Scriptural evidence for Once-saved-always-saved?

[PEPCIS]

"PEPCIS:

I agree. We MUST do something. But do you believe that the wicked will do things, or even have a desire to do anything righteous for God? Paul tells us that the gospel is FOOLISHNESS to those who are perishing. I don’t see anyone except the righteous performing good works.

Not all non-Christians are bad people.

True. But there are no people who are “good” in and of themselves. God is the only one that is good.

TheWhoFreak:

A work is not deemed good or bad by the person performing it, it has to do with the work itself. For example, lets say that Marylin Manson, a priest in the church of Satan and an anti-Christian (these are both true), gave 1,000,000$ to charity. Granted, there’s a slim chance of that happening, but this is a hypothetical scenario. Would that be a good work or not? What if an athiest went and volunteered at a soup kitchen 3 days out of the week, because he thinks it is the right thing to do, is that a good work?

No, neither one are “good” works. Because they are devoid of God, there is nothing good in them.

TheWhoFreak:

In my personal philosophy on people, I see the Yin-Yang sign. I know that even though all humans are sinful, we both have good and bad inside of us. What makes us “bad” or “good” is the choices we make. Heck, the Bible says we’ll be judged according to our choices.

That is the vision of the world. :tsktsk: It is the world that thinks that they can become good by their own efforts and the choices that they make. It was the driving philosophy in the movie with Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore - “Ghosts.” That is why so very few turn to God, because they don’t believe they need a higher power to perform good works. Indeed, that is why Jesus wept at the rich, young ruler who walked away from Jesus - because according to man it is impossible for a rich man to get into heaven, but “with God all things are possible.”

 

[PEPCIS]

PEPCIS, I find your posts in this thread intelligent, thoughtful, and respectful. I don’t have the time or inclination to read through all the responses here, so I think I will just address yours.

Hi BirdandBee. Thanks for the compliment. I hope that everyone here understands that I am not trying to bash Catholics. I look at the Bible, and I see it differently than Catholics. I enjoy the give and take of a healthy debate, because I learn things from it. Indeed, I have learned alot about Catholics since starting on these boards.

BirdandBee:

I think you’re performing a similar trick here that many Arminians use (for reference, I tend to view things from a more Thomist perspective, myself). You are rearranging Christ’s words into a formula more consistent with your doctrine: “He who is saved will endure to the end.” Christ is placing the salvation event after the period of endurance. Thus, one would logically conclude that enduring to the end precedes salvation.

Well, I agree what you said as far as how the logic works, except I do not agree that I am rearranging Christ’s words. To do that is wrong. However, it is important to remember that this particular portion of Scripture must be reconciled with other portions of Scripture.

As I noted, Christ is very specific about who will endure to the end in other places in Scripture. It is almost as though Catholics are saying, “Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!! I am the great and powerful Oz!!!” But in this case, it is “Pay no attention to what Christ said about who will endure to the end!!! He says that you must endure, and that is all you need to know!!”

BirdandBee:

I have a small essay on this, but small though it is, it is still too long for this thread, I think, because it is a tangent. I will attempt to summarize it, though I can post the whole thing if someone wants.

I, personally, would like to see your essay in its entirety. I would enjoy it.

 

[paul_c]

True. But there are no people who are “good” in and of themselves. God is the only one that is good.

 

[JustaServant]

1 Peter
Chapter 5

1 So I exhort the presbyters 2 among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed.
Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly.
Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock.
And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. 3
4 Likewise, you younger members, 5 be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: “God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble.”
So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
Cast all your worries upon him because he cares for you.
Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour.
Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings.
The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ (Jesus) will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little.
To him be dominion forever. Amen.
I write you this briefly through Silvanus, 6 whom I consider a faithful brother, exhorting you and testifying that this is the true grace of God. Remain firm in it.
The chosen one 7 at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.
Greet one another with a loving kiss. Peace to all of you who are in Christ.

If once saved is always saved then why would Peter write this?

Be sober and vigilant. Your opponent the devil is prowling around like a roaring lion looking for (someone) to devour.
Resist him, steadfast in faith, knowing that your fellow believers throughout the world undergo the same sufferings.
The God of all grace who called you to his eternal glory through Christ (Jesus) will himself restore, confirm, strengthen, and establish you after you have suffered a little.
To him be dominion forever. Amen.

