Scriptural evidence for Once-saved-always-saved?

[Carlan]

Irrelevant?? How could this possibly be “irrelevant”? It is how we are defined. We couldn’t possibly remain the same person, because if we did, then we would not be a “new creation in Christ Jesus.”

Let’s be clear here: I am not the one that is “introducing the reality that our “orientation” has changed.” God did that. For example, in Ephesians 2, Paul states that we used to be a different type of person, with an orientation AWAY from the things of God. He states unequivocally that:

“in time past you used to walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

That’s the picture of a person totally immersed in the world, and unable to choose God in any positive capacity. But then, Paul goes on to explain that we were changed. He tells us that,

“God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Notice that the “choice” given to us is to MAKE us sit with Christ Jesus in heavenly places.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Answer me “yes” or “no”.

That’s not a “yes” or “no” type of question. The “obligations” are no different than the “obligations” you have to breath. I could command you to breath, but do you think that is necessary?

The reason that we are commanded to follow God’s laws is because there is a contrast between law and grace being illustrated. “Do this, and thou shalt live”, compared to “Believe (have faith) and thou shalt be saved.”

That is why the rich, young ruler walked away saddened - because he had already done everything that was in the law, and it still was not enough to satisfy Jesus. Instead, Jesus told him he had to sell everything he had and follow Jesus. If the law could save, then THAT man would have (indeed, SHOULD HAVE) been saved.

I’ll have to try and pick this up later tomorrow…hope you have a great night everyone!!

Oh my Pepcis! how you do love to shoot those darts, and to think I thought you only had about 20% more to go before becoming one of us, can’t wait until tomorrow. Carlan

 

[QuickCat]

Our Lord spent His last 40 days on earth [using the O.T. Scriptures] teaching the eleven about the kingdom promised to Israel in those Scriptures. He opened their understganding. So, they ask the logical question: “Will You, AT THIS TIME, RESTORE again the kikngdom to Israel?” He had not covered the time element so He told them it “was not for them to know the time…” He gave the eleven the commission to go to [1] Israel [Note Mark 7:27], then [2] Samaria and then [3] To all the world.
After our Lord’s ascension the eleven make it their first order of business to bring the number back up to 12 [Note Matthew 19:28]. All of Peter’s speeches in early Acts are directed to Israel. He presents the Lord in resurrection to sit on David’s throne. He does not preach the good news of the cross [The Lord’s death, burial and resurrection for the forgiveness of sin]. He doesn’t even mention the D,B,R. In Acts 10 he is given a commission to go to Cornelius and he [reluctantly] goes. Now he had been given a commission in Acts 1:8 [above]; when he reaches Cornelius he asks, “Why did you send for me?” Then he tells Cornelius that any man who fears God and works righteousness is accepted by Him. Cornelius is a picture of Gentiles coming into that kingdom our Lord taught about in the last 40 days. This will be on earth. Contrast Acts 10:34 with Romans 4:5. We live in the dispensation of the grace of God. Our hope and calling is heavenly. Israel’s is earthly kingdom.

 

[Carlan]

Irrelevant?? How could this possibly be “irrelevant”? It is how we are defined. We couldn’t possibly remain the same person, because if we did, then we would not be a “new creation in Christ Jesus.”

Let’s be clear here: I am not the one that is “introducing the reality that our “orientation” has changed.” God did that. For example, in Ephesians 2, Paul states that we used to be a different type of person, with an orientation AWAY from the things of God. He states unequivocally that:

“in time past you used to walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.”

That’s the picture of a person totally immersed in the world, and unable to choose God in any positive capacity. But then, Paul goes on to explain that we were changed. He tells us that,

“God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And has raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

Notice that the “choice” given to us is to MAKE us sit with Christ Jesus in heavenly places.

Have you stopped beating your wife yet? Answer me “yes” or “no”.

That’s not a “yes” or “no” type of question. The “obligations” are no different than the “obligations” you have to breath. I could command you to breath, but do you think that is necessary?

