Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[ParkerD]

For a man to have been born blind…and the FACT he was born blind was an indication that he had sinned…when did he sin? The questioners were understanding that the man born blind had sinned in some way and his blindness was punishment for that sin…unless one had the capacity ot sin in the pre-existence…what sense did the question make in the first place?

Publisher,

Thank you tremendously for this explanation and your earlier comments.

 

[Elijah121]

Also found another Bible reference: Ephesians 1: 4 (and i think verse 5)
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestined us unto the adoption of the children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

 

[Elijah121]

New American Bible. I think there are better translations out there, but it is the official Catholic translation used in the USA. I hope they choose something else soon; I hear that they are working on it. Nevertheless, I believe “sons of God” doesn’t vary in translation.

oh well we use the King James Version of the Bible with the JST version as well but i think “sons of God” literally means sons of God.

 

[Publisher]

Publisher,

Thank you tremendously for this explanation and your earlier comments.

You are welcome friend.

 

[SteveVH]

For a man to have been born blind…and the FACT he was born blind was an indication that he had sinned…when did he sin? The questioners were understanding that the man born blind had sinned in some way and his blindness was punishment for that sin…unless one had the capacity ot sin in the pre-existence…what sense did the question make in the first place?

The Jews believed that one could be “born in sin” due to the sins of their parents, and that they would suffer from those sins.

"His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2) Jesus immediately explained that neither he nor his parents had sinned, but that this was done for the glory of God. The belief was in error.

 

[Publisher]

The Jews believed that one could be “born in sin” due to the sins of their parents, and that they would suffer from those sins.

"His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” (John 9:2) Jesus explained that neither he nor his parents had sinned, but that this was done for the glory of God.

That is correct…but the fact the Jews who asked the question understood that the answer could have been either way…“He was born blind because of his parents sins.” OR “He was born blind because of his onw sins.”…which could not have been committed unless before he was born.

The passage “implies” that the Jews who asked the question had some understanding of the possibility of a pre-mortal existence…or else the questions…“THIS MAN or his parents”…really has no “bite” to it.

 

[SteveVH]

That is correct…but the fact the Jews who asked the question understood that the answer could have been either way…“He was born blind because of his parents sins.” OR “He was born blind because of his onw sins.”…which could not have been committed unless before he was born.

The passage “implies” that the Jews who asked the question had some understanding of the possibility of a pre-mortal existence…or else the questions…“THIS MAN or his parents”…really has no “bite” to it.

Point taken.

 

[Anna_Scott]

It seems that at the heart of the differences between many Mormon and traditional Christian beliefs lies the doctrine of pre-mortal existence. . .

My question is this. Where in biblical Scripture is there any evidence of this? The best I can find are verses such as “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer 1:5). It does not appear though, that this conveyed the meaning held by the LDS Church to anyone but the LDS, rather it is interpreted by most Christians to mean that God is omniscient, or “all knowing”.

Since this doctrine is so basic to Mormon theology, and so oppossed to traditional Christian theology, I thought it was worth discussion.

Steve,
Historically, the idea of a pre-existent soul comes from Greek Philosophy.

As you know (and much better than I), the CCC deals directly with Adam and Christ–as the first Adam and the last Adam. Christ, the last Adam is the lifegiving Spirit, who created the first Adam. There really is no room for pre-existence in the creation account.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
359 "In reality it is only in the mystery of the Word made flesh that the mystery of man truly becomes clear."224

St. Paul tells us that the human race takes its origin from two men: Adam and Christ. . . **The first man, Adam, he says, became a living soul, the last Adam a life-giving spirit.** The first Adam was made by the last Adam, from whom he also received his soul, to give him life. . . The second Adam stamped his image on the first Adam when he created him. That is why he took on himself the role and the name of the first Adam, in order that he might not lose what he had made in his own image. The first Adam, the last Adam: the first had a beginning, the last knows no end. The last Adam is indeed the first; as he himself says: "I am the first and the last."225

1. GS 22 § 1.
2. St. Peter Chrysologus, Sermo 117: PL 52,520-521.
   Link: catholiccrossreference.com/bible/catechism.cgi?query=359&section=Prologue&mode=cccnum&how=exact

I think one has to do a lot of finagling (as we say in Texas ) to interpret Holy Scripture in a way that supports pre-existence of the soul.

Very interesting question, Steve.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

Well, then you are certainly free not to discuss it.

It was not to despise you.
Just a figure of rethoric. Of course I am ready to discuss.
What I meant is that it is so strong a fact that is like pushing an elephant.

 

[Pfaffenhoffen]

It seems that at the heart of the differences between many Mormon and traditional Christian beliefs lies the doctrine of pre-mortal existence; the idea that we have co-existed from eternity with God as eternal “intelligences” who then become “spirit children” of God and then came to earth to take on human flesh in order to begin the process of exaltation for the final purpose of becoming gods ourselves. Within this doctrine is also the belief that even inert matter is co-eternal with God, having no beginning. This doctrine is so basic to Mormon thought that it governs nearly all of its subsequent theology and is the cause, in my opinion, of much misunderstanding. If I have mis-stated anything here I am open to correction.

My question is this. Where in biblical Scripture is there any evidence of this? The best I can find are verses such as “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; and before you came forth out of the womb I sanctified you, and I ordained you a prophet unto the nations.” (Jer 1:5). It does not appear though, that this conveyed the meaning held by the LDS Church to anyone but the LDS, rather it is interpreted by most Christians to mean that God is omniscient, or “all knowing”.

