F
freddo
Guest
Slight hijack, and I hope I didn’t miss it as I read through the thread, but…where is that in 1 Corinthians?
- Status
T
Telstar
Guest
*1 Corinthians 15:[33] Be not seduced: Evil communications corrupt good manners. [34] Awake, ye just, and sin not. For some have not the knowledge of God, I speak it to your shame. [35] But some man will say: How do the dead rise again? or with what manner of body shall they come?
[36] Senseless man, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die first. [37] And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not the body that shall be; but bare grain, as of wheat, or of some of the rest. [38] But God giveth it a body as he will: and to every seed its proper body. [39] All flesh is not the same flesh: but one is the flesh of men, another of beasts, another of birds, another of fishes. [40] And there are bodies celestial, and bodies terrestrial: but, one is the glory of the celestial, and another of the terrestrial.
[41] One is the glory of the sun, another the glory of the moon, and another the glory of the stars. For star differeth from star in glory. [42] So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it shall rise in incorruption. [43] It is sown in dishonour, it shall rise in glory. It is sown in weakness, it shall rise in power. [44] It is sown a natural body, it shall rise a spiritual body. If there be a natural body, there is also a spiritual body, as it is written: [45] The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit.
[46] Yet that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; afterwards that which is spiritual. [47] The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49] Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.
[51] Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall all indeed rise again: but we shall not all be changed. [52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall rise again incorruptible: and we shall be changed. [53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption; and this mortal must put on immortality. [54] And when this mortal hath put on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory. [55] O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting? *
Paul refers to our natural progression from our creation as a human being, living on this earth, to our spiritual rebirth that will come in the resurrection. He makes a distinction between our ‘natural body’ in this mortal world, and our ‘spiritual body’ (glorified) that we’ll have after the resurrection. We are first born into the flesh, then into the spirit. The body of the first Adam is the example of our earthly bodies that all begin in the same way that his did. The second Adam (Jesus) is the example of what we will become when we are ‘reborn in the spirit’ and take on our glorified flesh to become immortal, in the resurrection, the same way that Jesus did when He rose from the dead. There is no mention whatsoever that we existed in any form before God gave us our earthly bodies, just as Adam didn’t exist before God created him and breathed life into him.
P
Pepband_Mom
Guest
LDS use Jer 1:5 but in God’s mind we existed like a idea, an “ideal” not “real” existence. Jeremiah and us as well has an eternal "ideal’ existence in the mind of God, not an actual “real” existence.
Romans 4:17 “…the God who restores the dead to life and calls into being those things which had not been”.
Straightforward - calls into being
Eccl 12:7 “then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it…”
Dust meaning the human body that returns back to its primary elements, ashes to ashes, dust to dust; to dust we shall return. Nothing here about the “spirit” or soul
Hebrews 12:9 “Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?”
Bodies need cooperation with God to create - Mom & Dad
Souls are His domain alone.
He made them.
re: revelation
God has “revealed” many things to me in my life, He discloses, He prods me. He helps me uncover things. He opens my eyes. He is my Rock. As I get older, I look back & see His hand in my life all over the place.
He lavishes me with His GRACE through His Sacraments but I do not claim “PROPHET STATUS” because of what he “reveals” to me.
There are “revelations”(private) and then there are “Revelations”(Public -ended long ago)
Romans 4:17 “…the God who restores the dead to life and calls into being those things which had not been”.
Straightforward - calls into being
Eccl 12:7 “then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it…”
Dust meaning the human body that returns back to its primary elements, ashes to ashes, dust to dust; to dust we shall return. Nothing here about the “spirit” or soul
Hebrews 12:9 “Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?”
Bodies need cooperation with God to create - Mom & Dad
Souls are His domain alone.
He made them.
re: revelation
God has “revealed” many things to me in my life, He discloses, He prods me. He helps me uncover things. He opens my eyes. He is my Rock. As I get older, I look back & see His hand in my life all over the place.
He lavishes me with His GRACE through His Sacraments but I do not claim “PROPHET STATUS” because of what he “reveals” to me.
There are “revelations”(private) and then there are “Revelations”(Public -ended long ago)
A
Anna_Scott
Guest
Very cool.
