Scriptural evidence for Once-saved-always-saved?

[PEPCIS]

Of course the obvious problem is that a Christian will do good works, and will not do good works but will actually do evil as well. .

Let me start by prefacing my answer with this statement: I agree with much of what some Catholics have written here regarding “cheap grace”, that Protestants advocate that a person can “accept Jesus into their heart” and then forget about living for the One who died for them. I do not believe in such a thing.

You Catholics are absolutely correct that the Bible has no such thing as “Cheap grace” anywhere in its pages.

That is why Jesus said that you will know them by their fruits. If a person has TRULY been converted, then he will become a new creation. He will be “born again”, not of flesh and blood, but of the Spirit of God. This Spiritual birth comes with its own “spiritual genes”, which direct the new believer and orient his life, attitude, and behavior TOWARD God, whereas in times past, he was oriented away from God and toward Satan (“wherein times past, you used to walk according to the course of the world, according to the prince of the power of the air” - Ephesians 2).

Biggie:

The problem with sin is its duplicity in respect to human nature. Often a Christian will say he intends to do good, but actually does evil (rationalization) Sin involves self deception, and when one has been dishonest with himself, by what vehicle does he arrive at the conclusion that self deception has ceased, that his profession of faith (which in itself is an act, a work) is not self serving and deceptive as well? In my view, Protestantism offers no advice on the matter, and the sinful person is left a formula with which to attempt to reform.

I agree with your perception. You are not far off the mark in your assessment. Protestantism does not properly understand or teach the doctrine of OSAS, because they tend to embrace this “cheap grace.” I side with my Catholic friends in saying that a true believer will do good works. As James said, faith without works is a dead faith - it is NOT a true, saving faith.

 

[neophyte]

…The Bible says that you are saved by grace through faith, so are we to say that we are saved by faith, AND grace, AND works?..

You’re putting words in our mouths.

We are saved by grace through faith, and faith is a work.

…What you fail to understand is that it is GOD’S LOVE, not ours, that is important in this equation. We respond to His love. It is GOD’S WORK, not ours, that is important in this equation. We respond to His work…

“We respond.” Yes, and to respond is to do something… in other words, it’s a work.

The question “what must I do to be saved” was NOT answered with “you don’t have to do anything.”

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Well, I can understand why it is that you believe that OSAS cheapens Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, because you also believe that OSAS means that you don’t have to follow God’s commandments. But that is false.

Why do you follow the commandments then, if you believe that your Salvation is Assured? All you need is to believe, according to your doctrine?

It’s like the movie, “The Count of Monte Cristo” with James Caviezel. Have you seen that movie? The Count is thrown into prison on false charges, and while in prison, he learns how to defend himself, and he also recieves a treasure map from a dying priest. He then escapes to a nearby island where he is met by a band of pirates and forced to fight another pirate who is being punished for some bad deed.

Of course, the Count has learned the art of self-defense, and he quickly defeats the pirate, but instead of killing him as the rules called for by the Pirate Captain, he drives the knife to its hilt in the sand next to the pirates head, and he instructs him not to move an inch, or else he will kill him.

He then pleads to the Pirate Captain for the pirate’s life, and he is successful. He then turns to the defeated pirate, and he offers him his hand and helps him to his feet. The defeated pirate grabs the lapels of his shirt and looks him square in the eyes, and says: “I am your man for life!!!”

You see, when Jesus saves someone, this salvation is not a cheap grace that can be forgotten, but it is an act that produces in the new believer this sense of awe that the Creator of the Universe actually could consider him worthy of His attentions and affections.

There is this sense that our lives were lost, and now God has redirected our lives, and has spiritually saved us from our total destruction. We were headed to total destruction!!! Our lives “were bought with a price, therefore [we are commanded to] glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.” (1 Corinthians 6:20)

We are now like that defeated pirate who comes to realize that if not for this solitary act of a savior, we would be dead. What are we to do with our lives, now that they have been redeemed by Him? We are to live for Him. But even more, WE WANT TO DO THIS!!

Sorry for the long explanation, but I hope it helps.

 

[Primox]

Sure, AFTER you obtain salvation. Working it out is a life-long learning process. It’s like being given a rubics cube, and you spend your life learning how to solve it. Just because you put the cube on the shelf for a while doesn’t mean that you don’t own it. It just means that you aren’t paying any attention to it.