The reason that we are commanded to follow God’s laws is because there is a contrast between law and grace being illustrated. “Do this, and thou shalt live”, compared to “Believe (have faith) and thou shalt be saved.”

That is why the rich, young ruler walked away saddened - because he had already done everything that was in the law, and it still was not enough to satisfy Jesus. Instead, Jesus told him he had to sell everything he had and follow Jesus. If the law could save, then THAT man would have (indeed, SHOULD HAVE) been saved.

I’ll have to try and pick this up later tomorrow…hope you have a great night everyone!!

Sorry about my last post Pepcis, : I am sure people in the forum have already mentioned that the Gospel tells us: I am saved(Ro 8-24 (Eph2 5-8, but I am also being saved(1cor 2-15 ) and I hope to be saved.
Marcos Grodi the Apologist says, “Sometimes when we engage in polemics the debate ends up blinding us to what is really important, the necessity of changed hearts”. 'All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another(Jn 13-35)
I rather think that theology and interpretation can mess us up at times, Christians going off in all directions–last I heard there are more than 30,000 different denominations…not the unity our Lord wanted for his Church, is it? Carlan

 

[Biggie]

Catholic teachings maintains that you can lose your salvation when you commit a sin. The only to gain it back is through repentance by receiving the Sacrament of Penance/ Reconciliation. The priest acts in the Person of Christ, so in actuality, it is Jesus who forgives your sin not the priest. The priest is merely the instrument of God. For it is the Name of Jesus, that sins are forgiven.

Howdy…
I’ve never posted but have done a lot of reading.

I agree that confession is an integral part of reconcilliation…but to ask Christ for forgiveness for a sin commited has cleansed us of our sin. Is not the sacrament of reconcilliation an aide in bestowing graces and strength to avoid the sin again…as well as restoring us to the community? I don’t believe that if I commit a serious sin and ask for forgiveness with sincerity that I will be damned if I die before being able to go to confession.

Just my thoughts.

spn82756

I would respond as to your last statement regarding repentance in extremis that in Catholic thought, you may be correct depending upon the circumstances. Others here can bear me out more completely, since I am not a scholar as some here are.

However, I am concerned that your comment seems to question the centrality of confession as a whole to forgiveness, and that would not be consistent with Catholic teaching. Reconciliation is, as a rule, necessary to the forgiveness of sin. I would only add with good and substantial reason. Reconciliation goes beyond the purposes you have outlined, to actually accomplish forgiveness, neither is a “sincere” prayer to Our Lord a substitute for the confession and pardon of mortal sin.

Consider how, outside of confession, one is to gauge, for example, the “sincerity” of one’s repentance? If one is unwilling to openly reveal the content of one’s sin to a priest sitting in the place of Jesus, how sincere is one?

 

[Chaldean_Rite]

The Catholic position on this issue is that we don’t have an absolute assurance of salvation but rather, a moral assurance]. Furthermore we acknowledge that salvation is a 3-dimensional reality with past Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5-8], present 1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15], and future Rom. 5:9-10, 1 Cor. 3:12-15] components.

Remember that we are judged by what we do on this earth, good or bad. [see 2 Cor. 5:10]

If this, “once saved, always saved” notion were the truth, what about Romans 13:11: “…For our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed”, a reference to future salvation.

By being “saved” [in the protestant sense] we would have nothing to hope for anymore because we KNOW that Heaven is ours. This is wrong and unbiblical because our salvation is founded upon the hope of something says Paul: “For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees? “Romans 8:24].

St. Paul reminds us in 1 Cor. 9:24-27], which is an analogy compared to salvation, that “I myself may be disqualified”(from the race). Do these sounds like the words of confidence? Contrast this with the confidence that the majority of “born again” Christians display about their Salvation.

Anyone who is claims that Heaven is theirs by virtue of faith alone (Sola Fide) is wrong because there would be nothing to hope for anymore since you already would have already won the imperishable
crown [recall **Romans 8:24 above].

