Scriptural Basis for Mary's Assumption

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Well, you brought up about 30 things I can argue with, let’s start at the end. What exactly are you saying about the Gospel of Thomas? Are you saying the Gospel of Thomas teaches the Assumption of Mary? Of course it does not. As far as the Passing of Mary, you will admit I am sure that is 300-400 years after the fact?
Did I say "The Gospel of Thomas’? Oops!😊 I did. I meant to rewrite ‘The Passing of Mary.’
I guess I had Thomas on my mind. I apologize and stand corrected.

‘Transitus Maria’ nonetheless has been called a “Marian” gospel. It must have had much influence in spreading belief and shaping Marian theological thought and expression during the Patristic period from the 2nd to 8th centuries. But Catholic belief never originated with this apocryphal work nor with its sister gospel ‘De Obitu S Dominae’ attributed to St.John the Evangelist, of the turn of the 6th century. These stories of Mary’s Assumption are the result of a long-standing traditional belief among Christians. Essentially, not unlike the canon Gospels, the Marian gospels are written works based on an oral tradition or legend. But they appeared after the four Gospels and all the other books of the Bible were declared canon. The words of St. Juvenal, the Bishop of Jerusalem, to the Emperor Marcian shows that belief in Mary’s Assumption must have started in Palestine during apostolic time. It makes sense that her remains would have been kept for veneration if her tomb were not found empty.

I am sure it was 300 to 400 years after the fact that the Church finally resolved the questions of the Holy Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ’s two natures. If the early Church Fathers of the first two centuries made no mention of Mary’s Assumption, it must have been because the Church was preoccupied with finally defining these concepts and formulating a fundamental profession of faith. The great Roman persecutions, unfortunately, slowed the pace because the Church was barely struggling to stay alive, let alone get visibly established once and for all. Meanwhile, there is no record of the early Church Fathers right through the Patristic period ever having rejected the belief in Mary’s Assumption. Epiphanus and Augustine expressed their beliefs in the Assumption, while Jerome said he was unsure.

Epiphanius said in 370 AD, “Let them search the scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she was buried or not buried…Scripture is absolutely silent on Mary’s earthly end because of the extraordinary nature of the prodigy, in order not to shock the minds of men…Neither do I maintain stoutly that she died.” Neither Jerome, Origen, Athanasius, Ambrose, nor Augustine contested Epiphanius’ assertion. Not one of the Church Fathers was prepared to claim otherwise. Belief in the Assumption of Mary was too strong among the early Christians for any of the Fathers to publicly condemn it.

How do we know that Jesus actually resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven apart from our faith? By the fact that his followers possessed no physical remains of him for veneration. They had to be content with the claims of the apostles and an empty tomb. We cannot dismiss the negative-historical approach to resolve the question of Mary’s Assumption into heaven after her own bodily resurrection, which has rightly preceded ours, for she is our Lord’s mother. 😉

Marian doctrines have developed in the course of the centuries based on long-standing common Christian beliefs. The first Marian dogma, Mary invoked as Mother of God (Theotokos), was eventually proclaimed after the Council of Nicea. The following dogmas were likewise proclaimed only after certain fundamental concepts, such as original sin and the virgin birth, were finally clarified and defined.

The Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to St. Bridget of Sweden and said, " That my Assumption was not known to many persons (but only to a few) was the will of God, my Son, in order that faith in His Ascension might first be established in the hearts of men, for they were not prepared to believe in His Ascension, especially if my Assumption was announced in the beginning."

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
 
of course they encourage you to read it, but they have convinced you it’s not reliable, so read to your hearts content.
‘They’ tell us the same thing that the Ethiopian says to Philip and that Peter says in his epistle - that private individual interpretation of scripture is unreliable.
 
Did I say "The Gospel of Thomas’? Oops!😊 I did. I meant to rewrite ‘The Passing of Mary.’
I guess I had Thomas on my mind. I apologize and stand corrected.