**If Once saved is always saved then why would we be concerned about the devil? If we could not fall, why would we have to resist him? **

 

[BirdandBee]

James 2:17-20:

**Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”

You believe that God is one; You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?**

The demons do not have efficacious (effective) faith. Why is that? They do not obey God (duh!). So while faith and obedience might not be the same thing, faith at least implies obedience. James views faith as a good thing (“you do well”) but not complete in and of itself. He writes in chapter 2, verse 22:

You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

And yet, that last bit (works) is troublesome, because Paul also writes in Romans 4:3:

For what does the Scripture say? 'ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.'

Abraham was credited as righteous even before he had done anything righteous, because he had faith in the Lord. James says of this in chapter 2, verse 21:
**
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?**

So we have an apparent contradiction, but I don’t think it has to be.

What do we know so far? We know that to be pleasing to God and to effect salvation, the faith must be of an active quality. We already know that it is possible to have faith that is of an inactive quality. What does James think of this faith? Well, in his opinion it is dead. He does not dismiss faith out of hand (“you do well”) but he does caution that inactive faith will not avail us. In chapter 2, verse 14 he writes:

What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

James does not seem to think so. And as interesting as what he says is, it is almost equally interesting what he does not say. He does not say that these people of dead, workless faith do not have faith. He clearly and categorically states that their faith is ineffective, dead, useless, not pleasing to God. The intellectual assent is right on the mark, but if we do not wish to join the demons in Hell we must do a little better than that.

How does all this match up with what Paul writes? Paul writes that a man is justified by his faith. We see this most clearly in Ephesians 2:8-9:

**For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.**

So we may safely conclude that our salvation is not a result of what works we perform. Now pair this with what we learned from James. James says it is indeed possible to have faith that is displeasing to God; this faith is faith that does not work. It is a dead and empty faith, and it is not saving faith. So we know the faith Paul speaks of cannot be an intellectual assent. It must be a true commitment to God, and it must produce works. Lack of works is indicative of the faith that does not save.

In verse 10 Paul goes on:

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

So there are works that are pleasing to God; these are works done in faith. They make the faith that justified complete, and they prove the faith an active and robust one.

But here we encounter a dilemma. Works are not necessary justification, as we have established. And yet it is possible to 1) have faith and 2) do no good works. And this faith is displeasing to God. The implication is that it does not save.

But we are not saved by works! Ephesians 2:8-10 makes this abundantly clear.

But let’s look at Paul’s statement a little more carefully. For by grace you have been saved through faith. We see Abraham was justified his faith, but also that he was later justified by his works, and that his works made his faith complete. So was it his justification that was incomplete beforehand? I doubt it; that sounds rather like ‘half-pregnant’. I believe his justification was complete but ongoing, something that was not over in a flash but necessary to continually reaffirm. The works prior to his (or anyone else’s) justification (that is, first instance of faith) are displeasing to God, because they treat God like a debtor instead of a beloved Father. Not so works done after. Works done after complete faith, and together with faith, save. James asks if that man’s faith will save him, and if it is dead it will not, but if it is alive, surely it will, and if it is alive, it will produce good works. So for our initial justification we need faith that is alive. After that, well…Romans 11:22 reads:

Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

[BirdandBee]

Continuation:

To put this verse in context, Paul is speaking of the Jews falling into apostacy and apparently being abandoned by God. God extends his covenant with them to the Gentiles, and the terms of this new covenant are different from the last. Paul warns, though, that the Jews in abandoning him were also abandoned, cut off from his good graces. Paul warns us to that if we do not continue in his good graces the same will happen to us. I think the verse is pretty clearly talking about being cut off from salvation here, but I’ve had Christians argue fiercely with me over it, insisting that the context somehow changes the meaning. I don’t see that it does. The Jews as a people were cut off; if they are saved, it will not be through Judaism. The Gentiles were ‘grafted on’; if they fall into apostacy, the same fate awaits them. But I suggest reading the whole chapter for yourself and making up your own mind.