Hence, the late, 16-th century doctrine of OSAS is anti-scriptural, not found within the teachings of the Apostolic Church, and must be rejected for its false claims for true Christian living and belief.

The question, “Are You Saved?” which comes up so often in this discourse can be answered in the following way: “I am already saved by the Sacrifice of Christ on the Cross; and as St. Paul instructs I am currently "working out my salvation with fear and trembling’Philippians 2:12] ; and I hope for the future Salvation Jesus promised for the ones who persevere in obeying His commands” Jn: 14:15]. Amen.

In Christ through Mary,

Chaldean Rite

 

[spn82756]

I would respond as to your last statement regarding repentance in extremis that in Catholic thought, you may be correct depending upon the circumstances. Others here can bear me out more completely, since I am not a scholar as some here are.

However, I am concerned that your comment seems to question the centrality of confession as a whole to forgiveness, and that would not be consistent with Catholic teaching. Reconciliation is, as a rule, necessary to the forgiveness of sin. I would only add with good and substantial reason. Reconciliation goes beyond the purposes you have outlined, to actually accomplish forgiveness, neither is a “sincere” prayer to Our Lord a substitute for the confession and pardon of mortal sin.

Consider how, outside of confession, one is to gauge, for example, the “sincerity” of one’s repentance? If one is unwilling to openly reveal the content of one’s sin to a priest sitting in the place of Jesus, how sincere is one?

I do consider the confession to be an integral part of the forgiveness process. What I am trying to say is that someone who has been faithful to Christ and stumbles is not condemned if they die after expressing sorrow for a mortal sin and have not been to confession. Since the Catholic church does not propose to know who goes to heaven and who doesn’t (except for canonized saints) I do not think there is any conflict in what I have said. If someone is a non-practicing Catholic, or has fallen away for a while, he/she will still be given a Catholic funeral if the family and he/she wants. We are still encouraged to pray for that persons soul. The Church must be assuming that the person may have seeked forgiveness and received it before death. Why else pray for someone soul if they are condemned for sins not confessed?

I am interested in your reply. This is one of the things that has weighed on my mind for a long time. Another is the concept that mortal sin completely separates us from God, even our prayers.

BTW…I do not believe in OSAS. We are a work in progress.

Steve

 

[Biggie]

I do consider the confession to be an integral part of the forgiveness process. What I am trying to say is that someone who has been faithful to Christ and stumbles is not condemned if they die after expressing sorrow for a mortal sin and have not been to confession. Since the Catholic church does not propose to know who goes to heaven and who doesn’t (except for canonized saints) I do not think there is any conflict in what I have said. If someone is a non-practicing Catholic, or has fallen away for a while, he/she will still be given a Catholic funeral if the family and he/she wants. We are still encouraged to pray for that persons soul. The Church must be assuming that the person may have seeked forgiveness and received it before death. Why else pray for someone soul if they are condemned for sins not confessed?

I am interested in your reply. This is one of the things that has weighed on my mind for a long time. Another is the concept that mortal sin completely separates us from God, even our prayers.

BTW…I do not believe in OSAS. We are a work in progress.

Steve

I essentially agree with what you have written, modifying only by offering that confession is the beginning and the end of the “forgiveness process”. In other words, properly confessed sin is forgiven sin in heaven and on earth. Period. While the temporal effects of sin will remain, the sin is forgiven. So reconciliation is the direct and clear path.

Not being a theologian or scholar, as best I understand (and hope), a person making an act of contrition or similar profession of sorrow with the desire for reconciliation without the opportunity to confess at the time of death is believed to be forgiven.

We do not know what interiorly transpires between a person and God and I agree we should not judge a person’s standing before the Lord. We do know our God, the lengths to which he has gone to secure the salvation of each person individually and his love for each person. It could not be wrong, therefore, to hope and expect our God will find any opportunity to bring his beloved to his side. That opportunity might include the preponderance of heartfelt prayers offered by those who love and care for the deceased.

