Scriptural basis for Papal infallibility?

  • Thread starter Thread starter myfavoritmartin
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Yes and they have removed people from the church because of certain scientific proclamations using papal bulls and accordingly they claim there is no salvation outside the church! So how are issues like Galileo not a matter of faith and morals, when in fact he was forced out of the church? hence out of salvation!
Indeed he was removed from the Church because he would not repent and also because Christ gave the power of excommunication to the Church

“if he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector"
† Matthew 18:15-18

The Galileo thing is highly confusing because many protestants are not even sure what happened.

The Key Is In The Book Of Joshua

From Wil Milan’s article “Twisting the Knife” (November/December 1999), one may be led to conclude that Pope Urban VIII excommunicated Galileo because Galileo incurred the wrath of the Church by ridiculing the Pope in his Dialogue. Unfortunately, this overlooks the crux of the matter.

The Congregation of the Holy Office condemned Galileo in 1616, under Pope Paul V, and again in 1633 under Pope Urban VIII. Contrary to modern belief, the excommunication was unrelated to Galileo’s theory that the earth moved around the sun, a discovery made in 1543 by a Catholic priest from Poland named Copernicus. Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa held this same view, and neither he nor Fr. Copernicus encountered any opposition from the Holy See. The Holy See does not comment on theories of science unless they are presented as scientific truths that contradict revealed truth, in which case these scientific theories become theological pronouncements.

Mr. Milan writes, “After careful study of the matter and of Galileo’s evidence, Cardinal [Robert] Bellarmine . . . concluded that Galileo did not contradict Scripture.” This assertion must be qualified by the following passage from letter the Cardinal wrote to a Mr. Foscarini, a close friend of Galileo: “There would be no objection on the part of the Congregation to putting forward the system of Copernicus as the best explanation of the celestial phenomena provided no reference was made to the apparent conflict with the Bible” (emphasis added).

The Congregation took issue not with the movement of the celestial bodies around the sun but with Galileo’s statement that the sun did not move. Why is that? The key is in the book of Joshua: “Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, ‘Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou moon in the valley of Ajalon.’ And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day” (Josh. 10:12–14, emphasis added).

If the sun does not move, as Galileo affirmed, how could the Lord have commanded it to stand still? The Church had not made an infallible pronouncement on the proper interpretation of these verses.** Galileo, on the other hand, was making one: The sun does not move, meaning either Scripture is in error or the Church has to infallibly declare that the meaning of these verses is not literal.**

The Church, to protect the faithful and to call Galileo to repentance, issued her condemnation. Pope John Paul II has removed the bull of excommunication against Galileo in part because the astronomer’s teaching no longer constitutes a danger to the faithful (just as Paul’s stern warning against circumcision in Galatians 5:2–4 was binding for his time but is not binding today).

The irony is that, factually, the seventeenth-century Church was on the side of science, which has shown that the sun does move and is not fixed, as Galileo would have had it.

Naji Mouawad
Enjoy.
 
HailMary…

With deepest respect, Even if we do not agree with his understanding, he is right in asking for charity. I know it may be hard at times when someone truly believes basically the exact opposite of, well, everything we do (no offense martin;) ) but we must always respond in love. Even if we think the person is full of spit and venom, this is all the more reason we should show Christ’s Love.

In His Name always
 
Hailmary,

I have yet to meet a Catholic who could accurately tell me the proper use of Papal infallibility (I am Catholic BTW) and in 30 years I have never understood papal infallibility or what exactly has been infallibly declared within the Church., and all doctrines which have been infallibly declared. The area is so grey to me that the papal infallibility position becomes untenable. Especially when you factor in statements by previous Popes that contradict future Vatican councils.

Popes have authorized the use of torture in Papal Bulls, is that infallibly declared? If so is it moral for me to torture modern day enemies of the Church? If it was infallibly declared it would be…
We profess everything in the Creed every mass. If you want a more thorough examination of what is declared to be true, you can check out secure.cartsvr.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=1420153&showprevnext=1&affId=catholicsupplies
 
Pope John Paul II has removed the bull of excommunication against Galileo in part because the astronomer’s teaching no longer constitutes a danger to the faithful (just as Paul’s stern warning against circumcision in Galatians 5:2–4 was binding for his time but is not binding today).
To the best of my knowledge ~speculatores domus israel~
has never been rescinded…
 
HailMary…

With deepest respect, Even if we do not agree with his understanding, he is right in asking for charity. I know it may be hard at times when someone truly believes basically the exact opposite of, well, everything we do (no offense martin;) ) but we must always respond in love. Even if we think the person is full of spit and venom, this is all the more reason we should show Christ’s Love.

In His Name always
Well said…and I am making that official guys!
Posts have been deleted from this thread. Next time citations…
MF
 
HailMary…

With deepest respect, Even if we do not agree with his understanding, he is right in asking for charity. I know it may be hard at times when someone truly believes basically the exact opposite of, well, everything we do (no offense martin;) ) but we must always respond in love. Even if we think the person is full of spit and venom, this is all the more reason we should show Christ’s Love.

In His Name always
This is the best post I have seen in awhile:D God Bless you:thumbsup:
 
We profess everything in the Creed every mass. If you want a more thorough examination of what is declared to be true, you can check out secure.cartsvr.net/catalogs/catalog.asp?prodid=1420153&showprevnext=1&affId=catholicsupplies
Is there anything written I don’t need a law degree to understand? The Nicen Creed doesn’t cover ALL infallible Catholic teachings, real quick Mary’s Assumption and perpetual virignity are not mentioned in the Nicene Creed and I know for a fact they are infallibly declared.
 