Does God ask us to work-out an already-solved Rubik’s cube? I think not. Not that I think this analogy gets us any closer to the truth. You say “AFTER” as if it implies something has been finalized. That’s a lofty assumption. Salvation is past-tense (“after” - as you’ve termed it): Ephesians 2:8–9: “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” Salvation is present-tense: Philippians 2:12: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” Salvation is future tense: Romans 13:11 “Our salvation is nearer than when we first believed.” This last one is not simply to say we’ve been saved and we’re one day closer to death - what edification would there be in that? Paul uses the word “nearer” as a relative term (as only ‘nearer’ could mean). Paul, writing to believers, knows how proximal or distant we may be from fully accepting salvation, even having ‘received salvation’ - even knowing the gospel and believing in Christ. [Read the posted articles for a better treatment]

Let’s not forget the frequently-plugged Hebrews 6:4-8:

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age Who, by grace have been saved through faith], if they fall away If they do not keep the Lords commandments], to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land People; believers] that produces One must work to produce] thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned Salvation will be lost].

This is not written in the language of Once-saved/Always-saved. I agree with the others that OSAS doctrine is less of an appeal to a long-conceiled truth, and more of an induction for spiritual laxity.

 

[PEPCIS]

Perhaps, your way of thinking differs than some Protestants.

Yes, I belong to a group of Protestants who are protesting Protestants. I don’t fit the typical Protestant mold, because I believe that many Protestants are in error in their doctrines, such as Dispensationalism, and Lordship Salvation.

Manny:

I have a discussion with a Protestant that tells me that, he doesn’t have to worry about obeying the commandments. All he does is believe. I asked what commandment do you not follow? He replied, “I do not go to Church on Sunday.”

I do not know this fellow, but I would seriously question his standing with the Lord. I would stand with Paul who said that we are to “examine yourselves, whether you be in the faith.” (2Cor. 13:5)

 

[QuickCat]

Our apostle, Paul, writes to the Ephesians - “That we should be to the praise of His Glory; In whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the Word of Truth, the GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION; in whom also after ye BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that Holy Spirit of promise.” 1:12,13.

Now that is God doing the sealing. Now if one can be lost after salvation, that seal is not really a seal at all. If one can be lost after being saved in what sense was he ever saved? And what does one have to do in order to be saved again?

Don’t you see that our Lord Jesus Christ paid the full penalty for every sin you and I will ever commit [Col. 2:13]? When He saved you it was complete and final.

Grace and Peace

 

[Mannyfit75]

It’s like the movie, “The Count of Monte Cristo” with James Caviezel. Have you seen that movie? The Count is thrown into prison on false charges, and while in prison, he learns how to defend himself, and he also recieves a treasure map from a dying priest. He then escapes to a nearby island where he is met by a band of pirates and forced to fight another pirate who is being punished for some bad deed.

I have seen it but like I said before OSAS is not taught in Scripture. There is no passage in Scripture that states that we can keep our salvation. We lost.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Our apostle, Paul, writes to the Ephesians - “That we should be to the praise of His Glory; In whom ye also trusted, after ye heard the Word of Truth, the GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION; in whom also after ye BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that Holy Spirit of promise.” 1:12,13.

Now that is God doing the sealing. Now if one can be lost after salvation, that seal is not really a seal at all. If one can be lost after being saved in what sense was he ever saved? And what does one have to do in order to be saved again?

Don’t you see that our Lord Jesus Christ paid the full penalty for every sin you and I will ever commit [Col. 2:13]? When He saved you it was complete and final.

Grace and Peace

So you say that Judas was saved and not damned?

 

[Mannyfit75]

I have a question for those who affirm the belief of OSAS.

Do you declare yourself sinful, or pure?

 

[zmockbee]

I posted about the origins of OSAS. It comes from the theological point of view of Calvin…

It is a perversion of Calvin in the least.

 

[Mannyfit75]

This parable by Jesus contract OSAS:

John 15: 1:

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinedresser.
2: Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
3: You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you.
4: Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5: I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6: If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.
7: If you abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you.
8: By this my Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be my disciples.
9: As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you; abide in my love.
10: If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love.

