Scriptural evidence for Once-saved-always-saved?

[Confessor01]

Okay, I just responded to catholic1seeks’s entire post, but then I found out I was logged out when I attempted to submit it, and therefore the entire post was lost. I will respond later.

 

[thechristian]

If you can get unsaved then maybe you were never saved in the first place…Can we be sure of our salvation is the next question once we are saved?

God loves you…God bless

 

[ScotchIrish]

To thechristian,
where does it say that you are saved forever?
Where does it say "Once saved always saved?
Be specific.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If you can get unsaved then maybe you were never saved in the first place…Can we be sure of our salvation is the next question once we are saved?

God loves you…God bless

Who said so? Jesus? Was Judas saved, or did was he ever saved in the first place? I found nothing in Scripture to claimed that our salvation cannot be lost. I have read Matthew Gospel and there is a passage that about when the Son of God comes again in Glory and separate the sheep and the goat. He called the one on his right, “Blessed of My Fathers” because when he was hungry, they feed him, etc. “On his left,” He condemned them to eternal fire.

John Salza wrote about the origins of OSAS on his website ScriptureCatholic.com. In it he wrote,

*The doctrine of “once saved, always saved” was invented by John Calvin during the Reformation. Under this theory, the Protestant believes that one is saved when he accepts Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. This is comforting - after all, who wouldn’t want assurance? According to this view, true Christians are the ones who will persevere to the end. For those who accepted Christ during their lives but did not persevere to the end, the doctrine calls these people superficial Christians. So true Christians will go to heaven and superficial Christians will not. Not only is this teaching not Scriptural, it is difficult to accept the teaching on reason.

The only distinction between a true Christian and a superficial Christian is that the superficial Christian did not persevere to the end. Otherwise, the two types of Christians appear to be the same. The superficial Christian has all the earmarks of a true Christian except that he did not persevere. But this necessarily means that the true Christian cannot know that he really is a true Christian either until the end of his life. He, too, won’t know whether his conversion was genuine until the end of his life. Therefore, despite all the talk about assurance, he cannot be sure.

This doctrine, therefore, actually gives its adherents less assurance of their salvation. It necessarily imposes upon them uncertainty until the end. The Catholic (and Scriptural) view, however, does give assurance to the believer that he is in fact currently saved (a true Christian), and that, if he perseveres to the end, he will be saved at death. We also know that God will give all the graces necessary for us to be faithful to the end (because of our freewill, the question is always whether we will accept the grace or not). Thus, Catholics know that it is theirs to lose. Protestant Calvinists don’t even know whether it is theirs to begin with.*

 

[ScotchIrish]

Mannyfit75 - I find it interesting that you would make the statement that Jesus said so, but you did not back it up with scripture. So if you can back up your answer that Jesus said so, please do.

 

[thechristian]

I’m saved forever and I have know dought that I am not…I’m going to heaven and I believe that with all my mind and all my heart. Would you like to know how I believe it…I can say Jesus is lord and that he has risen from dead and absolutely mean it without a dought. You can also say that if you put your faith and trust in christ.

God loves you…God bless

To thechristian,
where does it say that you are saved forever?
Where does it say "Once saved always saved?
Be specific.

 

[YADA]

May I suggest that James is writing to Israel [James 1:1]. Israel is not the Body of Christ. Man has always been saved by Grace thru Faith. Paul never writes that we are saved by Faith plus works. He writes just the opposite - Romans 4:4,5; Ephesians 2:8,9. To be fair, Paul does write that we are saved UNTO good works in verse 10. Whatta ya think?

May I suggest that is is way too easy [let me say that again] WAY TOO EASY to say that this or that passage was written to some audience [other then the one making that argument] and therefore does not pertain to them …

Can’t be me Paul is talking to … it must be you or that one there …Sheesh

In truth and more accurately… the new testament writings can be said [collectively] to have been written by a community of believers for the community of believers … it was not written to “evangelize” the one who had never heard of Christ … but to put down the core beliefs of the Christian community [they called it the “Canon” of the Church - and by Church it is the community of believers] … and then as it is true that JEsus came to redeem the world [jews and gentiles - all peoples and all nations] that Good News is directed at all mankind, in all ages …

 

[area52]

Can someone please cite Scriptural evidence that shows that it is not just simply necessary for a person only to believe that Jesus came and died on a cross (e.g., that it is not necessary to always go to church, confess one’s sins, etc.) in order to be saved?

