Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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No matter how you cook it up, either with a serving of original sin or not, without the pre-existence, you have God filling the world with souls corrupted with evil intent that, since He made, He is responsible for. Man is capable of incredible sin and depravity and God knew this would be a time of testing but to have actually Him creating souls subject to sin and depravity and then unleashing them on the innocent souls, to prey on them, is just too much for me to believe.

No, it makes much more sense to me that we are our own spirits, always have been, and this is a proving grounds that we signed up for, knowing the risks. If God created both our bodies and spirits and made them into souls, what are we even responsible for then? I don’t think this rejection of the pre-existence and free will are even compatible.
 
No matter how you cook it up, either with a serving of original sin or not, without the pre-existence, you have God filling the world with souls corrupted with evil intent that, since He made, He is responsible for. Man is capable of incredible sin and depravity and God knew this would be a time of testing but to have actually Him creating souls subject to sin and depravity and then unleashing them on the innocent souls, to prey on them, is just too much for me to believe.

No, it makes much more sense to me that we are our own spirits, always have been, and this is a proving grounds that we signed up for, knowing the risks. If God created both our bodies and spirits and made them into souls, what are we even responsible for then? I don’t think this rejection of the pre-existence and free will are even compatible.
And if there were evil “intelligences” floating around and God created spirit bodies for them and sent them here as evil human beings He is also responsible for unleashing them on the innocent souls here.
 
He’s not responsible if we agreed to it.

I think you ought to concede this point. It’s okay, you don’t have to call the Mormon missionaries and demand Mormon baptism. You can say “well this is what my church teaches and I don’t understand it all but I trust them.” That’s perfectly acceptable in a religious argument. But the pre-existence is the only way this world makes sense.
 
He’s not responsible if we agreed to it.

I think you ought to concede this point. It’s okay, you don’t have to call the Mormon missionaries and demand Mormon baptism. You can say “well this is what my church teaches and I don’t understand it all but I trust them.” That’s perfectly acceptable in a religious argument. But the pre-existence is the only way this world makes sense.
He could have left the evil intelligences where they were, since he didn’t He’s responsible for what they do here. I don’t see the pre-existence as the only way this world makes sense.
 
That is an interesting point of view, what you said about God transferring some of his Spirit to make Man. That seems okay so far as Adam is concerned, I’m not so sure about Hitler.

One of the reasons–and this is totally outside any appeal I would make to the Bible–that I like the pre-existence model is that people seem to have such strong and distinct personalities and so far as I can tell they’re born with them. Sure there are environmental influences but it seems to me that similar people in similar circumstances turn out… very differently.
So you deny genetic predispositions on personality?

And remember, God is not limited by time. Therefore he knows all.
 
Mcmullen

God is LOVE, God created in LOVE- His angels and we humans - His love is so PERFECT He wants to SHARE it - the BEATIFIC VISION is to behold HIM in ETERNITY; God allows us to make our own CHOICE out of LOVE, Angels also, Satan declined the offer (LDS concocted a term called “free agency”). WE CHOOSE our eternity. He doesn’t foist anything on us. We have the FREEDOM to accept or reject His FREE GIFT.

What is so hard about that - the concept here is the personal decision of each individual: to know, love and serve God

Or

To be MY OWN GOD, do what I DESIRE, to NOT LOVE my God or my fellow man…

PS How do you feel about your own impending “godhood”? That is tied into your answers here about the pre-existance…
 
Pre existance implies duplicity of some kind…and that we were all cognizant in some form of consciousness…

For punishment, Eve’s pains of labor would be greatly increased…showing right here that new life came from Adam and Eve, from our earthly parents cooperating with the life giving spirit of God.

It is at conception…that we are conceived…in God’s will not ours…how many want to have children but are unable?

Adam and Eve were made in the image of God…one trait being their free will. All human beings are created with a free will, same as the angels. But the angels could see God and could in an instant decide to be servants of God or oppose Him.

Sin upsets the whole order of the universe…only God can forgive sin. And there is always compensation…proper restitution must be made.