In conclusion, what I get from all this is while the initial point of justification is faith, the point of coming to faith in Christ, and no works preceding that faith in Christ may merit the justification, afterwards that faith must continually be reaffirmed – it must stay alive. “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Mt. 24: 13). You must continually be justified; otherwise, your faith is proved incomplete. I think this is why Paul speaks in the past tense. Faith is what initially justifies us apart from any works of our own (which are done outside faith and thus displeasing to God), but faithful cooperation with Christ (i.e. good works) is necessary our whole life after, and it is after that our good works become, not just pleasing, but necessary to God for justification, as a continual reaffirmation of the faith we placed in him when we were first justified.

So there you go. That’s my essay.

OSAS really goes back to predestination with you, I think, PEPCIS. In my reading of the Bible I see that there are actions God could not have directly ordained - there must be another cause besides God, or we make God corrupt. I also see that God works through us in interesting ways, and the intersection between his will and our will is perhaps an academic matter more than anything else.

 

[Carlan]

H

Ok, I’m back to consider some more of that article. Here is another quote:

[SIGN]“Sometimes Fundamentalists portray Catholics as if they must every moment be in terror of losing their salvation since Catholics recognize that it is possible to lose salvation through mortal sin. Fundamentalists then hold out the idea that, rather than living every moment in terror, they can have a calm, assured knowledge that they will, in fact, be saved, and that nothing will ever be able to change this fact.”[/SIGN]

Here is the problem with this paragraph: Yes, sometimes Fundamentalists/Protestants do portray salvation as if OSAS. But it is important to remember that although Catholics get SOME of their doctrine concerning salvation correct, it does not mean that they get ALL of it correct. The same goes for Protestants.

In this particular instance, the place where both some Protestants and some Catholics get it wrong is in not realizing that some people make false professions concerning Christ. This is why Jesus says that “many will come to me in that day and say, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matt 7:22-23)

We may bicker whether those people have “assurance” of salvation, but the real concern is whether or not they were ever saved.

Notice that Jesus goes on to say that,

[SIGN]"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."[/SIGN]

This explanation by Christ is important, because it shows that there are people who DID those sayings that He commanded, yet they still did not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Salvation has NOTHING to do with works. Faith does.

The difficulty in understanding this subtle difference is found in the fact that even the devils believe (have faith), yet they tremble. (James 2:19) Obviously, we know that the devils do not get entrance into the kingdom of heaven, so what more is required besides faith and works? That is the question that most Catholics and Protestants cannot answer.

Hello Pepcis, I see the discussion is still on, same ole, same ole . how about if I try to answer your last question,realizing that I am not in the same league as you champion dart throwers

Read Matt(16.24-27)Tho’ I know you have, forward and back,This quote from Jesus must be

remembered about what it takes to be a disciple, He does’nt emphasize 'Faith alone though

faith is certainly presumed and he does not emphasi ze ‘Faith and works’ though again works

are clearly mentioned, what he requires are hearts changed and surrendered and submissive

to the will of God . So I can see and understand that if Protestants were to pray and ponder

Matt 16.24-27)they would not be so troubled about faith and works, OSAS, and other such. I’ll

say again, Jesus requires us to have changed , surrendered and submissive hearts can’t get much clearer than that I’d say.Carlan

Quote St Augustine: If you believe what you like in the Gospels and reject what you don’t like ,it is not the Gospel you believe but yourself.:yup:

 

[Carlan]

PEPCIS;5483336:

Pepcis,
I would agree with you that God is the source of all good and that the goodness of works is measured by intent. Afterall, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that those that fast, pray or give alms for public acclaim have already recieved their reward and will get no recompense with God. But I will disagree with you on one account. People do have the choice between good and evil. God will reward those that do good works out of love and will condemn those that fail to do those works of love. Have you never read Matthew 25: 31-46?

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
36 naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
37 Then the righteous will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
38 When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
39 When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
40 And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
43 a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
44 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
45 He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
46 And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

OH, thank you Paul, lt isn’t so easy is it Pepcis, Dear God in heaven give us the grace to persevere

 

[TheWhoFreak]

As I said above, there is no such thing as a will that is free. It is an illusion that man created because he believes he is master of his own destiny. Yet it is clear that millions and billions of those who have said that they are masters of their own destiny are on their way to hell. So much for being “master” of your destiny.

You say that man is not the master of his own destiny. Using this logic, you would be saying that it was God’s will for Hitler to do what he did. God has a plan for us, but He doesn’t force it on us. We have to be free to accept Him.

