Screaming Babies at Mass

[mcmitton]

I’ve not experienced any screaming babies at St. Patrick. Loud crying? Sure. One of the parents will always take the child out of the nave. When the shrieks come, I just think they are “making a not-so-joyful noise unto the Lord”. What does startle me is when small hard-soled shoes start kicking on the pews.

It would be sad indeed if all the babies did not come to mass. Our hope is in the Lord, our faith’s future in in their tiny hands.

 

[Phemie]

There’s only so much you can do with oblivious parents.

In my parish I wish we had to deal with this more, it would mean that parents bring their children to Mass instead of only coming for the baptism and then for the obligatory Mass attendance so they can receive First Communion.

That said, I’ve known a priest stop his homily and speak to the parents of a misbehaving child. They left on the spot and never set foot in church again for over 10 years, when they came on the day their grandchild was baptized. They haven’t been back since that day.

As for ‘crying rooms’, few Catholic churches I’ve been in had them. My experience at those that did was that the kids quickly learned that if they misbehaved, instead of the discrete “knee squeeze” warning of dire consequences that such behaviour would have brought us at their age, they got taken to a room where they could play to their heart’s content. That’s not a set-up that encouraged good behaviour.

 

[Phemie]

It is always right for that child to be removed right away when crying occurs . In fact why not put the infant in the cry room to begin with ? It should be a rule in each parish stating that children under a certain age should be in cry room lets say 4? In my church , at a certain point children a certain age to a certain age leave mass to learn some productive things about the gospel teaching while father speaks to the adult congregation . Mass is way too important to be interrupted by children .

You mean mothers/parents should be exiled from the nave until their children reach the age of 4? That’s what you’re proposing. What a horrible thought!

I brought my kids to Mass from the time they were born. I had sense enough to make a quick exit if they started to really cry, and return when they had calmed down. Luckily, that didn’t happen very often.

In some parishes there is a Liturgy of the Word with Children during Mass, which I think is what you’re referring to in your next to last sentence. Our Conference of Bishops has issued a document on that practice, saying that it’s not for children under 4, it’s not a babysitting service, it shouldn’t be a regular happening and it’s not a craft period but a “Liturgy” and should be conducted as such but with a simplified language.

Mass is way too important to be denied to children.

 

[Phemie]

You mean mothers should be exiled from the nave until their children reach the age of 4? Because that’s what you’re proposing. What a horrible thought!

I brought my kids to Mass from the time they were born. I had sense enough to make a quick exit if they started to really cry, and return when they had calmed down. Luckily, that didn’t happen very often.

In some parishes there is a Liturgy of the Word with Children during Mass, which I think is what you’re referring to in your next to last sentence. Our Conference of Bishops has issued a document on that practice, saying that it’s not for children under 4, it’s not a babysitting service, it shouldn’t be a regular happening and it’s not a craft period but a “Liturgy” and should be conducted as such but with a simplified language.

Mass is way too important to be denied to children.

 

[ardis3958]

I’ve known a priest stop his homily and speak to the parents of a misbehaving child. They left on the spot and never set foot in church again for over 10 years, when they came on the day their grandchild was baptized. They haven’t been back since that day.

Not to sound callous, but the reasons people give for boycotting God always amuse me. So a priest responded normally to abnormal behavior. Amazing. Had it happened in a movie theater or in a courtroom they would have snapped into line immediately. I guess when it comes to religion you’re free to throw a decade-long tantrum when someone expects you to act like an adult.

There’s only so much you can do with oblivious parents.

See, that’s why I feel it’s no longer worth anyone’s while to tolerate abnormal behavior from adults anymore. Respond swiftly and decisively, because we’re past the tipping point of being able to expect transgressors to figure it out themselves.

For what it’s worth, I think the tipping point was right around the time men stopped wearing ties to the baseball game and women stopped wearing hats & gloves to the grocery store.

 

[johnnykins]

It is always right for that child to be removed right away when crying occurs . In fact why not put the infant in the cry room to begin with ? It should be a rule in each parish stating that children under a certain age should be in cry room lets say 4? In my church , at a certain point children a certain age to a certain age leave mass to learn some productive things about the gospel teaching while father speaks to the adult congregation . Mass is way too important to be interrupted by children .

Mass was made for man (including children) not man for the Mass

Apologies to Mark 2:27

1. Many churches do not have a cry room.
2. There is no such rule and shouldn’t be any such rule: children are part of the community.
3. Your church is off base.
4. Mass is so important that children should be there; and Mass is so important that its importance is not diminished by children screaming.

IMHO what this entire discussion does is reflect that people really don’t understand that the Mass is not primarily, though it is partially, about teaching, singing, hearing or even praying - it is primarily about the re-presentation of the Pascal Mystery, the intersection of the present and the eternal, the presence of God Almighty in our midst in such a particular and real way. That is why everyone has a right to be there including children.