 

[ScotchIrish]

Manny, i think you and i are on the same page that faith by it self is dead. Everything works togertherfor they that follow the Lord. If we do not follow him, we can be lost.
Scotchirish

 

[Carlan]

Hi Peter. I am a Protestant, so I thought I’d try to reply to you and some of the other Catholics to show that there is actually a method to our reasoning that is quite sane!!

Let me point out to you that Protestants have James 2:19 in “their” Bible too! The difference is not in interpretation, but in reconciling those two thoughts together in the Bible. The Bible says that you are saved by grace through faith, so are we to say that we are saved by faith, AND grace, AND works?

In order to reconcile these passages, we must build for ourselves the correct understanding of how God proceeds in the work of salvation - after all, salvation is ENTIRELY His work, not any of ours, and on that Catholics agree with Protestants.

God tells us that if it were not for His love, we would never be saved. He tells us in 1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He FIRST loved us.” Which is what 1 Cor.13:13 refers to as the “greatest of these.”

*You say that 1 Cor.13:13 means that “Then you can make the point that love requires you to do something(works). If you loved someone, but never told them or never took care of them, what good is the love?” * What you fail to understand is that it is GOD’S LOVE not ours, that is important in this equation. We respond to His love. It is GOD’WORK not ours, that is important in this equation. We respond to His work.

I’m not really sure I understand your question here. All I can say is that if you read all of Romans 3, you will find that the law is a schoolmaster which brings us to the knowledge of how we fall far short of God’s glory, and this should expose our consciences to the understanding that there is nothing that we can do in our power to bring about salvation.
Hope that helps.

Pepcis, I believe sometimes you have to read between the lines, in quoting 1Cor,13, as he did, could have possibly caused you to misunderstand him. I feel Peter understands perfectly well that it is God’s gift of grace which allows us to respond in Faith through and in his love. Carlan.

 

[Philthy]

Can someone please cite Scriptural evidence that shows that it is not just simply necessary for a person only to believe that Jesus came and died on a cross (e.g., that it is not necessary to always go to church, confess one’s sins, etc.) in order to be saved?

My mother thinks that a person only has to believe that a person need only believe that Jesus came and died on a cross in order to go to heaven; …

First order of business: **
There is a difference between “being saved” and “going to Heaven”! ** Big difference! Being saved happens during and throughout your earthly life. Going to Heaven happens after your earthly life has been completed and after you have been judged by God. Not everyone who is “saved” during their earthly life is Heaven-bound. Scripture is full of conditions - other than “confession and belief” - in order to inherit the kingdom of God (Heaven). See 1 Cor 6 for some details.
The first verse that comes to my mind which opposes the idea that it is “only necessary to believe” is from Christ himself:
Matthew 6:11 If you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your Father forgive your transgressions.How simple is that? If you dont forgive others you wont be forgiven by God. Ask any Christian whether being forgiven by God for ones sins is a requirement of being saved and of going to Heaven. All agree that our sins must be forgiven. Christ says that forgiving others is a REQUIRED CONDITION for salvation.

 

[Philthy]

PEPCIS:

Well, I can understand why it is that you believe that OSAS cheapens Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, because you also believe that OSAS means that you don’t have to follow God’s commandments. But that is false.

So you believe that if you are saved that you will be unable to sin against the Commandments???

…because Catholics claim that Christians must follow the commandments of God. The difference is that Protestants understand that false professors will TRY to follow God’s commandments, but in the end they will not fool Jesus, because He will tell them to “begone, you workers of iniquity.”

Catholics say we must obey God’s Commandments because Christ said so; Peter, Paul, John and James said so, and the author of Hebrews said so.

The difference is that Catholics maintain that you can lose your salvation, and Protestants maintain that if you walk away from the faith that the Bible tells us that it just goes to prove that “they went out [from us], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19)

And the Protestant version is hogwash. People fall away from faith all the time. It’s called not persevering to the end - which is also in Scripture. Saying that “they never had faith” only after someone has fallen away is a useless, pathetic attempt to justify a useless claim - the claim that salvation is by faith alone. If you cant determine whether one has genuine faith apart from their behavior, what is the point of making the claim??? Does it do anyone any good?