Sometimes humor is good in the midst of serious discussion. Please forgive us Steve. 
Anna
T
Telstar
Guest
I agree. Sometimes things just seem to get way too heavy and serious. I realize there’s a time and place for humor, but, once in a while you just need to let it rip. If God didn’t have a sense of humor, why would He give us one?Very cool.
Anna
T
Tony888
Guest
Thanks telstar, To me it is clear this scripture is referring to the growth of our spiritual nature as we work to become ‘christ-like.’ I don’t believe it is discussing the creation of our soul. I think we both agree the soul exists in the body at the moment of conception, thus it exists as the earthly body develops (not after). Even the most evil of people, who do not develop their heavenly nature have a soul from the moment of coneception.
P
Publisher
Guest
I don’t anyone claims the Jews in Jesus day believed in a pre-existence as a fully formed belief for all Jews…no more than they believed in a “purgatory” based on the Macabees passage as a fully formed belief system
During the time the NT was written…and perhaps a few decades before Jesus was born, the Jewish nation was going through some theological changes…the various sects within Judaism bears this out.
If you’re lookng for a fully formed thought…it’s not there…that it existed is born out in the following centuries of Christian thought…as Oreigin put forth the possibility of the pre-exstence of the soul…such beliefs did not rise out of a vacuum…that the first and secnd centuries BCE and CE brought about many different religious concepts and new religions is fact.
Pre-existence was not unknown as a belief…just not fully formed nor widely believed…that those Jews that asked Jesus the question about who’s sin…left it open…unless the man…in their mind…had the capacity to sin before he was born is found in their questions.
During the times of the prophets, Israel’s beliefs changed…in the early writings of the OT the idea of an entire nation being punished for a wicked few is prevelant…with the rise of the prophets after the Exile…the understanding that men are punished for their own sins and not those of their rulers or parents took shape. Look at Ezekiel and some of the other prophets to discover what they now preached…we are punished for our own sins…not the sins of others.
S
SteveVH
Guest
What an excellent quote! One aspect that I see in all of this is a completely different idea of who God is; the Christian view being that God can and does bring into existence everything that exists, from nothing, simply by a thought; by his will. He “calls into being”, he does not simply"organize" existing material as one would use wood to “create” a house or paint to “create” a painting. This is why I included in my original post the subject of omnipotence. The Mormons to which I have spoken tell me they believe that God is omnipotent, yet God cannot be omnipotent if he is dependent upon any other thing or being. To believe that God was dependent upon anything in order to create is an incredibly limited and erroneous view of who God truly is; omnipotent; omniscient, omnipresent and any other “omni” one can conceive. In my opinion, they have truly created God in man’s image; a being who is subject to and limited by the laws of the world in which he finds himself.
S
SteveVH
Guest
Hey, I’m always up for a good laugh and I certainly had one when I read this.Very cool.
Anna
S
SteveVH
Guest
Paul’s words directly refute your interpretation. We must receive the spirit of Christ, the second man, from heaven, in order to bear the image of the heavenly, otherwise we remain like the first man; earthly. Our soul became devoid of divine life, due to original sin. Through baptism our soul is infused with supernatural (above-nature) life; original sin is washed away and we bear the image of the divine.
Read Paul’s words again:
“The first man was of the earth, earthly: the second man, from heaven, heavenly. [48] Such as is the earthly, such also are the earthly: and such as is the heavenly, such also are they that are heavenly. [49] Therefore as we have borne the image of the earthly, let us bear also the image of the heavenly. [50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot possess the kingdom of God: neither shall corruption possess incorruption.”
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Tony888
Guest
No steve, it seems explicit that this text is referencing the second man as the transformative power of receiving the Holy Spirit with baptism. For it is only through Christ and the guidance of the Holy Spirit that we can possess the kingdom of God
Paul uses the heavenly ‘second man’ as a metaphore for salvation. He is not waxing on about when the soul is created.
S
SteveVH
Guest
The first man is Adam (earthly). The second man is Christ (heavenly), not a metaphore. Our soul, once created, will exist for eternity, either in heaven or in hell.
S
SteveVH
Guest
The first man is Adam. The second man (the second Adam) is Jesus Christ. The first is earthly (made from dust), the second heavenly (came from heaven).