Can. 208 From their rebirth in Christ, there exists among all the Christian faithful a true equality regarding dignity and action by which they all cooperate in the building up of the Body of Christ according to each one’s own condition and function.
Can. 213 The Christian faithful have the right to receive assistance from the sacred pastors out of the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the sacraments.
Can. 214 The Christian faithful have the right to worship God according to the prescripts of their own rite approved by the legitimate pastors of the Church and to follow their own form of spiritual life so long as it is consonant with the doctrine of the Church.
Can. 899 §2. In the eucharistic gathering** the people of God are called together** with the bishop or, under his authority, a presbyter presiding and acting in the person of Christ. All the faithful who are present, whether clerics or laity, unite together by participating in their own way according to the diversity of orders and liturgical functions.
Can. 923 The Christian faithful can participate in the eucharistic sacrifice and receive holy communion in any Catholic rite, without prejudice to the prescript of can. 844.

 

[Bearontherun]

IMHO what this entire discussion does is reflect that people really don’t understand that the Mass is not primarily, though it is partially, about teaching, singing, hearing or even praying - it is primarily about the re-presentation of the Pascal Mystery, the intersection of the present and the eternal, the presence of God Almighty in our midst in such a particular and real way. That is why everyone has a right to be there including children.

Wow. That is worth meditating on IMHO. Thanks for that wisdom. Nicely put.

 

[ardis3958]

IMHO what this entire discussion does is reflect that people really don’t understand that the Mass is not primarily, though it is partially, about teaching, singing, hearing or even praying - it is primarily about the re-presentation of the Pascal Mystery, the intersection of the present and the eternal, the presence of God Almighty in our midst in such a particular and real way. That is why everyone has a right to be there including children.

I disagree. I think the discussion reflects a twofold breakdown in society, number one, a loss of common courtesy on the part of clueless parents who should know better, and number two, a softening of society’s backbone in enforcing the rules that protect everyone and make life better and easier for everyone.

I don’t understand why we’re all supposed to tolerate any and all kinds of disturbances created by people who refuse to control themselves, or to control those whom they have control over, as if expecting adults to behave like adults is somehow equivalent to excommunicating them. What, just because it’s Jesus up there on the altar we’re supposed to permit and encourage bad manners?

 

[ConstantineTG]

Not to sound callous, but the reasons people give for boycotting God always amuse me. So a priest responded normally to abnormal behavior. Amazing. Had it happened in a movie theater or in a courtroom they would have snapped into line immediately. I guess when it comes to religion you’re free to throw a decade-long tantrum when someone expects you to act like an adult.

First, kids acting like kids is NORMAL.
Second, have you ever been called out for anything in Church especially where you believe you have done nothing wrong or have done anything you can? Before I believe people should just “man up” when things like this happen. Until it happened to me. Honestly, sometimes I wonder why I am still Catholic given how I have been mistreated by people up and down the diocesan organization. People who I thought should have known better. The expectation here is that priests and people who are working for the diocese would be the primary ones to show the charity of Christ. If they fail to do that, then we see it as a failure of the Church to our personal lives. Is it fair? Maybe not. But that is the reality of how most people will react to such circumstances.

 

[zab]

I disagree. I think the discussion reflects a twofold breakdown in society, number one, a loss of common courtesy on the part of clueless parents who should know better, and number two, a softening of society’s backbone in enforcing the rules that protect everyone and make life better and easier for everyone.

I don’t understand why we’re all supposed to tolerate any and all kinds of disturbances created by people who refuse to control themselves, or to control those whom they have control over, as if expecting adults to behave like adults is somehow equivalent to excommunicating them. What, just because it’s Jesus up there on the altar we’re supposed to permit and encourage bad manners?

I’d rather tollerate the kids and sympathize with the parents than listen to rude and obnoxious adults.

 

[johnnykins]

I disagree. I think the discussion reflects a twofold breakdown in society, number one, a loss of common courtesy on the part of clueless parents who should know better, and number two, a softening of society’s backbone in enforcing the rules that protect everyone and make life better and easier for everyone.

I don’t understand why we’re all supposed to tolerate any and all kinds of disturbances created by people who refuse to control themselves, or to control those whom they have control over, as if expecting adults to behave like adults is somehow equivalent to excommunicating them. What, just because it’s Jesus up there on the altar we’re supposed to permit and encourage bad manners?

Manners have nothing to do with it. The ill mannered have a right to be there, too. It’s NOT a social gathering and that’s where you’re so wrong. Too many people look at Mass as a social gathering. It’s a gathering of God’s people: young, old, alive, dead, past, present, future, on earth, in heaven, smelly, perfumed, crazy, sane, dirty, screaming, quiet, black, white, red, yellow, …, it’s not the local country club, contrary to popular conceptions.

