked to say the least. I’m an evangelist at heart and can’t help but try to teach everyone at all times.

My son has listened to several CD’s with me and he is on fire with the faith. He’s 13 and wants to be a priest. We are very happy about that. We know what Scott’s secret is…one woman one man for life through think and think no matter what and tied to daily devotions of blessing your children, praying with them and studying the bibile…now adding Catechetical training and obedience to the Majisterium.

Nice testimony. Its great to see such support for Scott Hahn on the traditional forum.

 

[vocatio]

Wow…if you think that’s a good testinmony…you should hear my wife’s. She’s the daughter of an edler in the Church of Christ. Two of her brothers are Preachers. We have a bunch of Preachers for nephews and neices husbands. It’s a regular army when we have a family reunion. If you know anything about the Church of Christ then you know that it doesn’t get much more anti-Catholic than that. Just the fact that she converted to Catholicism is a miracle.

I was so frustrated with Catholicism and deeply hurt by many bad clergy that I truly feared many things. I’ve talked about it once in a while to educate or inspire others who love to hang on the the priest abuse issue to further abuse Catholicism. My wife in essence came to the table unexpectedly with me. I discovered and brought to her attention the ancient church fathers. I also discovered the didache which floored us, turning white as a ghost. Jimmy Akin also knocked some sense into my head whe he said on Catholic Answers Radio “would you leave Peter because of Judas”. And several Orthodox priests that told me while seeking to become Orthodox that it seemed more like I was running from issues rather than seeking truth and pointed out that priest abuses were highly overstated…pointing out the many Protestants - not to mention the public school teacdhers - guilty of abusing children. Now, my wife is hooked on the Saints…St. Francis de Sayles…St. [Pardre] Pio, St. Jon Bosco, St. Faustina, etc. She loves the Divine Mercy. Her Saint name is Faustina. She thought she was picking an unknown Saint so that she could get her mostly by herself. She says why read or listen to Scott Hahn when we can just go to the Saints and such. She likes him but is truly facinated more by a world unknown to her during her entire faith formation.

We experienced very deep conversion that has changed our life dramatically to the point of creating a major shrine of a prayer corner, something taboo in many Protestant/Fundamental homes. Only one of her family members knows. Her father was an awesome man. More on other links. They are very strong scripturally as I have learned to be now. But I know something they don’t know…the Bible is very Catholic and they have no clue how to explain things that are uniquely Catholic without it sounding like a miracle of an interpretation. We love them and realize that they have no idea because they have been mislead. We hope and pray for their conversion. But for our families peace of mind we have to keep our conversion to ourselves. That is partly why I am on these boards.

 

[allhers]

I like the TLM, the NO, Charismatics and Dr. Scott Hahn.
I would walk out of a “clown Mass” (report it to the Bishop), and thankfully have never been to one.

 

[vocatio]

What I’m calling a “clown mass” is anything out of the norm. I konw about the actual clown mass. Shame shame.

BTW. I pray contantly for all of you guys, clergy, religious, and victims. My wife and I discussed this at length before our convalidation…had both of us grown up in a faithful Catholic home we firmly realize and believe that we would both have chosen religious vocations. But we also believe that God gave us this and brought us together. So strengthen the domestic church people. Learn to suffer for others. Give yourselves for your children as Christ gives himself for us. Don’t live life selfishly, live it for God by making real sacrifices for your children and spouses. That is what Scott and Kimberly Hahn do. That is the secret of the covenant relationship I believe. Too many people are looking for the easy way out of their situation piling it high with excuses. There is a sacrifice in marriage that brings about vocations in the domestic church. That is why the Church is suffering so much. This has always been our priority…God, family, others and then career and extranious desires. I still believe this is best.

Pray for us too please.

 

[CSJ]

Scott Hahn has been very influential in my Catholic studies. He is very gifted in explaining complex theology in laymen’s terms. His book “The Lamb’s Supper” is a book worth reading 2 - 3 times over just to take in everything.