My mother thinks that a person only has to believe that a person need only believe that Jesus came and died on a cross in order to go to heaven; therefore, she grants herself the right to go to church (she is Protestant, not Catholic) when she wishes among other things. She thinks the Catholic Church is too regimental.

Listen to your mother.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Mannyfit75 - I find it interesting that you would make the statement that Jesus said so, but you did not back it up with scripture. So if you can back up your answer that Jesus said so, please do.

I wrote that in the form of a question. Do you want me to post it again?

Manny:

Who said so? Jesus? Was Judas saved, or did was he ever saved in the first place?

I posted that as a form of a question. Jesus selected Judas to one of his disciple. He did faith in Jesus, but as we all know, his faith was very weak and tempted by the Devil, and in the end, he betrayed Jesus Christ. Judas committed suicide after feeling guilty that Jesus was condemned death and knowing that Jesus was an innocent man.

For the record, I do not believe in OSAS. I believe a Christian can lose his salvation. The only way, he can regain God’s favor. He have to be completely sorrowful for the sins he committed, and confess his sins.

There is no Scriptural evidence to support OSAS.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m saved forever and I have know dought that I am not…I’m going to heaven and I believe that with all my mind and all my heart. Would you like to know how I believe it…I can say Jesus is lord and that he has risen from dead and absolutely mean it without a dought. You can also say that if you put your faith and trust in christ.

God loves you…God bless

This almost sound like the Mormon claimed “feeling in the bosom.” You feel that you are saved? Are you certain that you are? Have you ever been tempted to commit any sin?

 

[Mannyfit75]

OSAS cheapens Jesus Christ’s sacrifice and resurrection. By this doctrine, I do not even have to OBEY the Ten Commandments? You expect us Catholics to buy into this? It would contradict Jesus’ teaching, “If you love me, obey my commandments.” What if we don’t, you know what happens.

If you believe in Jesus Christ, you would also believe what he said and do what he tells you. In plain, English, obey His Commandments.

 

[Primox]

Once Saved, Always Saved
catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp

**
Aren’t We Saved by Faith Alone? **
catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303sbs.asp

I think Pope Benedict’s latest encyclical “Spe salvi” (In HOPE are we saved) is about the best refutation of Once Saved, Always Saved, and it’s short, and (I think) accessible by protestants.
Spe Salvi
ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/B16spesalvi.HTM

Great links! They’re a great resource (I recommend a thorough read before anyone starts in on the discussion if they’re unfamiliar with the arguments therein)

“And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love”, why does in NOT say and the greatest of these is faith?? If salvation is the ultimate goal, and faith is all you need, would that not be THE MOST IMPORTANT thing?? Then you can make the point that love requires you to do something(works).

Good point.

Salvation is ENTIRELY His work, not any of ours, and on that Catholics agree with Protestants.

Well, the Grace of God is entirely his work. Salvation is something that we work out in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12).

 

[PEPCIS]

OSAS cheapens Jesus Christ’s sacrifice and resurrection. By this doctrine, I do not even have to OBEY the Ten Commandments?

Well, I can understand why it is that you believe that OSAS cheapens Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, because you also believe that OSAS means that you don’t have to follow God’s commandments. But that is false.

Manny:

You expect us Catholics to buy into this?

Actually, Catholics already do buy into this, because Catholics claim that Christians must follow the commandments of God. The difference is that Protestants understand that false professors will TRY to follow God’s commandments, but in the end they will not fool Jesus, because He will tell them to “begone, you workers of iniquity.”

The difference is that Catholics maintain that you can lose your salvation, and Protestants maintain that if you walk away from the faith that the Bible tells us that it just goes to prove that “they went out [from us], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19)

Manny:

It would contradict Jesus’ teaching, “If you love me, obey my commandments.”

Exactly. That is why Protestants and Catholics are really not that far apart in their understanding. The difference is that Catholics emphasize that you can lose your salvation, which is a statement that Protestants consider heresy.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Salvation is ENTIRELY His work, not any of ours, and on that Catholics agree with Protestants.

Well, the Grace of God is entirely his work. Salvation is something that we work out in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12).

Sure, AFTER you obtain salvation. Working it out is a life-long learning process. It’s like being given a rubics cube, and you spend your life learning how to solve it. Just because you put the cube on the shelf for a while doesn’t mean that you don’t own it. It just means that you aren’t paying any attention to it.

 

[zmockbee]

There is no Scriptural evidence for “once saved, always saved”. That’s a cheap phrase invented by those who think a sinner’s prayer at the age of eight can save a person no matter their manner of life.