The heirs to Adam and Eve have iniquity of sin passed on to them; they did not live in sinless dwellings…so they witnessed human sin in their families…so you can’t say it is unfair that we are blamed for the sins of Adam and Eve either. We are their off spring…and we sin even though we do not want to.

The sin of Adam and Eve broke their relationship with God by their disobedience and their desire to be as gods.

And not only to we have the DNA of our own parents, but that going all way back to our mutual original parents.

The only proper restitution had to come from God Himself…His Son. It is in Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit in the grace of faith that we are then made adopted sons and daughters of God…there are no other pre-mortals out there…wishful thinking…
 
No matter how you cook it up, either with a serving of original sin or not, without the pre-existence, you have God filling the world with souls corrupted with evil intent that, since He made, He is responsible for. Man is capable of incredible sin and depravity and God knew this would be a time of testing but to have actually Him creating souls subject to sin and depravity and then unleashing them on the innocent souls, to prey on them, is just too much for me to believe.

No, it makes much more sense to me that we are our own spirits, always have been, and this is a proving grounds that we signed up for, knowing the risks. If God created both our bodies and spirits and made them into souls, what are we even responsible for then? I don’t think this rejection of the pre-existence and free will are even compatible.
Aux contraire, mon ami. What you fail to understand is that God creates every soul, and they are absolutely perfect when He creates them. The problem of its corruption occurs when that perfect soul is infused into the corrupt flesh (body) that was procreated by the imperfect man and woman. Man “creates” the body through the natural process of the flesh, but God creates the perfect soul that will inhabit that imperfect body. When the soul enters that corrupt flesh, it becomes tainted by the flesh it’s joined to. The soul is affected/infected by the corruption of the flesh that it inhabits.

God ***never ***creates anything evil, but man corrupts everything he touches through his own sinful nature which resides in his flesh. Man (his flesh) is the one that is always corrupt since the fall of Adam & Eve, not God. Baptism washes away his sin from his soul, but the soul will only remain totally clean until the flesh corrupts it once again, by falling back into sin.
 
He’s not responsible if we agreed to it.

I think you ought to concede this point. It’s okay, you don’t have to call the Mormon missionaries and demand Mormon baptism. You can say “well this is what my church teaches and I don’t understand it all but I trust them.” That’s perfectly acceptable in a religious argument. But the pre-existence is the only way this world makes sense.
Personally, I strongly disagree with all of your arguments about the ‘preexistence’ being the only way the world makes sense, and will never ‘concede’ the point. God is not responsible for man’s corruption, only man is. Adam & Eve corrupted themselves by listening to the devil, that told them they could be “as gods” if they ate the fruit that God forbade them eating. God tested them, and they failed that test by their own free will. They chose to disobey God, Who had given them life and every possible happiness, and chose to follow the temptation of Satan, instead.

They really wanted to be ‘‘just like’’ God, and look where it got them, and all the rest of us. 😦
 
If people had a pre-cognizant existance…

Look at this earth, and its vale of tears…if if there are premortals…then they also have insight into what awaits them if they decide to be born…and then they must also chose who they want for their parents. Think of the premortals born poor in ancient times and gladly became gladiators ending their lives as a form of entertainment…the booty of slavery after conquest…

Nobody in their right mind would want to come here with all the terrible things that are happening now.

The scientists are working on making their own morphed humans…making man made plagues and pestilences, the man made weapons, man fooling around with the weather…birds and fish suddenly dying in huge numbers…the human sex trafficking and broken homes, etc., etc., etc.
 
KathleenGee:

Not a pre-cognizant pre-exitence, a fully cognizant pre-existence.

Telstar:

Go back to Jeremiah 1:5–God knew Jeremiah and in your model, He created both his body and spirit but he somehow knew he would turn out okay. So the other possibilites are God created us but he has no control over how we turn out. That seems to be saying He doesn’t create our spirit or, if He does as you claim, that He has know idea or control over our susceptability to sin. That would seem to argue against him being omniscent.

Just to review, the Mormon teaching is that intelligences/spirits are eternal and we lived with Heavenly Father always. There was a plan to progress by giving us bodies and that involves this eartly life. A Redeemer was provided so we could find our way back. We agreed to that plan. The people who did not are the 1/3 host of heaven mentioned in Revelations and they do not receive physical bodies.
 