‘Transitus Maria’ nonetheless has been called a “Marian” gospel. It must have had much influence in spreading belief and shaping Marian theological thought and expression during the Patristic period from the 2nd to 8th centuries. But Catholic belief never originated with this apocryphal work nor with its sister gospel ‘De Obitu S Dominae’ attributed to St.John the Evangelist, of the turn of the 6th century. These stories of Mary’s Assumption are the result of a long-standing traditional belief among Christians. Essentially, not unlike the canon Gospels, the Marian gospels are written works based on an oral tradition or legend. But they appeared after the four Gospels and all the other books of the Bible were declared canon. The words of St. Juvenal, the Bishop of Jerusalem, to the Emperor Marcian shows that belief in Mary’s Assumption must have started in Palestine during apostolic time. It makes sense that her remains would have been kept for veneration if her tomb were not found empty.

I am sure it was 300 to 400 years after the fact that the Church finally resolved the questions of the Holy Trinity and the hypostatic union of Christ’s two natures. If the early Church Fathers of the first two centuries made no mention of Mary’s Assumption, it must have been because the Church was preoccupied with finally defining these concepts and formulating a fundamental profession of faith. The great Roman persecutions, unfortunately, slowed the pace because the Church was barely struggling to stay alive, let alone get visibly established once and for all. Meanwhile, there is no record of the early Church Fathers right through the Patristic period ever having rejected the belief in Mary’s Assumption. Epiphanus and Augustine expressed their beliefs in the Assumption, while Jerome said he was unsure.

Epiphanius said in 370 AD, “Let them search the scriptures. They will not find Mary’s death; they will not find whether she was buried or not buried…Scripture is absolutely silent on Mary’s earthly end because of the extraordinary nature of the prodigy, in order not to shock the minds of men…Neither do I maintain stoutly that she died.” Neither Jerome, Origen, Athanasius, Ambrose, nor Augustine contested Epiphanius’ assertion. Not one of the Church Fathers was prepared to claim otherwise. Belief in the Assumption of Mary was too strong among the early Christians for any of the Fathers to publicly condemn it.

How do we know that Jesus actually resurrected from the dead and ascended into heaven apart from our faith? By the fact that his followers possessed no physical remains of him for veneration. They had to be content with the claims of the apostles and an empty tomb. We cannot dismiss the negative-historical approach to resolve the question of Mary’s Assumption into heaven after her own bodily resurrection, which has rightly preceded ours, for she is our Lord’s mother. 😉

Marian doctrines have developed in the course of the centuries based on long-standing common Christian beliefs. The first Marian dogma, Mary invoked as Mother of God (Theotokos), was eventually proclaimed after the Council of Nicea. The following dogmas were likewise proclaimed only after certain fundamental concepts, such as original sin and the virgin birth, were finally clarified and defined.

The Blessed Virgin Mary appeared to St. Bridget of Sweden and said, " That my Assumption was not known to many persons (but only to a few) was the will of God, my Son, in order that faith in His Ascension might first be established in the hearts of men, for they were not prepared to believe in His Ascension, especially if my Assumption was announced in the beginning."

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella :cool:
Nice work:thumbsup:
 
To one degree or the other.
What do you say on Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant?

Doesn’t the description of woman in Rev 11,19 and Rev 12 totally fit to Mary being in heaven with her body? Yes, I know Revelation was a first century symbolic apocalyptic literature (there were however no chapters when John wrote it, so the text was joint at his time).

If you DISAGREE - how do you interpret all these allusions in the NT (mainly Luke’s allusions in his Gospel!):

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Mary%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm

Did Luke got it all wrong?! What was he doing when he was writing the Gospel like that?!

God bless! 🙂
 
What do you say on Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant?

Doesn’t the description of woman in Rev 11,19 and Rev 12 totally fit to Mary being in heaven with her body? Yes, I know Revelation was a first century symbolic apocalyptic literature (there were however no chapters when John wrote it, so the text was joint at his time).