P
Pepband_Mom
Guest
Re quote about 1st Man 2nd Man
Adam is known to be as the First man/adam; responsible for the Fall; the Sin of Adam
Jesus is the Second Adam who redeems us from the Fall, the Sin of Adam
To further expand on this issue Adam check this out with Eve:
Eve is the 1st Woman; Latin for Eve is EVA
Mary the 2nd Woman; according to the Early Church Father ____________, Mary UNTIES or reverses the knot that Eve tied. Jesus says to her at the wedding at CANA, “Woman…”
REVERSE EVA & you get AVE
which is Latin for HAIL, as in Hail full of Grace by St. Gabriel; KAIRE = HAIL, Kecharitomene = FULL of Grace; the only place in the Bible where a WOMAN is acclaimed with a ROYAL TITLE as Hail is usually reserved for King, Governors, etc.
Contrasted With St. Stephen at time of martyrdom is FULL of Grace Pleres Charitas but never before in his life only at time of stoning…
Mary is the Queen Mother, the Gebbirah of the NT, MOTHER OF THE KING, Jesus the second Adam, the Son of Man and the Son of God
Bonus Question:
Mary’s prophecy “All generations shall call me blessed”. If a sect, cult, denom fails to proclaim Mary as Blessed, where does that leave them? Sounds like way out of the boundaries of the original group Mary knew would hold her up for WHO SHE IS
Adam is known to be as the First man/adam; responsible for the Fall; the Sin of Adam
Jesus is the Second Adam who redeems us from the Fall, the Sin of Adam
To further expand on this issue Adam check this out with Eve:
Eve is the 1st Woman; Latin for Eve is EVA
Mary the 2nd Woman; according to the Early Church Father ____________, Mary UNTIES or reverses the knot that Eve tied. Jesus says to her at the wedding at CANA, “Woman…”
REVERSE EVA & you get AVE
which is Latin for HAIL, as in Hail full of Grace by St. Gabriel; KAIRE = HAIL, Kecharitomene = FULL of Grace; the only place in the Bible where a WOMAN is acclaimed with a ROYAL TITLE as Hail is usually reserved for King, Governors, etc.
Contrasted With St. Stephen at time of martyrdom is FULL of Grace Pleres Charitas but never before in his life only at time of stoning…
Mary is the Queen Mother, the Gebbirah of the NT, MOTHER OF THE KING, Jesus the second Adam, the Son of Man and the Son of God
Bonus Question:
Mary’s prophecy “All generations shall call me blessed”. If a sect, cult, denom fails to proclaim Mary as Blessed, where does that leave them? Sounds like way out of the boundaries of the original group Mary knew would hold her up for WHO SHE IS
E
Elijah121
Guest
Rom. 8:29–“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image
of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
To foreknow means to know before, and in order to foreordain which would happen before this
life, there would have to be a pre-existence.
Eph. 1:4-5-- “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we
should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the
adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
We were chosen before the foundation of the world, just as Christ was “Slain before the
foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), so were we chosen and ordained to do certain duties and
tasks. But some will fall and not complete it, in which God will plant another in his stead. D/C
35:18. We had to have existed in order to be chosen.
Gen. 2:5-- “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,
in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field
before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had
not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.”
If plants were created even before the earth was and every herb before the world was formed,
why didn’t God create us before?
2 Tim. 1:9–Called us with a holy calling before the world began (Foreordination see also Acts
17:26)
of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
To foreknow means to know before, and in order to foreordain which would happen before this
life, there would have to be a pre-existence.
Eph. 1:4-5-- “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we
should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the
adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,”
We were chosen before the foundation of the world, just as Christ was “Slain before the
foundation of the world” (Rev. 13:8), so were we chosen and ordained to do certain duties and
tasks. But some will fall and not complete it, in which God will plant another in his stead. D/C
35:18. We had to have existed in order to be chosen.
Gen. 2:5-- “These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created,
in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, And every plant of the field
before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had
not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.”
If plants were created even before the earth was and every herb before the world was formed,
why didn’t God create us before?
