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Bookcat
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Quote: “Mother Teresa wore a cilice, a strap secured around the thigh that inflicts pain with inward-pointing spikes.”
christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/februaryweb-only/16-11.0.html?start=2
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christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/februaryweb-only/16-11.0.html?start=2
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JimR-OCDS
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Call it what you want in order to make it sound nicer, but self-flagellation, or the wearing of a cilice to inflict pain, is self abuse and should not be done.
Any competent mental health expert would tell you so, but did it in accord with his upbringing.
Also, the author of the first link, wrote that Pope John Paul II used self-flagellation, has never been proven and there are those who were close to the Pope who deny that he did.
If it was in fact true that he did, well he was wrong to do so.
Jim
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Bookcat
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Please cease calling it “self -flagellation”. Use the term from spiritual theology -thanks.
Such needs no defense really.
And yes I am going to take it that the Priest there from Opus Dei knows of what he speaks. And though I am not in Opus Dei -I know this Priest and he is a fine Priest -and a Senior Fellow – of Dr. Scott Hahn’s Center for Biblical Theology.
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Bookcat
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The Catholic Church does not agree.
Including countless Saints, Blesseds, Spiritual writers, Spiritual Theology, etc etc.
Yes certain forms of corporal mortification - need extra care and direction …But so does certain forms of exercise and sport.
That being said - *I *am not too good even at fasting…and exercise!
(or even head aches…)
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JimR-OCDS
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I’ll call it what it is, self-flagellation.
We don’t need to censer ourselves just to satisfy the sensitivities of those who practice this disturbing method of mortification.
Jim
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Bookcat
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The Catholic Church does not agree.
Including countless Saints, Blesseds, Spiritual writers, Spiritual Theology, etc etc.
Yes certain forms of corporal mortification - need extra care and direction …but so does certain forms of exercise and sport.
That being said - *I *am not too good even at fasting…and exercise! (let alone sports…)
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JimR-OCDS
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The Church opposes self-inflicted pain as a method of mortification, and only allows limited use but not without strict supervision, which most people do not have.
The Church’s defense of the practice by the saints has to be understood correctly.
The Saints who practiced this form of mortification came from a time and culture where capital punishment, torture and of course corporal forms of punishment on men women and children were the norm.
We don’t flog people anymore, but that was common in the days of most of the saints.
Such forms of mortification created more demons than the few saints we know about.
Jim
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Bookcat
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Hum…contradictory statement.
Your simply not correct on various things in this thread.
I refer readers to the Church…and the article I posted.forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=11727896&postcount=56
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Bookcat
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Catholic Answers Senior Apologist: ncregister.com/blog/jimmy-akin/stunner_pope_practiced_self-mortification
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JimR-OCDS
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Jimmy Akin’s doesn’t come out and say Pope John Paul II practiced self-flagellation, but mortification responding to a secular media report which had the title, “Pope John Paul II Whipped Himself,” which of course was never proven, but from the words of the house maid.
Either way, I disagree with the practice of self inflicted pain of the flesh through whipping oneself, or wearing of devices which pierce or cause irritation of the skin.
Heck after all, you may not be doing it hard enough.
In a forum which is plagued with people suffering with scrupulosity, the last thing we need is promotion of self-inflicting abuse.
Jim
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Bookcat
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I imagine such was not simply from the “words of the house maid”…the postulator would have come out and said- oh it is not proven…etc.
Anyhow even if he did not – others did and do and the Church is not opposed to the use of the discipline (spiritual direction though is important).
And the reason for that last link there --was not so much directed then to of he did nor did not -but about the subject in general. That w Readers can read Jimmy Akin on the this subject there.
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Bookcat
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Yes I know you disagree.Either way, I disagree with the practice of self inflicted pain of the flesh through whipping oneself, or wearing of devices which pierce or cause irritation of the skin.
Heck after all, you may not be doing it hard enough.
In a forum which is plagued with people suffering with scrupulosity, the last thing we need is promotion of self-inflicting abuse.
Jim
But the *Catholic Church *does not.
As to those with scrupulosity – shall we suggest not discussing what is sin -or other things for fear that they will take things the wrong way? No.
It has been said repeatedly. By me and in the articles that have been posted and by others -that those who would think about such forms of mortification --ought to seek out say a spiritual director…
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JimR-OCDS
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Bookcat
You know as well as I do, that this is not an infallible doctrine.
On the other hand, telling such people that self-flagellation is approved by the Church, could only cause them to harm themselves, even when adding the disclaimer, that it must be rare and only done under supervision.