If you DISAGREE - how do you interpret all these allusions in the NT (mainly Luke’s allusions in his Gospel!):

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Mary%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm

Did Luke got it all wrong?! What was he doing when he was writing the Gospel like that?!

God bless! 🙂
Thanks for the link. It had been awhile since I first read Dr. Hahn’s (I think it was him) take on Mary, the ark, and I believe he tried to connect it to the immaculate conception and not the assumption though.

I do find it very interesting and probably would not have read about this in any of the books or journals I susbscribe to but it is easy to see where one can push the parallels between Mary and the ark to complete absurdity. For example, the ark was stolen, Mary was not. Who was Mary’s Uzzah?

The problem is that there are no rules with typology so one can prove most anything he wants and I can see where one that is already accepting a dogma such as the immaculate conception would find this type of scripture interpretation very convincing but taken at face value, reading these verses as proof of the various Marian dogmas leaves much to be desired, at least from my viewpoint.
 
Thanks for the link. It had been awhile since I first read Dr. Hahn’s (I think it was him) take on Mary, the ark, and I believe he tried to connect it to the immaculate conception and not the assumption though.

I do find it very interesting and probably would not have read about this in any of the books or journals I susbscribe to but it is easy to see where one can push the parallels between Mary and the ark to complete absurdity. For example, the ark was stolen, Mary was not. Who was Mary’s Uzzah?

The problem is that there are no rules with typology so one can prove most anything he wants and I can see where one that is already accepting a dogma such as the immaculate conception would find this type of scripture interpretation very convincing but taken at face value, reading these verses as proof of the various Marian dogmas leaves much to be desired, at least from my viewpoint.
The point is that Joseph would’ve known the story of Uzzah, and not been keen to repeat it, which’d be part of the reason WHY Mary was a perpetual virgin 🙂
 
Mary is the Ark of the Covenant (the New covenant).

The old Ark contained:
The manna or bread from heaven.
The staff of the High Priest Aaron.
The Law of God.
It was overlaid in and out with Gold and was sacred to the Lord.

Mary, the New Ark, contained:
The TRUE Bread from Heaven our Lord Jesus Christ in her womb.
The TRUE High Priest, Jesus Christ, in her womb.
The TRUE giver of the SPIRITUAL LAW, Jesus Christ, in her womb.
As the old ark was overlaid inside and out with the finest gold,
Mary was pure inside and out, being sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Mary is also the New Eve.
As Adam was taken from Virgin Ground (untilled and uncursed),
so
Jesus was taken from the Virgin Mary, pure and untouched.
As we are Jesus’s brothers spritually, his mom is our mom spiritually.

Mary is the Queen of Christians because she is mother of the Davidic King.
In the Old Testament, the Mother of the Davidic King was the Gebirah or Queen Mother of the all Judea and had her throne at the right hand of the Davidic King, upon which throne she received the people’s petitions and presented them to the Davidic King, her son.
Jesus is the Davidic King, and Mary is his Queen Mother.
As a glorified Saint, she also has a crown (as all saints will),
and she brings our petitions to Christ at his good pleasure.
Just as WE bring our Christian brothers’s petitions to Christ by praying for them ourselves, at Christ’s good pleasure. Jesus doesn’t need our prayers in order to know what our brothers need. He already knows. But he wants us to pray for each other. That charity for the brotherhood doesn’t end once a saint reaches heaven, hence, Mary and the Saints continue to pray for our spiritual and temporal needs.

Co-redeemer doesn’t mean Mary redeemed us. Jesus did that. Co-redeemer means that she was at his side, willing allowing her soul to be pierced by the sword (as Simeon predicted) by willingly standing at the foot of the cross giving up her rights as mother so that her son could die and redeem the world of mankind back to God.

Hope this helps !! 🙂
Love,
Jaypeeto4
+JMJ+
 
Thanks for the link. It had been awhile since I first read Dr. Hahn’s (I think it was him) take on Mary, the ark, and I believe he tried to connect it to the immaculate conception and not the assumption though.