And if there were evil “intelligences” floating around and God created spirit bodies for them and sent them here as evil human beings He is also responsible for unleashing them on the innocent souls here.
Human beings do not have spirit bodies, we have natural bodies. We also have a spirtual soul that is limited by it’s life in a damaged, mortal body, where it began. There is no preexistence.

If there are beings walking the earth in a “spirit body,” they are other than natural human beings.

ICXC NIKA
 
KathleenGee:

Not a pre-cognizant pre-exitence, a fully cognizant pre-existence.

Telstar:

Go back to Jeremiah 1:5–God knew Jeremiah and in your model, He created both his body and spirit but he somehow knew he would turn out okay. So the other possibilites are God created us but he has no control over how we turn out. That seems to be saying He doesn’t create our spirit or, if He does as you claim, that He has know idea or control over our susceptability to sin. That would seem to argue against him being omniscent.

But what about your free will choice? You can chose to be a sinner. God gives you your soul and you determine how you use what God has given you.

Just to review, the Mormon teaching is that intelligences/spirits are eternal and we lived with Heavenly Father always. There was a plan to progress by giving us bodies and that involves this eartly life. A Redeemer was provided so we could find our way back. We agreed to that plan. The people who did not are the 1/3 host of heaven mentioned in Revelations and they do not receive physical bodies.

I didn’t agree to that at all since I did not exist before I was created. You are talking about angels and they never have physical bodies since they are spirit only.
It’s not Revelations. The Book of Revelation is the final book of the New Testament.

[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 1:1-11[/BIBLEDRB]
 
Human beings do not have spirit bodies, we have natural bodies. We also have a spirtual soul that is limited by it’s life in a damaged, mortal body, where it began. There is no preexistence.

If there are beings walking the earth in a “spirit body,” they are other than natural human beings.

ICXC NIKA
I’m talking about LDS “theology” and how it does not make more sense.
 
Telstar:

Go back to Jeremiah 1:5–God knew Jeremiah and in your model, He created both his body and spirit but he somehow knew he would turn out okay. So the other possibilites are God created us but he has no control over how we turn out. That seems to be saying He doesn’t create our spirit or, if He does as you claim, that He has know idea or control over our susceptability to sin. That would seem to argue against him being omniscent.

Just to review, the Mormon teaching is that intelligences/spirits are eternal and we lived with Heavenly Father always. There was a plan to progress by giving us bodies and that involves this eartly life. A Redeemer was provided so we could find our way back. We agreed to that plan. The people who did not are the 1/3 host of heaven mentioned in Revelations and they do not receive physical bodies.
Once again, you’re claiming that I said God creates both our body and our soul, when I never said that at all. The only human being that was ever completely created “from scratch”, was Adam. Eve was actually created from Adam’s rib, so even her body was originally a part of Adam’s flesh (“they will become one flesh”). I thought I made it extremely clear that the soul (the spiritual part of man) is the only part of us that is perfectly created by God. The body is the result of the natural action of the parents (it’s created by them through the marital act). I also never made any such claim that God cannot or will not influence our path, through His Grace. He will always freely give His gifts, when and wherever it pleases Him to do so. He will pick any soul to favor, according to His own reasons for choosing them. If we follow His lead by living our lives according to His Laws, then He will certainly be more inclined to give those gifts to us. If we choose to oppose Him, then we will encounter His wrath in the end.

In Jeremias, God says:*[4] And the word of the Lord came to me, saying: [5] Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.*He most certainly knows everything about us in detail, down to the very number of every hair on our head. He has always known every detail of the lives of every creature (including the animals) that has ever lived, or will live on this earth, and He has known it all from the beginning of creation. I’m definitely not the one that has any doubts about the enormity of God’s true majesty, power and glory.