Being an accomplished sinner, I can offer that in my experience mortal sin does not occur in a vacuum. It is the culmination of a pattern of behavior and is often one in a pattern of mortal sin. So too the overcoming of mortal sin in our lives may be that process of reconciliation to which you refer. Through confession I obtain the forgiveness of sin, but the underlying thought stream, habits and pattern of life that lead to it are reversed through hard work in time with the help of the Holy Spirit. But time is cut short and surely for most our reformation is interrupted by our death.

In the prayers and offerings made for us by those who remember us, joined to the sacrifice of Christ which makes all possible, God has a case for the justice of mercy. Those prayers help to perfect the person who offers them also, in as much as they are acts of love made in faith.

Sorry, I didn’t mean to be wordy. Having lost a loved one to a sudden accidental death, I have had some thoughts on the matter.

 

[PEPCIS]

Hello Philthy!! Hope you had a good weekend.
"PEPCIS:

If the rest of the world is chasing after their own personal pleasures and desires, then that means that Christians must be different - not because we want to prove that we are different, but because we are.

Please define the word “must” according to your intended use above.

“Must” means that if we want to we can work against our new nature, but we will be working uphill, so to speak. In times past, we used to do it much easier. The path to sin was all downhill. Now we have a new orientation, and the path to sin is uphill.

Put another way, a leopard COULD eat raspberries and olives, but it is against his nature. He literally has no taste for such things. For the same token, a Christian CAN sin, but it is against his new nature. He has no real taste for such things.

Philthy:

Is there an eternal consequence to NOT “being different”?

Yes, there is an eternal consequence to not being different. But when Christians act so different from what God expects us to, we are commanded to treat that person as if he were a heathen. When he truly repents, he can come back into the fold. He doesn’t get saved again, he just comes back to a right relationship with the body of Christ, and therefore with God.

Philthy:

If yes, what is the eternal consequence? If no, why “must” we be different.

The eternal consequence for those who are not different from the world is eternal damnation. That is why we MUST be different. It makes no sense that God would say that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, and then to say that this new creation has no new nature. If you truly have a new nature, then it stands to reason that YOU WILL have a new nature. That is why I say “must.”

You are putting the cart before the horse if you try to say that we work because we must. It is more correct to state that we work because it is part of our new spiritual nature.

Philthy:

I dont disagree! But what I think is more to the point of the thread is, when we DONT work, arent bearing fruit, etc. Does such a realty speak to the status of our new spiritual nature, or not?

As I hope you are beginning to understand my position, if you aren’t bearing ANY fruit, I would surely doubt your salvation, as works is the only evidence that humans have to guage if others are saved. But the Bible makes it clear that our only course of action toward non-believers is to keep them from the church. Only believers are allowed to partake of the sacraments.

Philthy:

Is there any eternal consequence are we exposed to if we unrepentently choose to NOT bear fruit and NOT “work out” our salvation?

Can you imagine that you could ever be the type of person who would "unrepentantly choose to NOT bear fruit and NOT “work out” your salvation???

With that said, Christians will still sin. That’s because we still live in this body, even though we have gained a new spiritual identity. As long as we are still residents of the flesh, we are still enticed by the world.

Philthy:

The question, however, is not whether we will sin, but whether certain, freely chosen unrepentant sins preclude saved Christians from inheriting the kingdom of God.

You are either saved or you aren’t. If you are saved, I do not believe that there is any sin which can prevent your inheriting the kingdom of God. I do not believe that King David had ever lost his inheritance, despite having murdered and committing adultery. However, I do believe that God punishes us for those sins that we commit as His children. After all, God promises to chastise His children. (“But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.” Hebrews 12:8)

Philthy:

IMHO Paul clearly articulates this in 1Cor 6:9 as well as elsewhere. What do you say?

I Corinthians chapter 6 deals with sin in the Church. Specifically, I believe Paul is making it clear that we should not have any such sin as commonplace occurence in our midst. That is why Paul tells them, “Don’t you understand that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?” In other words, if they aren’t going to inherit the kingdom of God, why are they in your midst?