I do find it very interesting and probably would not have read about this in any of the books or journals I susbscribe to but it is easy to see where one can push the parallels between Mary and the ark to complete absurdity. For example, the ark was stolen, Mary was not. Who was Mary’s Uzzah?

The problem is that there are no rules with typology so one can prove most anything he wants and I can see where one that is already accepting a dogma such as the immaculate conception would find this type of scripture interpretation very convincing but taken at face value, reading these verses as proof of the various Marian dogmas leaves much to be desired, at least from my viewpoint.
I’m asking this in a most friendly way but - aren’t you a bit selective? I think you hold a very skeptic view of knowing things ONLY in the case of Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant (and Mary in general).

The study of typology is as well as formal and textual criticism a very rigorous field of study. Sure - there are always several competing views on things (in every scholarly disicipline mentioned) BUT that doesn’t mean one is more plausible than the other.

I don’t want you to trust me on this. I also have to trust the people who have the right to say - i.e. the authorities.

Now, if Protestant, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, as well as Catholic scholars acknowledge that the New Testament deliberately depicts Mary in terms related to the Ark of the Covenant it is naturally possible that you can still hold your view they are completely wrong on this - that is “at least from your viewpoint”. But even my looking at the amazing similarities only between Luke’s Gospel and Samuel’s books makes me say “Wow”. What about you? Accidental parralels?

You said you “do find it very interesting”. Me too 🙂

“the ark was stolen, Mary was not” -----> So? No scholar that deals with with typology would tell you that this not being the case Catholics “push the parallels between Mary and the ark to complete absurdity”

God bless! 🙂
 
Protestants always tell me how the Bible is the literal word of God and it should be followed to the letter, but it amazes me how few actually practice what they preach. Jesus says in 3 different Books that the broken and Blessed bread is His Body and that the Wine is His Blood. Jesus does not say these are symbols but that they are the Real Thing. John chapter 6 clearly states that His Body and Blood are Real Food and Real Drink. Why don’t you believe what Jesus says. Protestants tell me that no man can forgive sins, which is partial truth, but didn’t Jesus give authority to St. Peter and the Apostles by telling them that whatever they bind or loose on Earth will be bound or loosed in Heaven, or was Jesus just trying to make them feel important. There are approximately 33,000 Protestant denominations on this planet. Do you know why? Because there are 33,000 different interpretations of the Bible. One by each denomination. I believe that Jesus gave authority to Peter, the Rock, to oversee the Church, as is witten in the Bible. I believe that Papal succesion can be found in Acts. Since the Apostles appointed a successor to replace Judas. It seems to me that someone to succeed Peter would be a logical development. Don’t get me wrong. I know that Protestants love the Word of God. We Catholics could learn much from you on that account, but to me Jesus surely would have set up a Hierarchy to oversee His Church so that it wouldn’t fall into chaos. I may be mistaken, but many of your posts seem very angry. I pray that you find the Peace that Jesus meant us all to have.
Pete, these are great points and questions, but are off topic in this thread. I encourage you to start a new thread on this!
 
This isn’t exactly true. Your church has never defined a single word uttered by either Jesus or the apostles outside of that which we find recorded in scripture.
The word “Trinity” won’t be found in scripture but certainly the concept of the Trinity is there.

What have I said thus far that is even close to a bannable offense?
Nothing it is the attitude with which you write. You make an accusatory statement “your church has never defined…”

And then I gave an example, the word Trinity, which was defined as a single word representing the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles that is not recorded in scripture. You then agreed that the concept is found in scripture.

Underneath, it seems that you deny the authority of the Catholic Church, given by Jesus, to define these types of concepts. One such concept is the Assumption of Mary.
CM, You misunderstood my post.

One of the Catholic posters said that your church only teaches that which Jesus and the apostles taught. I was commenting that your church has never said Jesus or the apostles said anything outside that which we have recorded in scripture.