It’s funny how this idea springs from “Calvinists”, but, as I read the “Institutes”, I can’t help but find myself thinking about Calvin laughing at these doctrines. Calvin believed in the perseverance of the saints, the Holy Spirit empowering the saints for sanctification in following the Lord’s commands. Calvin never mentioned as cheap a view of the atonement as many professing Christians do today.

 

[Biggie]

For the same token, a Christian (a person born of TRUE, saving faith) WILL do good works. His spiritual genes are instructing him on new habits and desires, and he cannot help himself. That spiritual characteristic and trait of good works is inbred in his spiritual genes.

In the same way that you cannot truly say that you love someone, and then be happy to ignore them as if they didnt exist, so neither can you say that you truly believe in what Jesus has done for us, without wanting and needing to respond to that love - remembering that we see Christ in every other human being.

In what you have written, I found this the most interesting.

Of course the obvious problem is that a Christian will do good works, and will not do good works but will actually do evil as well. . And of course you can love someone and be happy to ignore them, and then be sorry that you ignored them, and then love them and ignore them again. Did one love the other in the end? How is the other to know, and more significantly how is one to know oneself?

The problem with sin is its duplicity in respect to human nature. Often a Christian will say he intends to do good, but actually does evil (rationalization) Sin involves self deception, and when one has been dishonest with himself, by what vehicle does he arrive at the conclusion that self deception has ceased, that his profession of faith (which in itself is an act, a work) is not self serving and deceptive as well? In my view, Protestantism offers no advice on the matter, and the sinful person is left a formula with which to attempt to reform.

The record of actual life is not as you have depicted, but the precise issue is that the verdict is mixed.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Well, I can understand why it is that you believe that OSAS cheapens Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, because you also believe that OSAS means that you don’t have to follow God’s commandments. But that is false.

Why do you follow the commandments then, if you believe that your Salvation is Assured? All you need is to believe, according to your doctrine?

Actually, Catholics already do buy into this, because Catholics claim that Christians must follow the commandments of God. The difference is that Protestants understand that false professors will TRY to follow God’s commandments, but in the end they will not fool Jesus, because He will tell them to “begone, you workers of iniquity.”

Following the commandments is necessary if you believed “everything” what Jesus said and done.

The difference is that Catholics maintain that you can lose your salvation, and Protestants maintain that if you walk away from the faith that the Bible tells us that it just goes to prove that “they went out [from us], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19)

Catholic teachings maintains that you can lose your salvation when you commit a sin. The only to gain it back is through repentance by receiving the Sacrament of Penance/ Reconciliation. The priest acts in the Person of Christ, so in actuality, it is Jesus who forgives your sin not the priest. The priest is merely the instrument of God. For it is the Name of Jesus, that sins are forgiven.

Exactly. That is why Protestants and Catholics are really not that far apart in their understanding. The difference is that Catholics emphasize that you can lose your salvation, which is a statement that Protestants consider heresy.

Perhaps, your way of thinking differs than some Protestants. I have a discussion with a Protestant that tells me that, he doesn’t have to worry about obeying the commandments. All he does is believe. I asked what commandment do you not follow? He replied, “I do not go to Church on Sunday.”

 

[Mannyfit75]

There is no Scriptural evidence for “once saved, always saved”. That’s a cheap phrase invented by those who think a sinner’s prayer at the age of eight can save a person no matter their manner of life.

It’s funny how this idea springs from “Calvinists”, but, as I read the “Institutes”, I can’t help but find myself thinking about Calvin laughing at these doctrines. Calvin believed in the perseverance of the saints, the Holy Spirit empowering the saints for sanctification in following the Lord’s commands. Calvin never mentioned as cheap a view of the atonement as many professing Christians do today.

I posted about the origins of OSAS. It comes from the theological point of view of Calvin…

 

[Mannyfit75]

because you also believe that OSAS means that you don’t have to follow God’s commandments. But that is false

Then Once-Saved-Always-Saved isn’t really Once-Saved-Always-Saved because when you break the commandment of God, you lost your salvation. Your saved status is LOST. This doesn’t not make any logical sense at all, not to mention my common sense tells me that this doctrine just twisting words in the Bible to fit a Calvinistic point of view. How can you claim that once you accept Jesus Christ as your Personal Lord and Savior as a One Time Process, and you have feeling within you that you are saved because you accepted Jesus. A week later, you are tempted to commit thief. Was that just all feelings? How can you be certain of that?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Actually, Catholics already do buy into this,

We are discussing Protestant doctrine of OSAS. As to Catholics buying into this, they are making a fool out of themselves if they believe in OSAS.