Scourging Oneself?

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JimR-OCDS said:
Bookcat

Such is correct even by your own post where the Church states that it is rare and done under the supervision of a spiritual director.

The Church does have issues with it and doesn’t allow it as a normal practice as it did in the past.

Yeah, that’s what I’m using.

Jim
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Nope.
 
Bookcat
Such what if’s are often not helpful but rather set up invalid arguments.
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Except that those z"what if’s" I ask about, in fact happened in the past.

Heck, the nuns and brothers who taught in Catholic Schools, used abusive measures in disciplining children, which would have them in jail today. This abuse came out of the mindset of the past, where corporal punishment and mortification’s were the norm.
Now normally a Spiritual Director will not be “suggesting” such.
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Yeah, we’d like to believe this. :rolleyes:
But it would be *very incorrect *to suggest that a spiritual director who would suggest or direct one in this kind of legit mortification are not for that reason - fit to be spiritual directors and are dangerous persons to be directing anyone.
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In today’s world with what we know in the areas of psychology, if a spiritual director suggested to a person under their direction to use self-flagellation or wearing of a cilice, they are not fit for the job.
One would thereby be inferring that those of such as Opus Dei are unfit…
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There are some issues many in the Church have with Opus Dei on this issue.
Indeed such would be inferring that the *Carthusian Order *-which is held in very high regard in the Church and by the Popes – is full of unfit and dangerous directors. They wear the hair shirt for example…among their penitential practices.
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And penitential practices such as fasting, spending time in silence, etch are different forms of mortification from which I’m talking about.

I’m referring to self-flagellation and the wearing of a cilice, which causes pain to the physical body, not just discomfort, as fasting does.
Such practices of mortification are not opposed by the Church.
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Neither do I, but you’re lumping all the discussion on mortification together, which I am being specific.
Yes caution is needed. Yes have a director/confessor … Yes normally mortifications are of the more usual sense – smaller things. Yes someone can go astray with this (as with anything). Yes one is to be cautioned (as I and Jimmy etc have done) not to just do such…
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One is to be cautioned as they say, but why ? If it’s indeed risks being harmful and people do in fact go overboard as the scrupulous will so often do, then it should not be done, nor recommended, period.
But yes it an accepted spiritual practice.
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Was.

The majority of spiritual directors today would be opposed to it. None of the OCD Friars I know, would approve of it, even rarely.

Jim
 
Bookcat, if you want to beat yourself silly, go ahead.

Just keep it to yourself or you could end up being committed to a mental health institution with restraints. 😃

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Bookcat, if you want to beat yourself silly, go ahead.

Just keep it to yourself or you could end up being committed to a mental health institution with restraints. 😃

Jim
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Who said I wanted to beat myself?
 
JimR-OCDS said:
In today’s world with what we know in the areas of psychology, if a spiritual director suggested to a person under their direction to use self-flagellation or wearing of a cilice, they are not fit for the job.
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Again incorrect. Such blanket statements are simply invalid.

Oh and a number in the psychology field need some good spiritual direction…and heck maybe a cilice, :rolleyes:
 
JimR-OCDS said:
There are some issues many in the Church have with Opus Dei on this issue.
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Sure and many in the Church have issues of wanting abortion and contraception etc etc…

The Magisterium of the Church approves and supports Opus Dei.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
And penitential practices such as fasting, spending time in silence, etch are different forms of mortification from which I’m talking about.

I’m referring to self-flagellation and the wearing of a cilice, which causes pain to the physical body, not just discomfort, as fasting does.m
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Sure and so do others who use the forms we are discussing. Not following here. Please read what I wrote again. I think you missed the words “hair shirt” there…
 
Bookcat said:
Indeed such would be inferring that the *Carthusian Order *-which is held in very high regard in the Church and by the Popes – is full of unfit and dangerous directors. They wear the hair shirt for example…among their penitential practices.