Is there anything written I don’t need a law degree to understand? The Nicen Creed doesn’t cover ALL infallible Catholic teachings, real quick Mary’s Assumption and perpetual virignity are not mentioned in the Nicene Creed and I know for a fact they are infallibly declared.
Those infallible declarations came about when people (heretics) DENY them, and the Church, for the protection of the faithful, must affirm the Truth.

For example, the Eucharist is something Catholics have believed in ever sins Apostolic times but it wasn’t declared in a dogma until much later.

But you are right, everything is not in the creed explicitly, thankfully we have oral Tradition and sacred Scripture, together, to help us come to a better understanding of what Christ wants us to know.
 
Did I hurt your feelings? Sowwy bub.
You’d think spending my childhood summers at the farm I’d know what a sowwy bub is! I don’t! Oh well!

No you guys never hurt my feelings, sorry! I just think comments as such leave people(lurkers) with the wrong impression of Christians, that’s all!
 
Is there anything written I don’t need a law degree to understand? The Nicen Creed doesn’t cover ALL infallible Catholic teachings, real quick Mary’s Assumption and perpetual virignity are not mentioned in the Nicene Creed and I know for a fact they are infallibly declared.
There is nothing you have to understand in order to believe: belief is what we are bound to as Catholics in the sacraments.

The Nicene Creed binds you to believe in the RCC: you profess belief no matter your understanding.

Presumably your understanding has grown as you have. Another problem completely.

This is why, in short fidelity to Her is paramount: She is entrusted with the fullness of truth, whether or not you understand any given part of the truth.

Why have I not heard you say you’ve turned to the CCC, or to the dauntingly compendious Vatican website?

God bless.
 
Hi Heisenberg!

Peter taught in error, Paul addressed him tp his face!
I can find that scripture if you’d like but it sure seems like 1 strike against scriptural basis for infallibility.
It is not clear that Peter taught anything. He simply acted in a manner contrary to what his own teachings were, probably acting out of pastoral concern for the Judaizers.

In any event, note that Peter was still an Apostle and never for one moment lost his apostolic authority.

Moral: Even when wrong, your lawful Church Authorities are still that. So you have no where to run and hide.

This rebuke incident was related by Paul almost as an offhand footnote, clearly something that happened in the past. It had no lasting or even immediate impact upon the church.

And in the end, the only certain way to know that Paul was correct is because Peter agreed. Otherwise, if you have two apostles to conflict, whom do you choose?

No brainer: Peter. Peter’s apostleship was never questioned by the Church. Paul, on the other hand, spent alot of time defending his apostlehship. If anyone’s apostleship were in doubt, it would have been Paul’s.
 
Some basis for Papal Infallibility and the Infallibility of the Church as a whole:

Matthew 16:18, the Church will defeat the Devil
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Ephesians 5:22-32; The Church is one with Christ
…and the two shall become one flesh. This is a great mystery, but I speak in reference to Christ and the church.

Matthew 18:15-18; The Church is the final authority:
if he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector

John 21:17
When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep”.
Christ is the good SHEPARD, and we are His flock. However, Christ DELEGATED the work of “feeding” and “tending” to Peter alone and his successors. In order for someoen to successfully tend the entire flock of Christ, he will need serious grace, and this grace is infallability when he teaches faith and morals. Unlike in Matthew 18 when Jesus told the entire group of Apostles, “whatever you bind on earth…”, he didn’t say “feed my sheep”, etc, to the rest: primacy.

Luke 22:32
but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.
If Jesus’ prayer are always heard, then AFTER St. Peter’s betrayal, his faith [St. Peter] WILL NOT FAIL.

Those are the ones that I can remember off hand, not to mention,
1 Tim 3:15
John 14:26
Luke 10:16

I have not read it for myself, but I’m sure its been laid our nicely on scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html
 
So again is there a simple list I can look at showing all Catholic infallible teachings? Was the papal bull authorizing torture of heretics infallible?
 
So again is there a simple list I can look at showing all Catholic infallible teachings? Was the papal bull authorizing torture of heretics infallible?
I’m not familiar with that. May I read it?
 
Perhaps, M. Lukewarm, if one realizes that the Popes of the time did not run countries, that the Church was consulted on whether the testimony of a person did (by definition) amount to heresy, that the GOVERNMENTS were the ones torturing the accused heretics (and that the legal system was strikingly UNLIKE that of the U.S. today), that the bull in question not only was meant as a commentary on a particular time’s, particular government’s, use of torture and was actually originally considered as a way of trying to LIMIT torture, and above all that this was in no way a ‘teaching of the church’ meant for all Christians to adhere to in their lives. . .

one would be able to draw correct conclusions not just about this ‘bull’, but about Catholicism itself.

I am curious about your ‘name’ though, since I just completed a Divine Mercy Novena, and the ninth day is devoted to prayer for the “lukewarm”, whom Scripture warns that God has spoken of thus, “because you are neither hot nor cold, I will spew you out of my mouth”. I prayed that the “lukewarm” would become on fire for God. I pray you will also be blessed with His fire of Truth.
 
No you guys never hurt my feelings, sorry! I just think comments as such leave people(lurkers) with the wrong impression of Christians, that’s all!
Sadly, I have to agree with this statement. How is it that Jesus said they would recognize His followers? :hmmm:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top