2 Tim. 1:9–Called us with a holy calling before the world began (Foreordination see also Acts
17:26)
E
Elijah121
Guest
Sam. 16:14, Psalms 51:11, and Isaiah 63:10 all testify that Prophets have spoken by the Holy
Ghost, and the Holy Ghost was upon them. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He
would not be partial for 4,000 years, then decide to reveal another member of the Godhead. The
reason why the Father would send them the Holy Ghost after the death of Christ is simply
because He was not needed. A member of the Godhead was in their presence.
Our bodies are formed from the dust of the earth, but are our spirits made from the same
materials? If they were, then they would, at death, return to the dust; but as they are not reduced
to dust, like the body, they must be formed of materials far superior to those of the earth.
John 9:2–You must look at this one closely. In verse 2 the disciples ask Our church has the answer. In the pre-existence,
we all, as spirits, lived with our Father. We grew and progressed until there came a point where
we needed bodies to progress further. A plan was presented and two different spirits in authority
came forth to be a Savior. One agreed with the Fathers plan and would follow it. The other
wanted to change it so that all the people would have to do good, eliminating the need of a
suffering Savior that would be put to death. It would have been a lot easier for satan if he was
chosen. God chose the first (Abr. 3:27-28). There was a rebellion in heaven and satan, along with
a third of the hosts of heaven were cast down to earth without bodies (Rev. 12:7-9, Isa. 14:12,
Luke 10:18) by Michael and his angels.
Our deeds in the pre-existence reflect some circumstances in this life, just as this life
reflects all circumstances in the next. Circumstances in the nest life. Rom. 9:10-14 says that
before they were born, God said “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated.” Why? Is it because
God is impartial? No. It is because of their deeds in the Pre-existence. As Bruce R. McConkie
puts it “As far as the works of this life are concerned, (neither) had earned any preferential
status…Jacob was coming into the world with greater spiritual capacity than Esau…” He goes on
to say “The House of Israel was a distinct people in the pre-existence; that is, by obedience and
devotion, certain of the spirit children of the Father earned the right to be born in the lineage of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and of being natural heirs to the blessings of the Gospel. Through the
lineage of Jacob, God sent those valiant spirits, those noble and great ones, who He knew would
be inclined to serve Him. Through Esau came those spirits of lesser valiance and devotion.
Hence, in the very nature of things, many of Jacobs seed were righteous in this life, and many of
Esaus were wicked, causing Malachi to say in the Lords name, fifteen hundred years later, that
God loved the house of Jacob and hated the house of Esau.” Mal 1:2-3 (See also Alma 13:1-5)
Back to John 9:2, some say that the Jews believed sin was passed down from father to
son, but this is not Jewish theology, Ezekiel 18:20 says that the son will not bear the iniquities of
his parents.
Gen. 2:7–This is when God “Breathed into his nostrils the breath (Hebrew= ‘Rucha’ or spirit) of
life; and man became a living soul.” God breathed the spirit into Adam. He did not create it right
then. He placed it there. It was in the pre-existence, where God took it from and put it into his
body. The spirit was brought down from heaven and after Adams life ended, it returned to Gods
presence. (See Eccl. 12:7)
Heb. 12:9, Num. 16:22, 27:16–This tells us that God is the Father of our spirits. Yet, most
Christians believe that we come into existence, both spirit and body, when we are born. It doesn’t
say God created our spirit and body, but just spirit. If we are a bodiless spirit, then our spirits
must be somewhere.
Jude 1:6–Jude, the brother of Jesus and James, is giving 3 examples of rebellion. 1st, the
children of Israel whom He delivered out of Egypt, and later killed all the original members of
the exodus, save Joshua, and Caleb, by making them wander in the wilderness for 40 years. Then
in verse 7, he speaks of the rebellion of Sodom and Gomorrha that sinned. And finally, he speaks of
the rebellion of Lucifer and his followers. After the rebellion, or sin, there had to come a
punishment, which was the loss of their first estate, and their being cast to earth. So who were the
other 2/3 of the angels that fought against satan? They were us in the pre-mortal life. 1 Cor. 6:2 says
that we shall judge the world, and the next verse says that we shall judge angels. Angels, in the
Christian point of view are perfect beings. So why should we judge them, unless we were them at
one time?