No offense, but we all know the Mormon teachings that have been repeatedly posted by LDS. They diminish God’s true power and glory in so many ways that I can’t even begin to list them, because it would be too long to post it, even in multiple posts. LDS beliefs reduce God to a mere mortal man, that somehow developed to become “a god” (out of an endless number), through a strange process attributed to the twisting of the definition of the word “exalted”, along with the twisting of the Bible to somehow fit that poorly defined process that in reality, is nowhere to be found in the Bible. If you choose to believe in an imperfect version of God and His creation, then that’s your choice, and you’ll have to explain to Him when you see Him. 🤷
 
If Christ wanted us to know all these Mormon ideas, we would have known them about the same time as the Council of Nicea, because by then Christians were not being persecuted, to live and express their faith freely and reflect on it more in theological terms.

Gnosticism was already proven not the work of the Holy Spirit. Mormonism is a form of Gnosticism and Arianism…which St. Athanasius opposed and which led to the Nicean Council.

The Holy Spirit at work in the Church through its Christ chosen authority declared the Council’s teachings…addressing movements of theological questions and error, laid them to rest…and Christ was fully revealed as both Man and God, same substance of God.

There are no new revelations. Christ came at the fullness of time both for the Jewish people and mankind.

How people can believe and have credibility on ideas coming 1800 years later that contradict and change the focus of faith back on to man himself…that is the work of an anti Christ…man making himself a god…anti christ.

So to willingly accept such ideas from a belief system that condemns Christianity as corrupt…that is such a broad, condemning and sweeping statement that really invalidates itself…one should instead reflect on one’s self why one would be drawn to such a belief system whose membership makes you automatic saints…

There are no martyrs in Mormonism because your god is not enough to die for…because it is based on man who wants to save and please himself…wearing a mask of religion.

Christianity has always had the thrust in our ‘corrupt’ clergy to extend Christ’s love to all people, even in times of war, personal danger, plagues…it is the Christians who have gone out to help everyone, not those of their same persuasion…

There were no pre mortals…to say such a thing also gives one the impression of polytheism…multiple gods…a pre existance fully cognizant…when an infant up to the age 3 is not…is a form of polytheism…multiple gods…man as god.
 
Yes! I know you’ve ceeded the point when you change the subject to a general attack on how all of Mormonism is bad. That is how you say “I can’t answer this but I believe in what I’ve been taught!” just as I suggested you should. It’s okay, really, you don’t have to be able to explain contradictions in order to be a good Catholic. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge.
 
Telstar, that was just a misunderstanding. But I can’t really accept that He would create our spirits because He would have created them perfectly. No Hitlers, just all Adams. What am I missing here?
You are missing the fact that we are created with free will. You are also missing the fact that Adam freely chose to disobey God. I think one part of the equation that prevents you from seeing the truth in this is that you reject the concept of original sin and the effect that it has on all human beings. The evil in world around us testifies to the reality of original sin and its effects. It is why we need a Savior. We cannot attain perfect holiness on our own because we tend toward sin due to our fallen nature. Not sure why you would use Adam as a contrast to Hitler. The only person that could be used in contrast would be the new Adam, Jesus Christ, or the new Eve, Mary, the Mother of God. These are the only two persons in human history to live free of sin.
 
Yes! I know you’ve ceeded the point when you change the subject to a general attack on how all of Mormonism is bad. That is how you say “I can’t answer this but I believe in what I’ve been taught!” just as I suggested you should. It’s okay, really, you don’t have to be able to explain contradictions in order to be a good Catholic. Faith is not to have a perfect knowledge.
Huh??? :confused:

If this is supposed to be a response to me, then I guess you’ve relinquished making any intelligent counter argument, because you can’t possibly find any way to refute anything that I presented concerning our beliefs regarding creation. I’ll gladly take that as a win if you insist on giving it to me. That’s a clear win for our side! Thank you! 😃

Touché! 👍

Unless, your real intention was to convert me to your way of thinking so I would have doubts, and possibly leave my Church for yours. But, if that was your true intention, then it’s clearly not Kosher to do that on this forum. So, I’m guessing you really are ready to take the loss. No? 🤷
 
Adam & Eve Created without sin = sinless
Jesus the God man took on a human form = sinless
Blessed Mother preserved from sin = sinless

= 4
 
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