Such practices of mortification (as we have been discussing) are not opposed by the Church.
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I really don’t understand what all the upset is about a person who chooses to perform a Ritual.
Whether this ritual is scourging oneself, Fasting for several days, or walking on one’s knees for a mile (or more) to a Holy Site.

There are many different reasons why someone chooses to try a new Ritual.
Many people try different rituals (at least once) to see if performing it will (somehow) give them deeper spirituality.
While I choose to not scourge myself, if I thought that GOD wanted me to do so, I would do it.
Many spiritual people desperately want to seek God’s Will (including myself).
A powerful Ritual may open the mind up for few seconds, so as to see more clearly different perspectives.

Human beings think like humans, and God thinks like God, AND people (unfortunately) cannot think like God
This makes attempting to do God’s Will, like a Blind person trying to follow an ever-winding path.
Sometimes a person will be lucky-enough to have an Insight, which may give them a clue as to God’s Will
This Insight makes part of that path visible for a few seconds : Like looking through a Glass darkly.
But, this Insight does not come often (or, often enough).

Many Catholics believe in Fasting (and I am one of those believers).
On Ash Wednesday (and Good Friday), it has LONG been Church doctrine for Catholics to attempt a Fast.
Recently, the Church loosened up, and made Fasting a reduced-calorie day.
This may have been to make the Church more mainstream, but whatever.

For many years, I had eaten a dinner on Mardi Gras, and fasted until after Church on Easter.
Even though I didn’t advertize it, I had “Help” from mis-guided people that I was not being rational (somehow).
A few years ago, I met a woman who Fasts from dinner on Palm Sunday until Easter.
She, too, had heard a lot of well-meaning people call her practice “Crazy” or worse.

The human body is pretty resiliant. People were designed be able to starve for several days.
In fact, it is said that Jesus Himself fasted for over a month (and other Bible characters).
The same goes for scourging. God designed humans to withstand the aftermath of scourging.
In fact, Jesus Himself was scourged.
So, I think that people who don’t quite understand deep spirituality will always be in the dark about certain practices that some deeply spiritual people do. I think this is just fine. Just as Jesus talked in Parables, so that most non-spiritual people would not understand … that same mystery clouds the eyes of many people about them performing various Rituals.
 
One thing to keep in mind on this topic is that in all forms of mortification…whether it’s getting out of bed with a bit of a forced spark…especially when you don’t want to get out bed…or whether it’s a day’s fast…a held remark…or the use of the discipline…should be done with God. In a running conversation with God.

It should be in fact prayer, a conversation with God. Mortification is a form of prayer…a prayer of the senses. We are Simon of Cyrene struggling and suffering WITH our Lord, helping Him do His work.

It’s a way of drawing closer to Him. Unity. Sure it’s also an exercise of the will…training the will, but it’s much much more.

But it really should be a way of uniting ourselves to Jesus. Our suffering becomes part of the redemptive act which continues in the eyes of the Father. Jesus is always…to this day…at each Holy Mass offering Himself to the Father. And we can join Him in our joys and in our suffering.

As we age…and experience the pains of our body breaking down…we should form an intention and offer up that suffering to God. Offer it all up for your children…and grandchildren NOT YET BORN. God isn’t bound in time…He can apply those graces any way He chooses.
 
ccmcmg said:
I know of some national politicians who do this, and are also members of Opus Dei. It is not a ‘myth’.
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Sometimes it feels like the national politicians do this to the poor of the country rather than to themselves
 
Edward H states :** “One thing to keep in mind on this topic is that in all forms of mortification…should be done with God. In a running conversation with God. It should be in fact prayer, a conversation with God.”**

This is one of those things that sounds good.
For a future Saint, she can keep her mind in a constant state of prayer.
But, the rest of us (the 99.9% of less-than-Saintly power), do not have the concentration level to live in that existence.