John 1:15-- “John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.”
The scholar David Waltz writes: "The phrase for He was before me (NAS for He existed before me) is not a literal translation of the Greek which reads: hoti prOtos mou En. A literal, word for word translation is: “because first of me was”. Virtually all English translations read the adjective prOtos in a sense of time, hence the “before”; however, I believe a more natural reading of the Greek is to translate prOtos as a substantive, “first/chief [one]”, and if one adopts this view the phrase would read: “because He was my first/chief [one]”. Once again, this seems to me to be the more natural, straightforward, translation; but if one follows this translation it would mean that John the Baptist was preexistent just like Jesus, and in the preexistence, Jesus was Johns superior, or Chief.
Ghost, and the Holy Ghost was upon them. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. He
would not be partial for 4,000 years, then decide to reveal another member of the Godhead. The
reason why the Father would send them the Holy Ghost after the death of Christ is simply
because He was not needed. A member of the Godhead was in their presence.
Our bodies are formed from the dust of the earth, but are our spirits made from the same
materials? If they were, then they would, at death, return to the dust; but as they are not reduced
to dust, like the body, they must be formed of materials far superior to those of the earth.
John 9:2–You must look at this one closely. In verse 2 the disciples ask Our church has the answer. In the pre-existence,
we all, as spirits, lived with our Father. We grew and progressed until there came a point where
we needed bodies to progress further. A plan was presented and two different spirits in authority
came forth to be a Savior. One agreed with the Fathers plan and would follow it. The other
wanted to change it so that all the people would have to do good, eliminating the need of a
suffering Savior that would be put to death. It would have been a lot easier for satan if he was
chosen. God chose the first (Abr. 3:27-28). There was a rebellion in heaven and satan, along with
a third of the hosts of heaven were cast down to earth without bodies (Rev. 12:7-9, Isa. 14:12,
Luke 10:18) by Michael and his angels.
Our deeds in the pre-existence reflect some circumstances in this life, just as this life
reflects all circumstances in the next. Circumstances in the nest life. Rom. 9:10-14 says that
before they were born, God said “Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated.” Why? Is it because
God is impartial? No. It is because of their deeds in the Pre-existence. As Bruce R. McConkie
puts it “As far as the works of this life are concerned, (neither) had earned any preferential
status…Jacob was coming into the world with greater spiritual capacity than Esau…” He goes on
to say “The House of Israel was a distinct people in the pre-existence; that is, by obedience and
devotion, certain of the spirit children of the Father earned the right to be born in the lineage of
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and of being natural heirs to the blessings of the Gospel. Through the
lineage of Jacob, God sent those valiant spirits, those noble and great ones, who He knew would
be inclined to serve Him. Through Esau came those spirits of lesser valiance and devotion.
Hence, in the very nature of things, many of Jacobs seed were righteous in this life, and many of
Esaus were wicked, causing Malachi to say in the Lords name, fifteen hundred years later, that
God loved the house of Jacob and hated the house of Esau.” Mal 1:2-3 (See also Alma 13:1-5)
Back to John 9:2, some say that the Jews believed sin was passed down from father to
son, but this is not Jewish theology, Ezekiel 18:20 says that the son will not bear the iniquities of
his parents.
Gen. 2:7–This is when God “Breathed into his nostrils the breath (Hebrew= ‘Rucha’ or spirit) of
life; and man became a living soul.” God breathed the spirit into Adam. He did not create it right
then. He placed it there. It was in the pre-existence, where God took it from and put it into his
body. The spirit was brought down from heaven and after Adams life ended, it returned to Gods
presence. (See Eccl. 12:7)
Heb. 12:9, Num. 16:22, 27:16–This tells us that God is the Father of our spirits. Yet, most
Christians believe that we come into existence, both spirit and body, when we are born. It doesn’t
say God created our spirit and body, but just spirit. If we are a bodiless spirit, then our spirits
must be somewhere.
