Scratch an atheist and you will find a skeptic!

  • Thread starter Thread starter Vera_Ljuba
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
As I’ve observed from you with nigh-perfect consistency, yours is a problem of paradigm.

Allow me to illuminate:

“Fundamentalism” is not a solely religious word. As I have a penchant for Oxford concerning general definitions, here it is:

In this context, however, both seem to be fairly apt.

When you “scratch an atheist and find a fundamentalist”, you’re revealing that the atheist in question has lodged most of their religious counter-arguments against a very specific interpretation of some religious thing (usually a text).

They will generally insist that their interpretation of the text on behalf of the religion is the correct one, thus others are not - even if those other interpretations are provided by confessed practitioners of the religion in question. As such, the atheist’s counter arguments are axiomatically valid as their “fundamentally correct” interpretation is “really” the right one. :rolleyes:

This is a behavior I’ve seen the thread-starter engage in quite a few times, interestingly. 😉
Yes.

Exhibit # 78978324 of Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist (SAAFAF)



NB: the above was posted by reddit atheists
 
It’s hard to generalize about atheists and how they understand the Bible.

I think many have read the Bible because they were fundamentalist Christians at one time, so now they take delight in ridiculing a literalist approach. Yes, when you scratch those atheists you find their former selves.

But other atheists have never read the Bible. They don’t seem to care either way.

I think it’s rare to find an atheist-materialist who is fundamentalist about his own views. Dawkins is, somewhat - but he backs away from the implications of materialism when really questioned. Rosenberg, who wrote “The Atheist’s Guide to Reality” is a fundamentalist materialist. There are a few others who attempt a hard-core acceptance of blind, unguided, unintelligent materialist determinism. Interesting that Rosenberg actually attempted to speak for all atheists. There is kind of an atheistic magisterium - big-name leaders to make claims about “what atheism is” and what its beliefs are. But there are heretics also.

Nobody gets kicked out of the atheist community for false belief. There are atheists on CAF who believe in a supernatural world with godlike beings in it. But just as long as it’s not God, then they consider that atheism.
This is from Mark Shea:

“The division is generally not between Christians and Atheists. It’s between Christian Fundamentalists and Atheist Fundamentalists. Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist. Both Christian Fundamentalists and Atheist Fundamentalists have in common a flat-footed and simplistic approach to questions of faith, science, reason, and biblical interpretation”.
 
There appears to be a blind spot that a lot of Christians (and certainly some Catholics have) in regard to this thread in particular and to this matter in general. This is going to sound redundant and I always apologise before posting it (and I have to post it a lot more than you’d think) because it might generally be expected to generate an emoticon with rolled eyes or a brief ‘Duh?’, but here it is:

Atheists do not believe in God.

Yeah, hardly hold-the-front-page news, is it. But it is critical to bear it in mind when you are having a discussion with an atheist. Because, and this seems to be the difficult point to grasp, it is impossible to hold a fundamentalist view about something in which you don’t believe. In fact, apart from the fact that you don’t believe in it, that is the only view you can possibly have.

If you don’t believe in UFOs, you can have no views on how they fly or where they come from or what they contain. If you don’t believe in Bigfoot, you don’t have a view on how big he might be or where he goes in the winter. If you don’t believe in God, you don’t spend time pondering on why He drowned a complete planet load of people (yeah, including pregnant women).

However, just because I don’t believe in UFOs does not mean I cannot have a discussion with someone about them. Because (and this goes to the heart of the matter), every discussion will be based on what that person himself/herself personally believes about them.

So, if I am in discussion with someone who treats the flood as allegorical, I am not going to argue that God is a monster because he killed everyone, but we might have a friendly chat about how we might tell what is factual and what is meant to be allegorical. However, if the person believed it actually happened, then I will be entirely at liberty to ask why using a morning-after pill is wrong but drowning every single child on the planet is OK. I obviously do not believe He did it. Not because I’m not a fundamentalist but because, once more time, I don’t believe in God in the first place.

Now I appreciate that this might be difficult for some to grasp, especially if they have a mind-set that is determined to pigeon-hole others come what may or if a discussion consists of people with differing and even conflicting views (all too common, even on a forum representing a single denomination). But that is the case, at least as this atheist is concerned.

Your mileage with others may vary. Tell Mark
 
It’s hard to generalize about atheists and how they understand the Bible.

I think many have read the Bible because they were fundamentalist Christians at one time, so now they take delight in ridiculing a literalist approach. Yes, when you scratch those atheists you find their former selves.

But other atheists have never read the Bible. They don’t seem to care either way.