Exactly. That is why Protestants and Catholics are really not that far apart in their understanding. The difference is that Catholics emphasize that you can lose your salvation, which is a statement that Protestants consider heresy.

Scripture is clear on the ability for the “saved” to not “inherit the kingdom of God”. See 1Cor 6:9 and James 2:12 and 2:24 if you are in denial about some basics of the faith.

 

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

Well, I can understand why it is that you believe that OSAS cheapens Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross, because you also believe that OSAS means that you don’t have to follow God’s commandments. But that is false.

Manny:

Why do you follow the commandments then, if you believe that your Salvation is Assured? All you need is to believe, according to your doctrine?

PEPCIS:

It’s like the movie, “The Count of Monte Cristo” with James Caviezel. Have you seen that movie? The Count is thrown into prison on false charges, and while in prison, he learns how to defend himself, and he also recieves a treasure map from a dying priest. He then escapes to a nearby island where he is met by a band of pirates and forced to fight another pirate who is being punished for some bad deed.

I have seen it but like I said before, OSAS is not taught in Scripture. There is no passage in Scripture that states that we can keep our salvation. We lost.

First off, you asked why I followed the Commandments. I gave you the analogy of the Count of Monte Cristo. I believe that is a very good explanation for the actions of believers once they come to Christ and receive salvation.

Secondly, I actually never addressed OSAS. It’s like you’re blaming me for answering the question you asked, instead of answering the question that you didn’t ask.

The fact is, there is a Scriptural basis for OSAS. Others have already shown that. The real debate is not whether there are verses which support OSAS, but how do we, as Christians, reconcile those verses with the commandments in the Bible which tell us that we must work.

 

[PEPCIS]

Pepcis, I believe sometimes you have to read between the lines, in quoting 1Cor,13, as he did, could have possibly caused you to misunderstand him. I feel Peter understands perfectly well that it is God’s gift of grace which allows us to respond in Faith through and in his love. Carlan.

Well I guess there must not be any debate between us then.

 

[PEPCIS]

So you believe that if you are saved that you will be unable to sin against the Commandments???

Absolutely not. What I am trying to drive at is that our ORIENTATION is changed. Paul tells us that we are a new creation in Christ. If we are a different creature, then that means that we have a new character and identity. We are not like all the other people of the world.

If the rest of the world is chasing after their own personal pleasures and desires, then that means that Christians must be different - not because we want to prove that we are different, but because we are. It’s like the saying that “We sin because we are sinners, we are not sinners because we sin.” You are putting the cart before the horse if you try to say that we work because we must. It is more correct to state that we work because it is part of our new spiritual nature.

With that said, Christians will still sin. That’s because we still live in this body, even though we have gained a new spiritual identity. As long as we are still residents of the flesh, we are still enticed by the world.

Philthy:

Catholics say we must obey God’s Commandments because Christ said so; Peter, Paul, John and James said so, and the author of Hebrews said so.

And Protestants say so too.

 

[Confessor01]

And Protestants say so too.

Troof.

Protestants (at least, Reformed Protestants) don’t deny that we are obliged to keep the law of God after salvation. We deny that it is as a means of justification.

 

[Carlan]

In what you have written, I found this the most interesting.

Of course the obvious problem is that a Christian will do good works, and will not do good works but will actually do evil as well. . And of course you can love someone and be happy to ignore them, and then be sorry that you ignored them, and then love them and ignore them again. Did one love the other in the end? How is the other to know, and more significantly how is one to know oneself?

The problem with sin is its duplicity in respect to human nature. Often a Christian will say he intends to do good, but actually does evil (rationalization) Sin involves self deception, and when one has been dishonest with himself, by what vehicle does he arrive at the conclusion that self deception has ceased, that his profession of faith (which in itself is an act, a work) is not self serving and deceptive as well? In my view, Protestantism offers no advice on the matter, and the sinful person is left a formula with which to attempt to reform.

The record of actual life is not as you have depicted, but the precise issue is that the verdict is mixed.

Right Biggie, Thank God for the Universal Church, for His Love and sanctifying grace. We have his love especally in the Sacrament of Reconciliation and the Holy Eucharist. How blessed we are!. Carlan

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