So, instead of coming off spiritual to me, it sounds like a person who :
  1. Does not live his Life in a constant prayer to God, or
  2. Is trying to make others feel obligated to live their Life like a future Saint.
Most of us Christians do NOT have overwhelming powers of concentration, or endless patience, or non-Stop love.
This is the reason (or, maybe one of the reasons) that people attempt Rituals … to be more spiritual.
 
4love2God said:
Edward H states :** “One thing to keep in mind on this topic is that in all forms of mortification…should be done with God. In a running conversation with God. It should be in fact prayer, a conversation with God.”**

This is one of those things that sounds good.
For a future Saint, she can keep her mind in a constant state of prayer.
But, the rest of us (the 99.9% of less-than-Saintly power), do not have the concentration level to live in that existence.

So, instead of coming off spiritual to me, it sounds like a person who :
  1. Does not live his Life in a constant prayer to God, or
  2. Is trying to make others feel obligated to live their Life like a future Saint.
Most of us Christians do NOT have overwhelming powers of concentration, or endless patience, or non-Stop love.
This is the reason (or, maybe one of the reasons) that people attempt Rituals … to be more spiritual.
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We are all called to holiness. To be saints. 100% of us.

Most of us are called to do this in the ordinary of the world. That is the message of Opus Dei.

opusdei.us/art.php?p=12224

One need not be a member of Opus Dei to do this or to see this as our vocation…it’s for nearly all of us, excepting those that are called in some fashion to the priestly or religious life. We all must strive to be saints of the ordinary.

The ordinary circumstances of life “provide” the raw material for our holiness, our sanctity, our sainthood.

What are those ordinary things? The little things…the little p(name removed by moderator)ricks of the day…the red lights, the flat tire, the dirty diapers, and the little joys too of course. And it can be the big things too: a very generous family life, a well run and ethical and cheerful business, a professional career offered to God, a 4 year college degree pursued with gratitude and loving effort…offered to God upon graduation. Infinite opportunity to grow in holiness in all of these things…that’s how incredibly generous God is!

It’s these little “passive” mortifications…the ones that are merely presented to us like a flat tire where we can find God and draw closer to Him, turning our little mortifications into a longer running prayer.

There are also “active” mortifications that can also be pursued to help us grow in virtue and closer in unity…the occasional cold shower, sitting up in our chair, better posture, well finished work, order in the home, repairing things right away around the house, holding an unkind comment, not gossiping, parking a little farther away, smiling when we don’t want to.
 
Edward_H said:
We are all called to holiness. To be saints. 100% of us.

Most of us are called to do this in the ordinary of the world. That is the message of Opus Dei.

opusdei.us/art.php?p=12224

One need not be a member of Opus Dei to do this or to see this as our vocation…it’s for nearly all of us, excepting those that are called in some fashion to the priestly or religious life. We all must strive to be saints of the ordinary.

The ordinary circumstances of life “provide” the raw material for our holiness, our sanctity, our sainthood.

What are those ordinary things? The little things…the little p(name removed by moderator)ricks of the day…the red lights, the flat tire, the dirty diapers, and the little joys too of course. And it can be the big things too: a very generous family life, a well run and ethical and cheerful business, a professional career offered to God, a 4 year college degree pursued with gratitude and loving effort…offered to God upon graduation. Infinite opportunity to grow in holiness in all of these things…that’s how incredibly generous God is!

It’s these little “passive” mortifications…the ones that are merely presented to us like a flat tire where we can find God and draw clear to Him, turning our little mortifications into a longer running prayer.

There are also 'active" mortifications that can also be pursued to help us grow in virtue and closer in unity…the occasional cold shower, sitting up in our chair, better posture, well finished work, order in the home, repairing things right away around the house, holding an unkind comment, not gossiping, parking a little farther away, smiling when we don’t want to.
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Thank you for your posts!
 
Of course the topic of this thread isn’t about ordinary mortification’s that Christians offer up, but the extreme, “Scourging Oneself.”

So the question is, how many here do it ?

Jim
 
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