I think it’s rare to find an atheist-materialist who is fundamentalist about his own views. Dawkins is, somewhat - but he backs away from the implications of materialism when really questioned. Rosenberg, who wrote “The Atheist’s Guide to Reality” is a fundamentalist materialist. There are a few others who attempt a hard-core acceptance of blind, unguided, unintelligent materialist determinism. Interesting that Rosenberg actually attempted to speak for all atheists. There is kind of an atheistic magisterium - big-name leaders to make claims about “what atheism is” and what its beliefs are. But there are heretics also.

Nobody gets kicked out of the atheist community for false belief. There are atheists on CAF who believe in a supernatural world with godlike beings in it. But just as long as it’s not God, then they consider that atheism.
👍
 
Now I appreciate that this might be difficult for some to grasp, especially if they have a mind-set that is determined to pigeon-hole others come what may or if a discussion consists of people with differing and even conflicting views (all too common, even on a forum representing a single denomination). But that is the case, at least as this atheist is concerned.
I think that part of the point being made is that some atheists in question practice this very same thing. “You have the believe exactly this and here is why this exact thing (ergo your faith) is absolute baldurdash”.

I think you and I have had a few rounds that represents this perfectly; such as “Christians must think X, Y and Z in order to be Christian.”
 
I think you and I have had a few rounds that represents this perfectly; such as “Christians must think X, Y and Z in order to be Christian.”
You don’t seem to understand that what you describe is not compulsory for a Christian. It is a requirement for being a Christian.

Let me know if you don’t understand the difference and I’ll try harder to explain it.
 
Well, you got one thing right anyway.
What did I get wrong?

Honestly, I try to learn about atheism, but as I see it - there’s virtually nothing to it at all. It’s a philosophy of nothing. There is ultimately nothing - no meaning, purpose. No reason for human life – life which is claimed to be the product of blind, indifferent, unintelligent, unguided processes.

There’s really very little to talk about.

I think that’s why many atheists enjoy discussions on Christian sites because we do, actually, propose that there is a distinct meaning and purpose and direction to life. We seek to explore what that is – since the goal of our attention is the most perfect, joyful and love-filled goodness that a human can imagine.

It’s a pretty huge difference - wouldn’t you agree?
 
You don’t seem to understand that what you describe is not compulsory for a Christian. It is a requirement for being a Christian.

Let me know if you don’t understand the difference and I’ll try harder to explain it.
Unsurprisingly, QED.
 
Honestly, I try to learn about atheism, but as I see it - there’s virtually nothing to it at all. It’s a philosophy of nothing. There is ultimately nothing - no meaning, purpose. No reason for human life – life which is claimed to be the product of blind, indifferent, unintelligent, unguided processes.
See:
youtube.com/watch?v=SiJnCQuPiuo

for a defense of secular approaches to morality/purpose/etc against common theistic criticisms.
 
This is from Mark Shea:

“The division is generally not between Christians and Atheists. It’s between Christian Fundamentalists and Atheist Fundamentalists. Scratch an atheist, find a fundamentalist. Both Christian Fundamentalists and Atheist Fundamentalists have in common a flat-footed and simplistic approach to questions of faith, science, reason, and biblical interpretation”.
Even if this WOULD be true - and it false - the approach would be diametrically different.

The christian fundamentalist (and there is no reason to capitalize the words) start with the assumption that the Bible must be read literally… that the stories about talking snakes, resurrections, walking on water, turning water into wine, etc. describe literal truths. That the Earth was created in 6 literal days, about 6000 years ago. That Adam was created literally from dust, and Eve was a “rib-woman”. That the Earth was literally the center of the Universe.

For a very long time this was a general approach of the catholic church, too. Only when the actual, scientific EVIDENCE became overwhelming and made it impossible to ignore did the Catholic church stop digging in its “heels”, and was dragged, kicking and screaming somewhat closer to modern times. Evolution is no longer considered the work of the devil; Catholics are PERMITTED(!!! what a horrible approach) to accept it as correct, as long as they castrate the theory into a “guided” process.

This is NOT what the atheist “fundamentalist” say - whoever they might be. Educated atheists accept that there are literally correct events described in the bible. Also that there are stories, which are simply allegorical, to illustrate their points. And there are whole lot of nonsense stories, fairy tales.