Jude 1:6–Jude, the brother of Jesus and James, is giving 3 examples of rebellion. 1st, the
children of Israel whom He delivered out of Egypt, and later killed all the original members of
the exodus, save Joshua, and Caleb, by making them wander in the wilderness for 40 years. Then
in verse 7, he speaks of the rebellion of Sodom and Gomorrha that sinned. And finally, he speaks of
the rebellion of Lucifer and his followers. After the rebellion, or sin, there had to come a
punishment, which was the loss of their first estate, and their being cast to earth. So who were the
other 2/3 of the angels that fought against satan? They were us in the pre-mortal life. 1 Cor. 6:2 says
that we shall judge the world, and the next verse says that we shall judge angels. Angels, in the
Christian point of view are perfect beings. So why should we judge them, unless we were them at
one time?
John 1:15-- “John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.”
The scholar David Waltz writes: "The phrase for He was before me (NAS for He existed before me) is not a literal translation of the Greek which reads: hoti prOtos mou En. A literal, word for word translation is: “because first of me was”. Virtually all English translations read the adjective prOtos in a sense of time, hence the “before”; however, I believe a more natural reading of the Greek is to translate prOtos as a substantive, “first/chief [one]”, and if one adopts this view the phrase would read: “because He was my first/chief [one]”. Once again, this seems to me to be the more natural, straightforward, translation; but if one follows this translation it would mean that John the Baptist was preexistent just like Jesus, and in the preexistence, Jesus was Johns superior, or Chief.
K
KathleenGee
Guest
God created this world in one act of will in Christ. He is All Knowing.
Creating this world in one act of His will takes millions of years in human time.
Likewise, in His all knowing of all creation…without His will we cannot exist…yes, He knew us before we were formed. But this does not imply that we were spirit children.
It is through Christ God created the universe. This incarnation of Christ is His predestined mission. But we can not use the word ‘predestinate’ to no choice on our part…in the sense, being created in God’s image…we have intellect and free will, and our souls, of spirit come from God Himself…our creation fulfilled with the cooperation of our earthly parents.
Creating this world in one act of His will takes millions of years in human time.
Likewise, in His all knowing of all creation…without His will we cannot exist…yes, He knew us before we were formed. But this does not imply that we were spirit children.
It is through Christ God created the universe. This incarnation of Christ is His predestined mission. But we can not use the word ‘predestinate’ to no choice on our part…in the sense, being created in God’s image…we have intellect and free will, and our souls, of spirit come from God Himself…our creation fulfilled with the cooperation of our earthly parents.
R
rmcmullan
Guest
If you want to know the scriptures the LDS use for a pre-existence, take a look at
their online topical guide, under “Man, Antemortal Existence of”.
Jeremiah 1:5 was the “goto” scripture for the missionary discussions and it is listed here. For a broader look, look under the Topical Guide under Pre-existence. It also covers some of the other areas this discussion has been wandering into.
their online topical guide, under “Man, Antemortal Existence of”.
Jeremiah 1:5 was the “goto” scripture for the missionary discussions and it is listed here. For a broader look, look under the Topical Guide under Pre-existence. It also covers some of the other areas this discussion has been wandering into.
P
PaulDupre
Guest
What I see in Mormonism is a constant “man-centeredness” rather than a “God-centeredness”. It is all about what they can achieve and aspire to and what power and dominion they can possess, rather than worshipping God in humility and desiring nothing more than to be perfectly united with Him.
It is the same with LDS arguments for the pre-existence. The LDS argument basically boils down to this:
God knew us before we were born, not because God is all-knowing and all creation is a product of His infinite mind and will, but because we are also eternal and existed eternally along with Him where He could see us.
The gulf between Christianity and Mormonism is vast.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
It is the same with LDS arguments for the pre-existence. The LDS argument basically boils down to this:
God knew us before we were born, not because God is all-knowing and all creation is a product of His infinite mind and will, but because we are also eternal and existed eternally along with Him where He could see us.
The gulf between Christianity and Mormonism is vast.
Paul (formerly LDS, now happily Catholic)
K
KathleenGee
Guest
For Catholics, ours is based on grace, freely given by God Himself, each measured according to His will…
All we have to do is open our hearts to His will, His Spirit, His Word, His Eucharist…
and let His grace transform us by our ‘yes’.
Simple.
All we have to do is open our hearts to His will, His Spirit, His Word, His Eucharist…
and let His grace transform us by our ‘yes’.
Simple.
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