Since this doctrine is so basic to Mormon theology, and so oppossed to traditional Christian theology, I thought it was worth discussion.

Now I am giving just the opposite answer I gave before.
We existed before birth.
where ?
In the hand fo God, as a poet said, from his RGHT (the stronger) hand.
We came from the hand of God.
So we pre-existed…

 

[sallybutler]

There is actually another scripture reference in the Bible, look for Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when i laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?or who hath stretched the line upon it? whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I thought the point of this chapter of Job was to point out that Job did not exist when God created the earth.

 

[GEddie]

WE are not spirits, we are human beings.

As such, we could not have existed in time before our bodies formed, as we do not have a body; we are a body.

We will go into Eternity, but we were not there before coming into time. Only God can make that transition, as our LORD did.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Anna_Scott]

I thought the point of this chapter of Job was to point out that Job did not exist when God created the earth.

I think you are right.

Anna

 

[Telstar]

There is actually another scripture reference in the Bible, look for Job 38:4-7
Where wast thou when i laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest?or who hath stretched the line upon it? whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I thought the point of this chapter of Job was to point out that Job did not exist when God created the earth.

Exactly! See what a little twisting of Bible interpretation can do to ‘prove’ an unprovable point? But, that never hinders some people from pulling ‘phrases’ out of context to make an entire passage mean something totally different than it was intended to mean. That entire chapter from Job, was God Gibbs-smacking him. It was meant as a lesson to him that no one but God was present when He created the universe out of nothing, and only He has the power to do any of those things that were mentioned. Therefore, Job has no right whatsoever to question why God does anything, because only God knows the real purpose of anything that He does.

 

[SteveVH]

Steve,
Historically, the idea of a pre-existent soul comes from Greek Philosophy.

Yes, I think it originated with Plato.

As you know (and much better than I), the CCC deals directly with Adam and Christ–as the first Adam and the last Adam. Christ, the last Adam is the lifegiving Spirit, who created the first Adam. There really is no room for pre-existence in the creation account.

This has always been my understanding. Not to mention the creation account in Genesis. It would seem, that if this belief was actually ever held by the Jews, that the account of the creation of man would have incorporated this point. I have also been taught that any reference or implication of preexistence in Jewish thought was actually referring to predestination or something being foreordained and not actually preexisting.

I think one has to do a lot of finagling (as we say in Texas ) to interpret Holy Scripture in a way that supports pre-existence of the soul.

 

[SteveVH]

Exactly! See what a little twisting of Bible interpretation can do to ‘prove’ an unprovable point? But, that never hinders some people from pulling ‘phrases’ out of context to make an entire passage mean something totally different than it was intended to mean. That entire chapter from Job, was God Gibbs-smacking him. It was meant as a lesson to him that no one but God was present when He created the universe out of nothing, and only He has the power to do any of those things that were mentioned. Therefore, Job has no right whatsoever to question why God does anything, because only God knows the real purpose of anything that He does.

I would agree completley, but what I believe the come-back will be is this: That we were not human in our preexistence, we were “intelligences” who were “organized” or “procreated” by God into “spirit children” who then chose to come to earth and become human. I would be interested in a Mormon’s viewpoint here.

But you are correct. The entire point of the passage in Job is to show that God is the Creator of all things and that nothing and no one was around prior to his act of creation:

“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7)

The Mormon answer to these questions would have to be "I was floating around as an “intelligence”, or, "I was with you as your “spirit child”, which would then contradict the very point of the passage which is that we were not there.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . .Gibbs-smacking him. . .

NCIS fan? Me too.

Anna

 

[bz5]

For a man to have been born blind…and the FACT he was born blind was an indication that he had sinned…when did he sin? The questioners were understanding that the man born blind had sinned in some way and his blindness was punishment for that sin…unless one had the capacity ot sin in the pre-existence…what sense did the question make in the first place?

Didn’t they believe one could be suffering for the sins of one’s parents? What Jew believes in a pre-existence?

 

[Telstar]

I would agree completley, but what I believe the come-back will be is this: That we were not human in our preexistence, we were “intelligences” who were “organized” or “procreated” by God into “spirit children” who then chose to come to earth and become human. I would be interested in a Mormon’s viewpoint here.

But you are correct. The entire point of the passage in Job is to show that God is the Creator of all things and that nothing and no one was around prior to his act of creation:

“Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the corner stone thereof; when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?” (Job 38:4-7)

The Mormon answer to these questions would have to be "I was floating around as an “intelligence”, or, "I was with you as your “spirit child”, which would then contradict the very point of the passage which is that we were not there.

Sadly, you are correct, sir. But, when someone stakes their entire existence on believing in doctrines that they want to believe so badly, because they have a much more appealing ending for them than those that they’ve always been taught are wrong (that they can’t even begin to understand because their views are so diametrically opposed to them), that they’ll just put on their blindfolds, put in their earplugs and turn up the volume on the ‘white noise’ to drown out any alarm bells that might ring, and wake them up from such a sweet dream. Considering that their church’s beliefs oppose the Catholic Church so strongly, I’m afraid that might just leave them in a very bad situation in the end. It really is a very sad situation, indeed.

 

[Telstar]

NCIS fan? Me too.

Anna

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