That’s why Paul starts off this chapter by telling them that if “. . .we shall judge angels, doesn’t it stand to reason that we should be judging those things that pertain to this life?”

In other words, if there are such sins in the Church body, it stands to reason that they are probably not believers. Why are believers in the body of Christ? Because WE ARE NOT JUDGING THEM, as we are commanded to do.

Philthy:

Are there certain sins which saved Christians may commit which, if unrepented of at the time of death, lead to a loss of the inheritance of the kingdom of God (Heaven)? Yes or No, please.

I do not believe that a TRUE Christian can lose their salvation. However, with that said, I do not believe that a true Christian will remain unrepentant.

 

[Carlan]

Hello Philthy!! Hope you had a good weekend.

“Must” means that if we want to we can work against our new nature, but we will be working uphill, so to speak. In times past, we used to do it much easier. The path to sin was all downhill. Now we have a new orientation, and the path to sin is uphill.

Put another way, a leopard COULD eat raspberries and olives, but it is against his nature. He literally has no taste for such things. For the same token, a Christian CAN sin, but it is against his new nature. He has no real taste for such things.

Yes, there is an eternal consequence to not being different. But when Christians act so different from what God expects us to, we are commanded to treat that person as if he were a heathen. When he truly repents, he can come back into the fold. He doesn’t get saved again, he just comes back to a right relationship with the body of Christ, and therefore with God.

The eternal consequence for those who are not different from the world is eternal damnation. That is why we MUST be different. It makes no sense that God would say that we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, and then to say that this new creation has no new nature. If you truly have a new nature, then it stands to reason that YOU WILL have a new nature. That is why I say “must.”

As I hope you are beginning to understand my position, if you aren’t bearing ANY fruit, I would surely doubt your salvation, as works is the only evidence that humans have to guage if others are saved. But the Bible makes it clear that our only course of action toward non-believers is to keep them from the church. Only believers are allowed to partake of the sacraments.

Can you imagine that you could ever be the type of person who would "unrepentantly choose to NOT bear fruit and NOT “work out” your salvation???

You are either saved or you aren’t. If you are saved, I do not believe that there is any sin which can prevent your inheriting the kingdom of God. I do not believe that King David had ever lost his inheritance, despite having murdered and committing adultery. However, I do believe that God punishes us for those sins that we commit as His children. After all, God promises to chastise His children. (“But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.” Hebrews 12:8)

I Corinthians chapter 6 deals with sin in the Church. Specifically, I believe Paul is making it clear that we should not have any such sin as commonplace occurence in our midst. That is why Paul tells them, “Don’t you understand that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?” In other words, if they aren’t going to inherit the kingdom of God, why are they in your midst?

That’s why Paul starts off this chapter by telling them that if “. . .we shall judge angels, doesn’t it stand to reason that we should be judging those things that pertain to this life?”

In other words, if there are such sins in the Church body, it stands to reason that they are probably not believers. Why are believers in the body of Christ? Because WE ARE NOT JUDGING THEM, as we are commanded to do.

I do not believe that a TRUE Christian can lose their salvation. However, with that said, I do not believe that a true Christian will remain unrepentant.

 

[Carlan]

You know what? It reall y is not what we say or what Paul says for that matter, it is what Jesus says and you will find plenty of what Jesus says in the Gospel of Matthew. Ponder the Beatitudes!Carlan.

 

[Carlan]

You know what? It reall y is not what we say or what Paul says for that matter, it is what Jesus says and you will find plenty of what Jesus says in the Gospel of Matthew. Ponder the Beatitudes!Carlan.

I would like to say just one more thing, Pepcis,We can judge sinful behavior,however only God can judge the intentions of individuals.C

 

[steve_b]

The question is How does one get unsaved…hum

God loves you…God bless

dieing in mortal sin

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Carlan,

Welcome to CAF - from what I have seen, this is a very dynamic and positive source for great information and genuine inspiration. Actually, it has been a real blessing to me! Glad you have joined us.