You really have to realign your thinking on this point. God controlls so many events in our lives. How many times have you come through a close scrape with death, or accident, or some other event, and you looked back and attributed your safety to God’s provident hand in your life?

There are stories of men and women who tried to get to work at the World Trade Center on 911, but they could not because some “emergency” came up, or their transportation crapped out on them, or some other event came into their lives preventing them from going to work. Nearly ALL of these people state that they believe God intervened in their lives. Not all of these people are Christian, yet they clearly felt God’s hand controlling events in such a way as to keep them from harm that day.

If God could do such a minor thing as this, do you suppose He could also bring about the salvation of the elect?

I see a problem. You are describing EVENTS that people are involved in, not the choices they make. If anything you just backed up my point that God can control our circumstances, but never our choices.

Here’s the sad part: if left to his own free will, man would NEVER choose God. Paul tells us that to those men who are perishing, that the message of the gospel is nothing but foolishness to them. (1 Corinthians 1:18) Jesus tells us that everyone stands before God “condemned already”. (John 3:18)

So, by extension, man is born completely evil, because nothing that doesn’t have Christ can be good, and all good things come from God. That’s what your statement implies. I believe that we are born as sinful people, but as I’ve already shown, non-believers are readily capable of doing good (The difference between us and them is that we have a reason to do good, they don’t). Case in point, Lance Armstrong, an agnostic, owns his own charity! He doesn’t have Christ, but he’s doing good. Hmmmm

Suppose my son wants to go outside to play, but I see that he is holding his privates because he needs to go to the bathroom. Of course, my son has “free” will, and I could allow him to go outside and play, but because I am his father, and I recognize that the BEST thing for him at that moment would be to get him to the bathroom, I will FORCE him to go to pee first!

So God forces us to do the best things? I doubt that many of the people in prison are there because God makes them do whats best for them. Using your analogy, I would bet that your son knew that using the toilet was best as well (you say he was doing the potty dance, so I’m sure that he was aware of his need to pee). However, oftentimes the way that God wants us to go sounds so stupid or weird that we write it off as a silly daydream or thought. Or our pride gets the better of us and we think we know what’s best for ourselves. I ask you, how often do you choose God out of every 100 choices (where applicable)? If you’re anything like me you’d only choose God about 1/2 the time. Would you say that not choosing God would be the best thing for us, as known by God?

Or, suppose that I am holding my son’s hand as we walk along the street. He continually pulls against my hand, wanting to dart here and there, but I am concerned for his safety, so I will continue to hold his hand and guide him.

The fact of you holding his hand and restraining him proves my earlier point. You are controlling the circumstances, not his choice. His will is still to run around, but the circumstances prevent him from doing so.

In both cases, I am not doing damage to his precious will, but guiding it in such a way as he will be most happy. God does the same thing to us, the elect. He guides us and protects us from ourselves and our actions. Yet because He guides the elect, we can be assured that their salvation is complete.

Again, you are unwittingly backing up my point. You said that God protects and guides us. I completely agree. You would say that he guides our choices, but I say that he guides our circumstances, leaving us options of how to react in the circumstances He chose for us.

I have no problem with this, because we are talking about Jesus, who is God. We aren’t talking about men. God’s will is completely free, and so His human side must have been completely free as well.

And yet you say we are not completely free. If Jesus was fully man, and he had a free will, why would we not have a free will? After all we’re completely human as well. The difference between Christ and us is that He was part of the Triune God and we aren’t. So knowing that, Christ’s choices in free will would have been perfectly in line with God’s will. We don’t have that protection, at least to that extent.

 

[TheWhoFreak]

I’ll be gone for a weekend, all. Just letting you know.

 

[BirdandBee]

[SIGN]"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it."[/SIGN]

This explanation by Christ is important, because it shows that there are people who DID those sayings that He commanded, yet they still did not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Salvation has NOTHING to do with works. Faith does.

I assume you get this from both men building houses, which I think is taking the metaphor way too literally, but even so, it still applies to the Catholic view of justification.

The man who builds his house on rock has faith in Christ and does the will of Christ.

The man who builds his house on sand may build his house on his works, which means it will be swept away. He may build it on intellectual assent, which is no good either. Neither really constitute building ones house on Christ, because Christ requires more than intellectual assent or belief in, say, John 3:16. He requires that you walk in the works God has prepared for you.