If I am wrong, I would appreciate you defining for me which apostle taught the doctrine of the assumption or the immaculate conception.
We hold that not all of the teachings of Jesus and His Apostles made it into writing. However, the Sacred Tradition (non-written divine revelation) never contradicts what is written in scripture, since they are two threads of the same rope. The concept of the Trinity is an example. This word is never found coming from the mouth of Jesus or the Apostles in the written word, but the seeds are found therin, just as the seeds of the assumption and the immanculate conception are found in scripture.

Since we are not “sola scriptura” we recognize that not all the revelation of divine truth is recorded in the Bible. The Trinity is a revelation of Divine truth, as are the assumption, and the immaculate conception.
Things can certainly become clearer over time but I don’t think they can develop the way in which I see Catholic doctrine developing.
There is no difference. Catholic doctrinal development IS revealed truth becoming clearer over time. No, you will not see the word Trinity in the New Testament. You will not see the two natures of Christ defined. This was not done until heresies developed. The Marian doctrines are the same. They developed in response to heresy. Jesus is the Son of God, Mary is His mother, that makes her the Mother of God. This title is not found in scripture, but represents a clear understanding of the divinely revealed truth about the nature of Jesus.
 
Thanks for the link. It had been awhile since I first read Dr. Hahn’s (I think it was him) take on Mary, the ark, and I believe he tried to connect it to the immaculate conception and not the assumption though.
I do find it very interesting and probably would not have read about this in any of the books or journals I susbscribe to but it is easy to see where one can push the parallels between Mary and the ark to complete absurdity. For example, the ark was stolen, Mary was not. Who was Mary’s Uzzah?
You make some excellent points. Do you think then that using the Scriptures in this way is a sign of a false teacher? Or that the assumption of Mary is also a false teaching?
 
You make some excellent points. Do you think then that using the Scriptures in this way is a sign of a false teacher? Or that the assumption of Mary is also a false teaching?
I personally don’t see any compelling evidence that the assumption of Mary is a historical fact.

I wouldn’t say that pointing out the parallels between Mary and the ark is a sign of a false teacher. I simply believe that it is pushing the envelope to go from the paralles that Hahn and others point out to the immaculate conception or the assumption. So, in short, I believe the assumption of Mary to be a false teaching.

I agree that God could have done it and from our human perspective it would have been fitting for Him to have done so, but the question is, did it happen. I know I have missed several posts but it appears that this was a relatively late development and I don’t understand why the Catholic church would make something like this binding upon the laity.
 
I personally don’t see any compelling evidence that the assumption of Mary is a historical fact.

I wouldn’t say that pointing out the parallels between Mary and the ark is a sign of a false teacher. I simply believe that it is pushing the envelope to go from the paralles that Hahn and others point out to the immaculate conception or the assumption. So, in short, I believe the assumption of Mary to be a false teaching.

I agree that God could have done it and from our human perspective it would have been fitting for Him to have done so, but the question is, did it happen. I know I have missed several posts but it appears that this was a relatively late development and I don’t understand why the Catholic church would make something like this binding upon the laity.
Would it be fair to say you agree that Mary is
  1. the New Eve
  2. the ark
  3. the Queen Mother
    BUT you say we cannot jump from this to claims about her assumption/immaculate conception?
 
Nothing it is the attitude with which you write. You make an accusatory statement “your church has never defined…”

And then I gave an example, the word Trinity, which was defined as a single word representing the teachings of Jesus and the Apostles that is not recorded in scripture. You then agreed that the concept is found in scripture.

Underneath, it seems that you deny the authority of the Catholic Church, given by Jesus, to define these types of concepts. One such concept is the Assumption of Mary.

We hold that not all of the teachings of Jesus and His Apostles made it into writing. However, the Sacred Tradition (non-written divine revelation) never contradicts what is written in scripture, since they are two threads of the same rope. The concept of the Trinity is an example. This word is never found coming from the mouth of Jesus or the Apostles in the written word, but the seeds are found therin, just as the seeds of the assumption and the immanculate conception are found in scripture.