I would like to say just one more thing, Pepcis,We can judge sinful behavior,however only God can judge the intentions of individuals.C

There are many scriptgural quotes on evaluating behavior and actually judging it. We can not see into the heart - so, someone can have good intentions, but really do a dumb deed! Well, god judges the heart and that is all he person will have to be concerned about.

I am not trying to over-simplify here: just think of the last 30 minutes and look at just two things you did during that time. Now take a pencil and paper and write down the reasons why you action #1 and on another sheet of paper, the reasons you did acion #2. Now, put it aside for 24-hours and then take another look at it. Chances are you will have thought of other reasons you did / could have done this action. Does this invalidate the what you wrote down? No. These reasons could have easily bben as part of your sub-conscious - and only came to the surface once you wrote down this post.

God bless you1 \

 

[PEPCIS]

I would like to say just one more thing, Pepcis,We can judge sinful behavior,however only God can judge the intentions of individuals.C

Thank you, Carlan. I’m glad that you agreed with the Bible!!

God Bless

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Pepcis,

Actually, Carlan is agreeing the the folks who brought us all the Bible - and that would be the Catholic Chruch.

Thank you, Carlan. I’m glad that you agreed with the Bible!!

God Bless

Blessing to you

 

[Primox]

The Catholic position on this issue is that we don’t have an absolute assurance of salvation but rather, a moral assurance]…

Solid summary, CR.

Just out of curiousity, would it be distressing to any believers of OSAS if your doctrine was false? If salvation wasn’t locked in place? If our works were (as surely they will be) tried by fire?

 

[Carlan]

Hi, Carlan,

Welcome to CAF - from what I have seen, this is a very dynamic and positive source for great information and genuine inspiration. Actually, it has been a real blessing to me! Glad you have joined us.

There are many scriptgural quotes on evaluating behavior and actually judging it. We can not see into the heart - so, someone can have good intentions, but really do a dumb deed! Well, god judges the heart and that is all he person will have to be concerned about.

I am not trying to over-simplify here: just think of the last 30 minutes and look at just two things you did during that time. Now take a pencil and paper and write down the reasons why you action #1 and on another sheet of paper, the reasons you did acion #2. Now, put it aside for 24-hours and then take another look at it. Chances are you will have thought of other reasons you did / could have done this action. Does this invalidate the what you wrote down? No. These reasons could have easily bben as part of your sub-conscious - and only came to the surface once you wrote down this post.

God bless you1 \

Thanks Tom, I have a feeling this league is beyond this 83year old girl. I am going to leave the dart throwing up to the experts but I ask our precious Lord to bless each and everyone you mightly, I will be praying for you P ,20% isn’t all that much! Carlan

 

[PEPCIS]

Hi, Pepcis,

Actually, Carlan is agreeing the the folks who brought us all the Bible - and that would be the Catholic Chruch.

Blessing to you

Well, Hey, I also agree with the Catholic Church whenver she agrees with the Bible.

 

[PEPCIS]

You seem to have solved the obvious problem with OSAS with the conclusion that if a person sins he was not saved in the first place, as evidenced by his sin.

Yes, that would be true. There are plenty of places in Scripture to support that. But not because this is “evidenced by his sin” but because it is evidenced by his heart. His sin may be an indicator of where he stands in relationship to God and his fellow saint, but it is not necessarily an indicator of where he stands in salvation.

I believe that Catholics like to distinguish between mortal sins and venial sins, but the Bible makes no such distinguishment. As James says, if you have broken the law in one single point, you have broken the WHOLE law. (James 2:10) Breaking the law requires death of the sinner.

Now, if someone sins, I believe that Catholics maintain (probably because of James 2:10), that the sinner has re-entered spiritual death and requires salvation all over again. But that is folly, because this would require that the re-lapsed sinner “put Christ on the cross to an open shame” all over again. (Hebrews 6:6) Clearly, the writer of Hebrews rejects such a proposition.

So, if ANY sin is death, then we must reconcile how it is that ANY person can ever enter the Kingdom of God. It is impossible. But there is nothing impossible with God.