The difficulty in understanding this subtle difference is found in the fact that even the devils believe (have faith), yet they tremble. (James 2:19)

This isn’t a very good definition of faith, and anyway, I think when Paul, for one, talks about faith, he is usually talking about faithfulness. The devils neither have faith, properly understood, nor are they faithful. Intellectual assent is nothing to God.

Also, I posted an essay on this very subject. It is, of course, recommended reading.

Obviously, we know that the devils do not get entrance into the kingdom of heaven, so what more is required besides faith and works? That is the question that most Catholics and Protestants cannot answer.

It’s not unanswerable unless you make the assumption that the devils have faith the way we are supposed to have faith.

Do you think faith is intellectual belief? Really? I’m pretty sure you don’t want to say this.

 

[Carlan]

H

Hello Pepcis, I see the discussion is still on, same ole, same ole . how about if I try to answer your last question,realizing that I am not in the same league as you champion dart throwers

Read Matt(16.24-27)Tho’ I know you have, forward and back,This quote from Jesus must be

remembered about what it takes to be a disciple, He does’nt emphasize 'Faith alone though

faith is certainly presumed and he does not emphasi ze ‘Faith and works’ though again works

are clearly mentioned, what he requires are hearts changed and surrendered and submissive

to the will of God . So I can see and understand that if Protestants were to pray and ponder

Matt 16.24-27)they would not be so troubled about faith and works, OSAS, and other such. I’ll

say again, Jesus requires us to have changed , surrendered and submissive hearts can’t get much clearer than that I’d say.Carlan

Quote St Augustine: If you believe what you like in the Gospels and reject what you don’t like ,it is not the Gospel you believe but yourself.:yup:

---

********Here again, just to say, or rather, ask you to read what Jesus says to us all in Matthew. In it Jesus is trying to get us to understand that we are to have hearts

surrendered to the Father as the foundation for our ‘Faith and works’- for apart from changed hearts both faith alone or faith and works together are powerless to bring us to the Father.:shamrock2:

Quote St Augustine: If you believe what you like in the Gospels and reject what you don’t like ,it is not the Gospel you believe but yourself.:yup:

---

 

[tqualey]

Hi, WmScott,

Excellent response

I especially liked that last paragraph in the link you provided:
**
“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”**

God bless,

Some food for thought, taken from the library here at catholic.com

Please do not gloss over this, I challenge you to read it in its entrity so that you may gain a more proper view of what the Catholic Church teaches. LINK

Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, “He who endures to the end will be saved” (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.
Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an “absolute” assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: “See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off” (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).

The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord” shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)."

Philippians 2:12 says, “Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out.

 

[paul_c]

I was reading John 15 a couple of days ago and it struck me how clear it is in condemning OSAS: Here it is:
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vine grower.
2 He takes away every branch in me that does not bear fruit, and everyone that does he prunes so that it bears more fruit.
3 You are already pruned because of the word that I spoke to you.
4 Remain in me, as I remain in you. Just as a branch cannot bear fruit on its own unless it remains on the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me and I in him will bear much fruit, because without me you can do nothing.
6 Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned.
7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.
8 By this is my Father glorified, that you bear much fruit and become my disciples.
9 As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love.
10 If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.
11 "I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and your joy may be complete.
12 This is my commandment: love one another as I love you.
13 No one has greater love than this, to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.
14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.
15 I no longer call you slaves, because a slave does not know what his master is doing. I have called you friends, because I have told you everything I have heard from my Father.
16 It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you.
17 This I command you: love one another.
18 "If the world hates you, realize that it hated me first.
19 If you belonged to the world, the world would love its own; but because you do not belong to the world, and I have chosen you out of the world, the world hates you.
20 Remember the word I spoke to you, ‘No slave is greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will also keep yours.
21 And they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.
23 Whoever hates me also hates my Father.
24 If I had not done works among them that no one else ever did, they would not have sin; but as it is, they have seen and hated both me and my Father.
25 But in order that the word written in their law might be fulfilled, ‘They hated me without cause.’
26 "When the Advocate comes whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth that proceeds from the Father, he will testify to me.
27 And you also testify, because you have been with me from the beginning.