The problem is with the Catholic approach is that they do not have a method to separate the goat from the sheep. When some problematic part is being offered for discussion, they do not have a “Catholic Annotated Bible”, written by the magisterium, all they can say that some parts cannot be read literally, that they cannot be taken out of context. If they are just allegories, then what were the actual events they are supposed describe. That might even be acceptable IF they would present argument to show HOW those parts SHOULD be interpreted. But that is never forthcoming. It is always a generic “refutation in the form of ‘UR’ wrong!”.

It is rather amusing that one can select a passage which allegedly contains God’s OWN actual words, like Isaiah 45:7 “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”, which shows that God is personally responsible for the “evil” in the world, and the apologists cannot offer some alternate interpretation, all they can say: “out of context!!!”. Or there is Luke 19:27 “But as for these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slaughter them before me.” A parable, but very transparent. Jesus - himself! - commands to kill all the worshippers of other gods, and all the non-believers.

The church had over 2000 years to give guidance to these and similar passages, but it did not. The usual cop-out is that it is NOT the job of the church to nitpick any details, it’s job is to guide everyone toward the “Truth”, toward God. How can they hope to do that without coming clean about their teachings? To call it a “mystery” is totally unsatisfying.
 
Here’s example #* of SAAFAF.

In response to the concept of God speaking something into existence, we find this response:
I don’t know what that means. Speaking involves sending sound waves through the air by vibrating your vocal cords. How does doing that make a universe?
 
This, from Mark Shea:

"So often, atheists and fundamentalists don’t disagree about things so much as they disagree about whether the things they agree on are good or bad. Atheists and fundamentalists agree, for instance, that Genesis is a science textbook. They merely disagree on whether it is a good or a bad science textbook. They agree that the Bible is supposed to be the Big Book about Everything. They merely disagree about whether it does a good job filling that role. And they agree that spiritual things and intellectual things are separate and opposed to one another. They merely disagree about whether faith or reason should come out on top."Mark P. Shea: Sacraments: The Sacrament of Confirmation, Part 10

My faves:
-Atheists and fundamentalists agree that Genesis is a science textbook.

Catholicism understands that Genesis is NOT a science textbook, anymore than “Your eyes are limpid pools of light” is an Ophthalmological treatise

-[Atheists and fundamentalists agree that] Spiritual things and intellectual things are separate and opposed to one another.
Catholicism understands that spiritual things (faith) and intellectual things (reason)
are 2 wings upon which the human spirit rises to contemplate the truth.
 
-Spiritual things and intellectual things are separate and opposed to one another.
I mean, you were literally just participating in a discussion where one of the Catholics was taking this position:
If you are using logic to prove that the doctrine on the Trinity is false, then your approach fails for reasons I’ve given.

We learned the doctrine of the Trinity from the teaching of Christ. It is not an idea that was deduced through logic or philosophical speculation. The teaching was given as true statement which can only be accepted on the basis of Faith. The teaching cannot be falsified by human reasoning since it transcends reason.
 
I mean, you were literally just participating in a discussion where one of the Catholics was taking this position:
Yep. Here’s that fundamentalist lens you’re using again.

QED.

Try to think Both/And not Either/Or.

Try to think Both/And not Onlys or Alones.

We don’t use Faith Alone or Reason Alone.

Anymore than you use use Geometry Alone or Syllogisms Alone.

You recognize that the GA or SA is rather silly, right?
 
And this, from Mark Shea:

“In the case of the New Atheists, there is an increasing inability to break free of the mindset that “If you’ve seen only Abrahamic religion, you’ve seen 'em all”. Consequently, my reader attempts to ooga booga me with the Fear of Not Being a Fundamentalist, blissfully unaware that Catholics don’t read the Bible the way either atheist or Christian Fundamentalists do. He’s also completely unaware that the world is not neatly divisible between moral absolutists and moral relativists. Nor is he at all aware that he is actually a moral absolutist and not a moral relativist.”
ncregister.com/blog/mark-shea/scratch-an-atheist-find-a-fundamentalist

Read this and learn, my friends: “Catholics don’t read the Bible the way either atheist or Christian Fundamentalists do”.

And all of you guys who talk about the savagery of the OT…please be aware that you are declaring yourself to be a moral absolutist. 🙂

“It’s wrong for someone to drown pregnant women!”

#moralabsolutist
 
I lost respect for this guy and for those who quote him as the fount of wisdom. Atheists do NOT consider Genesis to be a science textbook. Where did this nonsense come from? Atheists consider Genesis to be a fairy tale, just another one of the “creation myths”. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_creation_myths
WOOSH!!!

That was the sound of PR’s point going over Vera’s head.

Vera. They both interpret literally when forming their beliefs/arguments. That was what he was meaning.
:doh2::doh2::doh2:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top