Since we are not “sola scriptura” we recognize that not all the revelation of divine truth is recorded in the Bible. The Trinity is a revelation of Divine truth, as are the assumption, and the immaculate conception.

There is no difference. Catholic doctrinal development IS revealed truth becoming clearer over time. No, you will not see the word Trinity in the New Testament. You will not see the two natures of Christ defined. This was not done until heresies developed. The Marian doctrines are the same. They developed in response to heresy. Jesus is the Son of God, Mary is His mother, that makes her the Mother of God. This title is not found in scripture, but represents a clear understanding of the divinely revealed truth about the nature of Jesus.
When I wrote that your church has never defined a single word of the apostles or Jesus for that matter outside of what is written in scripture I meant quite literally that your church has not said that Paul or Peter taught the doctrine of (for exmaple) the assumption at such and such church in this document. You guys say that this is an apostolic teaching (which I guess means your church believes it was taught by the apostles) but there is no evidence of it for quite some time after the death of the apostles.

As far as scriptural support for the Trinity vs scriptural support for the immaculate conception or the assumption I woiuld have to say that the evidence for the Trinity is light years ahead of that for the two Marian doctrines that have been mentioned in this thread, namely the assumption and the immaculate conception.

You are right, I don’t see any reason to accept your church as infallible and therefore I reject some of what it teaches so in the end, I reject it’s authority.

What heresies did the immaculate conception or the assumption help put an end to?
 
Would it be fair to say you agree that Mary is
  1. the New Eve
  2. the ark
  3. the Queen Mother
    BUT you say we cannot jump from this to claims about her assumption/immaculate conception?
No, it probably would not be fair to say that I believe Mary to be the new Eve, the ark, or the queen mother…at least not in the way you understand them to be true. I don’t think you and I will ever agree (unless you becom reformed in your theology or I become Catholic in mine) exactly what the three items mean.

Let me ask you a question, and this is what it boils down to. Do you think you would accept either the IC or the assumption without your church binding it upon your conscious? In other words, the your church didn’t throw it’s authority behind these two dogmas, would you accept them?
 
Let me ask you a question, and this is what it boils down to. Do you think you would accept either the IC or the assumption without your church binding it upon your conscious? In other words, the your church didn’t throw it’s authority behind these two dogmas, would you accept them?
As a matter of fact, I would.

I think that both beliefs are logical and viable according to the Bible and historical Christianity.

I created a thread on the Assumption
a while back.
Pax tecum,
 
I’m asking this in a most friendly way but - aren’t you a bit selective? I think you hold a very skeptic view of knowing things ONLY in the case of Mary being the Ark of the New Covenant (and Mary in general).
How am I being selective? I just don’t see the evidence. The ark was not assumed into heaven and I don’t believe Mary was either. If I stop short of accepting your church’s authority I don’t see any reason to believe that Mary was assumed into heaven.
The study of typology is as well as formal and textual criticism a very rigorous field of study. Sure - there are always several competing views on things (in every scholarly disicipline mentioned) BUT that doesn’t mean one is more plausible than the other.

I don’t want you to trust me on this. I also have to trust the people who have the right to say - i.e. the authorities.

Now, if Protestant, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, as well as Catholic scholars acknowledge that the New Testament deliberately depicts Mary in terms related to the Ark of the Covenant it is naturally possible that you can still hold your view they are completely wrong on this - that is “at least from your viewpoint”. But even my looking at the amazing similarities only between Luke’s Gospel and Samuel’s books makes me say “Wow”. What about you? Accidental parralels?
I don’t doubt that the gospel of Luke parallels Mary and the ark but it is the limits of these parallels that I question. I doubt that there are many theologians outside of your church that accept the IC or the assumption and certainly very few that accept it only based on the gospel of Luke.
 
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