You are supposed to tolerate people and sometimes people cannot control their actions - but they are still people. They are still the children of God called to Him. I suggest you “offer it up,” as the nuns used to say.

 

[Evan]

It is always right for that child to be removed right away when crying occurs . In fact why not put the infant in the cry room to begin with ? **It should be a rule in each parish stating that children under a certain age should be in cry room lets say 4? **In my church , at a certain point children a certain age to a certain age leave mass to learn some productive things about the gospel teaching while father speaks to the adult congregation . Mass is way too important to be interrupted by children .

I really liked this suggestion. If it had been in effect when I grew up my mom would not have been able to attend mass for 18 years. We have siblings separated by 1 to 3 years (9 of us).

In our family, our parents could not sit next to ALL the kids. Not enough parents.

 

[YoungTradCath]

There’s only so much you can do with oblivious parents.

In my parish I wish we had to deal with this more, it would mean that parents bring their children to Mass instead of only coming for the baptism and then for the obligatory Mass attendance so they can receive First Communion.

That said, I’ve known a priest stop his homily and speak to the parents of a misbehaving child. They left on the spot and never set foot in church again for over 10 years, when they came on the day their grandchild was baptized. They haven’t been back since that day.

As for ‘crying rooms’, few Catholic churches I’ve been in had them. My experience at those that did was that the kids quickly learned that if they misbehaved, instead of the discrete “knee squeeze” warning of dire consequences that such behaviour would have brought us at their age, they got taken to a room where they could play to their heart’s content. That’s not a set-up that encouraged good behaviour.

Well, the cry room at my parish is pretty bare-bones. There are a few chairs, and a water fountain. Not even a window, and definitely not any toys.

 

[pnewton]

This controversy is usually divisive. My opinion is split. Parents, like all Catholics, should look to the good of others more than themselves and be willing to walk out for a while, or use a cry room, for the sake of others. On the other hand, all Catholics should consider the good of other first, including the mother with a difficult child and be understanding if she does not think it best, or does not want to leave. No one is the boss. No one is more important, other than the other person. If this is difficult for someone, then meditating on Philippians 2 might bring some understanding.

 

[ardis3958]

First, kids acting like kids is NORMAL.
Second, have you ever been called out for anything in Church especially where you believe you have done nothing wrong or have done anything you can?

Exactly, and kids are oblivious, and they think that whatever they do is right. When parents act like oblivious kids who think that everybody else has to tolerate their ignorance of common courtesy, that’s when I have an issue with it. If it truly stems from ignorance, then it’s called vincible ignorance, if I remember my catechism correctly.

As as matter of fact, in psychology they say that children start out thinking that right is whatever they want to do and wrong is whatever they get punished for. That’s why God has ordained that children have parents. Sometimes I wonder how many people stay at that level until they become parents themselves.

Sure I’ve done things that I didn’t realize were out of line. Want to know how I found out? I was told, right then and there. Nobody let it go, nobody made pious or developmental excuses for me, and I was told point-blank what to do about it. Didn’t put up a self-righteous fit, didn’t throw a ten-year tantrum. And it never happened again.

And that’s why I asked my original question the way I did. I basically asked where the backup parenting should come from, when we have parents in our midst who are still on the level of of the kids they are raising. Should the misbehavior of the parents be tolerated, should the congregation do something, or the ushers, or the priest, and in what way should he/they handle it? Because it’s clear to me, at least, that we shouldn’t throw out standards of good behavior just because it’s church.

 

[CompSciGuy]

Personally, I have never seen a parent that was oblivious to their screaming child.

Here is a story told by Fulton Sheen (I saw him tell it on a youtube video) and our priest has repeated it as well.

A mother gets up to leave with her crying baby. The priest stops and says to the woman “please don’t leave, your child is not bothering me.” The mother replies “no, but you are bothering my child.”

That is the only feedback that I have seen from priests regarding crying babies and it was happily received in the congregation.

I second what this guy/gal says.

If you are Catholic and you promote the culture of life but are upset about “screaming babies” disturbing your mass experience… well, that is kind of hypocritical isn’t it…

I have never been a parent but have nothing but respect for those who are. I know that one day if I become a father (God-willing), I will have screaming babies, and I will hear them all the time, and they will most likely wake me up during the night, and will probably drive me crazy but that’s just part of being a parent. When a screaming baby is making you uncomfortable in mass, just know that the parents of the screaming baby have to put up with it all the time, while you only have to put up with it for one hour. If it really bothers you then just offer it up and try to have some understanding and sympathy. Babies cry, that’s part of life, get over it. We shouldn’t require mothers and their babies to be absent from mass just so that you can feel more comfortable.

 

[johnnykins]

Because it’s clear to me, at least, that we shouldn’t throw out standards of good behavior just because it’s church.