Biggie:

You also seem to be speaking as someone who has not lived a pattern of sin, broken it, relived it, etc… Those of us accomplished in our sins will confirm that metanoia or conversion is a daily process, a struggle if you will. Have we who sin and repent and sin again not been saved?

For Christ, salvation is a one-time event. What He accomplished on the cross is finished, and nothing could ever be added to it to make it real. However, for man, we are commanded to work out that gift of salvation everyday that we live. Paul tells us to “examine ourselves whether we are in the faith.” I have likened salvation to a Rubik’s cube, where both are received as a gift, but neither one is “solved” when you receive it. You must spend your time solving the “puzzle” of salvation. But you cannot mistake that you OWN salvation.

Biggie:

You also seem to be indicating that Our Lord’s sacrifice removes the effects of original sin.

The penalty of sin is death. Our Lord’s sacrifice is EFFICACIOUS. It is able to the utmost to remove the result of original sin - death. But that release from death is not given to the whole world, but to only those who receive it. “To as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become sons of God, to those that believe on his name.” (John 1:12)

Biggie:

You will remember that the effects of original sin are the interior proclivity, tendency, attraction to sin. While the sin itself is forgiven in baptism, the effects of original sin persist, thereby requiring our salvation in the first place.

This is where Catholics (IMHO) get it wrong, because they insist that baptism removes sin, instead of the effectual work of Christ on the cross. There is nothing that man can perform that can effect his salvation, including baptism. Salvation is something that Christ performs, and man accepts, not the other way around. The way that Catholics state it, salvation is something that man performs, and then Christ graciously accepts man’s work.

Biggie:

There is a difference between Redemption (the act accomplished by Christ) and Salvation (my achievement of the fruits of redemption).

You’ve stated it that way, but you have not proven it by any means.

 

[PEPCIS]

I think there are three ideas that we can get from this passage - and none endorese OSAS.

1.) Eph 1:3-6 From the very beginning of time, God knew what He was going to do - there were no surprises - what we are seeing is His Divine Plan. And, our salvation is from God strictly as an unmerited favor of His Will. The Catholic Church teaches that God wills the salvation of all men (1Tim:3-4) and that Christ died for all (1Tim2:6). But, man has free will and can choose whether to accept this most precious gift or reject it by rejecting the Commandments (Eph 5:18). Now the idea that man has Free Will and that God knew what each individual man would do from all eternity did not sit easily with Calvin and those who focus on predestination to the exclusion of free will. This is a major issue - and the only answer is that God loved us so much that He has allowed us freedom to accept or reject the Gift of His Son.

Hello again “T”. The idea that man has “free will” was rejected long ago, but is still clung to those who do so against reason and experience. You could ask a slave if he has free will, and you might even get an answer from him that he does. Yet if his will were free, would he not exercise it to be free from slavery?

Our experiences teach us that there is no such thing as free will. But we confuse the concept of man’s will, with the idea that the will is free. First you must recognize that all men have wills, and they exercise them all day long. But the exercising of the will is not the same as evidence for a will that is free.

I can place my grandchild in the back yard, but I restrict her will by keeping a fence around the yard. I place the fence there to restrict her will as a means of protecting her.

There are numerous examples from life that we can draw on to illustrate this fact that men do not have free wills. They are “fenced in” by rules and regulations; by demands from their bosses, wives, friends; by commitments to loan companies and credit cards.

How many times have you heard it said, “If I could win the lottery, I would do such and such”? We are limited by our resources and by our power. Yet God is UNLIMITED in His will, because anything that He desires can be accomplished immediately by a single thought from His mind.

God does not require money, or permission, or power. His will is truly free. On the other hand, man’s will can only be exercised within the confines of his own fence. Before we are saved, we are in Satan’s fence. We do his bidding, and we desire sin. But then, God takes and redeems us, and he removes us from Satan’s fence, and He places us in His own fence. We no longer desire to do the bidding of Satan.

All of a sudden, we have other choices that we never new that we had, and we have a new “owner” that we reply to. We then attempt to exercise our damaged wills for God.