In fact I would go on to say that if a spiritual director today would suggest to a person that they should inflict physical pain upon themselves through flagellation or wearing a cilice, they probably aren’t fit to be spiritual directors and are dangerous persons to be directing of anyone.
Jim
But the Church today does have issues with the practice and to even suggest that it’s OK, is wrong.
You know as well as I do, that this is not an infallible doctrine.
Discussing what sin is, is what helps a person with scrupulosity because they have a distorted understanding of what sin is.
On the other hand, telling such people that self-flagellation is approved by the Church, could only cause them to harm themselves, even when adding the disclaimer, that it must be rare and only done under supervision.
What if the spiritual director is a psychopath himself as others have suffered under in the past ?
In fact I would go on to say that if a spiritual director today would suggest to a person that they should inflict physical pain upon themselves through flagellation or wearing a cilice, they probably aren’t fit to be spiritual directors and are dangerous persons to be directing of anyone.
Jim
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LilyPearls
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Proof please.
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JimR-OCDS
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Go back through the thread. It’s been posted repeatedly that the practice must be rarely done and under the supervision of a spiritual director.
Jim
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Bookcat
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No. Such is incorrect.
And I have fully explained the matter via my posts and provided links.
Readers may read such above, from the Opus Dei Priest and Jimmy Akin the Senior Apologist of Catholic answers.
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Bookcat
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Such is your view of what will happen. It would be quite incorrect to say “could only cause them to harm themselves”.
Most people are not going to run out and start such a practice…
And it is called the “discipline”.
I am in good company in presenting the reality that such is a legit practice in the Church (I am not encouraging such…but providing correct theological answers).
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LilyPearls
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Advising that something should be rarely done and always under supervision is an entirely different thing than the Church taking issue with it. The Church takes issue with women being priests and contraceptives, not asceticism and mortification. The only “proof” in this thread against corporal mortification is a couple people saying it is wrong, and only on their word. Whereas others have posted multiple links to articles written by apologists in favour of the practice and also examples of modern saints who mortified themselves.
In asking for proof I’m asking for an example of a church teaching or some other solid proof that the church actually does take issue with it. You did mention something St Therese said, but in my opinon she was not against mortification of the flesh, she simply did not feel drawn to it before she entered Carmel. She says:
“Far from resembling beautiful souls who practiced every kind of mortification from their childhood, I had no attraction for this…My mortifications consisted in breaking my will,…in holding back a reply, in rendering little services without recognition, in not leaning my back against a support when seated.” (Story of a Soul, p. 143)
She calls people practice corporal mortification “beautiful souls”, other translations translating it as “holy souls”. She is not against it, it is simply not her calling. She was created to show the world the Little Way. The way for ordinary people like herself, not the way of those beautiful, holy souls capabale of great sacrifices and great deeds.
And then she became a Discalced Carmelite Nun! A group of Religious Women who devote their lives to prayer and penances (including corporal mortifications). You yourself are a Carmelite and so I’m very perplexed at why you sincerely believe a nun in such an austere order was completely against corporal mortification.
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Bookcat
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Such what if’s are often not helpful but rather set up invalid arguments.
Now normally a Spiritual Director will not be “suggesting” such.
But it would be *very incorrect *to suggest that a spiritual director who would suggest or direct one in this kind of legit mortification are not for that reason - fit to be spiritual directors and are dangerous persons to be directing anyone.
One would thereby be inferring that those of such as Opus Dei are unfit…
Indeed such would be inferring that the *Carthusian Order *-which is held in very high regard in the Church and by the Popes – is full of unfit and dangerous directors. They wear the hair shirt for example…among their penitential practices.
Such practices of mortification are not opposed by the Church.
Yes caution is needed. Yes have a director/confessor … Yes normally mortifications are of the more usual sense – smaller things. Yes someone can go astray with this (as with anything). Yes one is to be cautioned (as I and Jimmy etc have done) not to just do such…
But yes it an accepted spiritual practice.
(though as I noted above - I do not myself do well even with fasting on Ash Weds! …or with a splinter!..)
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JimR-OCDS
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Bookcat
The Church does have issues with it and doesn’t allow it as a normal practice as it did in the past.
Jim
Such is correct even by your own post where the Church states that it is rare and done under the supervision of a spiritual director.
The Church does have issues with it and doesn’t allow it as a normal practice as it did in the past.
Yeah, that’s what I’m using.
Jim
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