I agree - because in church those standards, when pushed, don’t apply at all so that there is really nothing to throw out.

Let’s be clear, we’re not talking protests, etc. We are talking about people who because of their human condition cannot conform to the current ideas of manners or propriety.

Some people cannot bathe - phobias, lack of running water at home (poverty really is an annoyance when it intrudes in Church - and yes there are people who cannot afford running water in this country!), extraordinary events such a learning about the death of a family member, an adult child, in the midst of hard work in the yard (I know of this particular case - the person went straight to church with dirty sweaty clothes - you should have heard the clucking!) So let’s exclude them - or better yet, lecture them on manners.

Some people have tics, uncontrollable movements and vocalizations - they are certainly an annoyance and should be excluded from society and Mass.

Some people have psychiatric or physical disabilities that are distracting and really are not acceptable in society. You ever seen someone with severe burns and related facial scarring - gads! Who wants to look at that? And, let’s not forget the leering schizophrenic - whoooa! - talk about disturbing at Mass. Have you ever been at Mass when a homeless person comes in? It happens. But, maybe he/she should be asked to leave.

Wasn’t too long ago that black people were excluded or forced to remain in the back due to manners and society.

Mass is for everyone. Perhaps before we slam down on parents who stay with noisy children we need back off ourselves a bit. Personally I’d rather give the parents the benefit of the doubt as to why they are not leaving.

Socialization is not part and parcel of Mass - and it shouldn’t be. I will agree that I prefer well socialized congregations, etc. But, that is not what it’s about. Going to Mass at the local Cathedral downtown, has been an eye opener. You should try something like it.

 

[zab]

Exactly, and kids are oblivious, and they think that whatever they do is right. When parents act like oblivious kids who think that everybody else has to tolerate their ignorance of common courtesy, that’s when I have an issue with it. If it truly stems from ignorance, then it’s called vincible ignorance, if I remember my catechism correctly.

As as matter of fact, in psychology they say that children start out thinking that right is whatever they want to do and wrong is whatever they get punished for. That’s why God has ordained that children have parents. Sometimes I wonder how many people stay at that level until they become parents themselves.

Sure I’ve done things that I didn’t realize were out of line. Want to know how I found out? I was told, right then and there. Nobody let it go, nobody made pious or developmental excuses for me, and I was told point-blank what to do about it. Didn’t put up a self-righteous fit, didn’t throw a ten-year tantrum. And it never happened again.

And that’s why I asked my original question the way I did. I basically asked where the backup parenting should come from, when we have parents in our midst who are still on the level of of the kids they are raising. Should the misbehavior of the parents be tolerated, should the congregation do something, or the ushers, or the priest, and in what way should he/they handle it? Because it’s clear to me, at least, that we shouldn’t throw out standards of good behavior just because it’s church.

It seems to me that the best approach would be one of “How can I help?” rather than “Get 'em (humiliate them, chastise them)”

 

[ardis3958]

Let’s be clear, we’re not talking protests, etc.

And I agree with you absolutely about the protests. I’ve been in a mass where people undercover in the congregation have staged organized protests in the middle of the service, and when it became clear what was happening, the congregation started pretending the protesters didn’t exist, the priest just stopped and stood there, and the ushers and police coaxed them all to leave. I hear the same sort of thing happens when that rainbow group does that thing where they put on their ribbons and go up for communion only to get denied and then they just stand there. People and the communion ministers just walk around them as if they were furniture.

I don’t, however, agree with your intolerant attitudes towards the poor and the distressed and so on, but I don’t want to stray too far off-topic.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Exactly, and kids are oblivious, and they think that whatever they do is right. When parents act like oblivious kids who think that everybody else has to tolerate their ignorance of common courtesy, that’s when I have an issue with it. If it truly stems from ignorance, then it’s called vincible ignorance, if I remember my catechism correctly.

As as matter of fact, in psychology they say that children start out thinking that right is whatever they want to do and wrong is whatever they get punished for. That’s why God has ordained that children have parents. Sometimes I wonder how many people stay at that level until they become parents themselves.

Sure I’ve done things that I didn’t realize were out of line. Want to know how I found out? I was told, right then and there. Nobody let it go, nobody made pious or developmental excuses for me, and I was told point-blank what to do about it. Didn’t put up a self-righteous fit, didn’t throw a ten-year tantrum. And it never happened again.

And that’s why I asked my original question the way I did. I basically asked where the backup parenting should come from, when we have parents in our midst who are still on the level of of the kids they are raising. Should the misbehavior of the parents be tolerated, should the congregation do something, or the ushers, or the priest, and in what way should he/they handle it? Because it’s clear to me, at least, that we shouldn’t throw out standards of good behavior just because it’s church.

There is only so much parents can do. Honestly, if you know how to control 2 year olds, write a book about it. It will make you billions of dollars. Parents everywhere in the world want this information if its out there.