Notice the areas I have set out in Red. . Note, they say remain in him,clearly stating that those to whom he is addressing we part of the vine. And they say that don’t remain in him, will be burned. In verse 10, he says that to remain in him, you must keep the commandments. and in verses 12 and 17, he commands the reader to love one another,

If we read Matthew 22: 36-40 we realize that to love is to carry out the commandments:
36 “Teacher,which commandment in the law is the greatest?”
37 He said to him, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
39 The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments

 

[wmscott]

Hi, WmScott,

Excellent response

I especially liked that last paragraph in the link you provided:
**
“As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”**

God bless,

Thanks Tom, sorry it has taken so long to get back to you, busy weekend. I remember back in my Southern Baptist days believing in the OSAS scenario. It felt good for a time but as I stumbled and sinned, being the imperfect creature that I am, coupled with sitting in church and the preacher shouting that we are going to hell because we are sinners, something just did not add up. I think that this was the beginning of my journey into that spiritual wasteland that I lived in for several years. As I have stated in other posts, it took a good Catholic girl to turn me around and bring me back to God and the fullness of truth. You have to love them Catholic girls. Moreover, who said that women do not have a place in the Church? What more righteous act can there be than to save a soul and bring someone back to God.

 

[PEPCIS]

If you believe in the primacy of love for salvation, then OSAS is impossible because true love can never cease. Without a one time defining event, there can be no OSAS

Hi Paul. Sorry it took so long to reply.

I’ve heard references to “Love” as being supreme, and to be honest with you, I’m not sure how this even effects the understanding of OSAS. I’m inclined to believe that this is a misplaced argument.

Love is intimately linked with salvation, and of the three gifts from God (faith, hope, and love), love is supreme above all others. There is no argument against OSAS because of this fact.

Indeed, without love, faith would never be extended as a gift to man, and therefore no salvation would be possible. God commended His love toward us, in that while we were still dead in our sins, Christ died for us. How incredible is His love!!

Hope you’re having a good day!

 

[MarcoPolo]

Indeed, without love, faith would never be extended as a gift to man, and therefore no salvation would be possible. God commended His love toward us, in that while we were still dead in our sins, Christ died for us. How incredible is His love!!

How do Baptists understand the use of the term “Book of Life” throughout Scripture? If someone’s name gets into it, he’s forever saved, correct?

 

[PEPCIS]

Pepcis,
The bible clearly teaches free will. It is all about the choices we have in life and the ramification of those choices.

Very good, then where does it show free will? Please, don’t show us the will being exercised because of an outside force by man. Show specific instances where man is not influenced by any outside force to choose evil over good.

paul:

Why would we be told [these things], if in fact, everything was predestined?

I don’t believe ALL things are predetermined. That’s fatalism. We are commanded to do things by God because we have been freed to live and serve Him. You can command the unsaved to live for God, but they will not do it. Indeed, they CANNOT do it, nor do they want to.

paul:

The fact is, God gave all of us many gifts. He gave us life. He gave us free will.

You are right, God gave us many gifts, but you have to prove that He gave us “free” will. He gave us a will, and He gave us life. Our lives and wills are to serve Him. That means it is NOT free.

paul:

He is fully capable of carrying out his plan while allowing us to have free will.

That is not even in question. But, the Bible clearly tells us that our wills are in bondage to Satan. They are NOT free.

 

[PEPCIS]

Pepcis,
I would agree with you that God is the source of all good and that the goodness of works is measured by intent. Afterall, in the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that those that fast, pray or give alms for public acclaim have already recieved their reward and will get no recompense with God. But I will disagree with you on one account. People do have the choice between good and evil. God will reward those that do good works out of love and will condemn those that fail to do those works of love. Have you never read Matthew 25: 31-46?

Hi again, Paul

Yes, I agree with you that God will reward those that do good works. But this is directed to the believer. God only has one “reward” for those who are not believers, and that is hell. God has another reward for believers, and that is the kingdom of God. Once we are there, we will be judged according to the other things that we have done.

 

[wmscott]

Hi again, Paul

Yes, I agree with you that God will reward those that do good works. But this is directed to the believer. God only has one “reward” for those who are not believers, and that is hell. God has another reward for believers, and that is the kingdom of God. Once we are there, we will be judged according to the other things that we have done.

Hi PEPCIS, I was wondering if you had read post 138 and had time to digest my thoughts. Looking forward to hearing from you.