Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

  • Thread starter Thread starter SteveVH
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
When Early Church Fathers say something a Roman Emperor later finds to be distateful, you run away from it and claim it was really nothing. Address THAT.
:confused: Huh…run away…what are you talking about…it is you who have run away…instead of answering the question…you come with this…it is called a deflection…an attemp to not to answer the question…

Now here is my challenge to you…you said…“When Early Church Fathers say something a Roman Emperor later finds to be distateful”…why don’t you show some evidence of this…otherwise…it is just a lot of hot air coming from you…because you cannot answer the question posted by Texan Knight…
 
Nope. YOU have admitted it. You keep comparing people you allege are “prophets, seers and revelators” to people who have never made that claim. I have warned you how ludicrous that is. but, because you have nothing else, you continue to do so, thereby placing your folks on the same level as our folks BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION. IF they are on the same level as our folks, as YOU insist, then they are not prophets and apostles.

YOUR admission. Not mine.

And I thank your for your insisted admission
And if they are…then what is the basis for the LDS claim to existence? What is the basis for the LDS claim for the truth of their doctrines?
 
StephenKent…

I went back to early writers who wrote treatises on pre mortal existence…they were proposing, St Augustine considered them…but they were eventually condemned as heresies…again…it is the Holy Spirit at work in the Church, and again, the full revelation of Christ did not actually come about until the Council of Nicea…Christ of the same substance of the Father, no beginning, no end, but made man at the Incarnation.

That Emperor Constantine, who was in the making to be baptized, – one could say he had already the baptism of desire – defended the decision of the Church;…how believers, the faithful united with their bishop and the Holy Father in communion affirm the working of the Holy Spirit …the truth of Jesus Christ.

Theologians assist us in interpreting the Word of God for our specific times…again in submission to the Church in the Holy Spirit, and offer their works for review. It is the Church that in the end decides if they are free from error or not.

Right now Pope Benedict is taking his time in choosing the replacement for Cardinal Levada who is retiring, who heads the office of the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith. This position was formerly held by no other than Pope Benedict himself…

I was very blessed to have studied under Cardinal Levada through his appointee…the main concern was to correct any errors lay catechists may have.
 
From Solomon Spalding’s Manuscript Found:
religious cerimonies. It expresses them to this effect. “There is an intelligent omnipotent Being, who is self existant & infinitely good & benevolent – Matter eternally existed – He put forth his hand & formed it into such bodies as he pleased – He presides over the universe & has a perfect knowledge of all things – From his own spiritual substance he formed seven sons – These are his principal agents to manage the affairs of his empire – He formed the bodies of men from matter Into each body he infused a particle of his own spiritual substance, in consequence of which man in his first formation was inclined to benevolence & goodness. There is also another great inteligent {MS-057} Being who is self existent & possessed of great power but not of Omnipotence – He is filled with infinite malice against the good Being & exerts all his subtlety & pow to ruin his works – Seeing the happy situation of man he approached so near as to touch his soul with his deliterious hand – The poison was immediately defused & contaminated his passions & appetites – His reason and understanding received no injury – The good being looking upon his unhappy ofspring with infinite love and compassion made a decree that if mankind would reduce their passions & appetites under the government of reason he should enjoy blessings in this world & be compleatly happy after his soul quits his body. Death desolves the connection – Etherial Bodies are prepared for the souls of the righteous – These bodies can pass thro’ any part of the universe & are invisable to mortal eyes. Their place of residence is on a vast plain which is beautified with magnificent Buildings – with Trees, fruits & flowers. Here they enjoy every delight which] No immagination can paint the delights, the felicity of the Righteous. But the wicked are denied etherial bodies – Their souls naked and incapable of seeing light, dwel in darkness & are tormented with the keenest anguish – Ages roll away & the good being has compassion upon {MS-058} them – He permits them to take possession of etherial bodies and they arise quick to the abodes of delight & glory:
Code:
                            THE  "MANUSCRIPT  FOUND."                             29
Now O man attend to thy duty & thou shalt escape the portion of the wicked & enjoy the delights of the righteous Avoid all acts of cruelty to man and beast * defraud not thy neighbour, nor suffer thy hands secretly to convey his property from him – Preserve thy body from the contamination of lust – & remember the seduction of thy neighbors wife would be a great Crime –
solomonspalding.com/docs/lds1886.htm

Do you see the parallels with the King Follett Discourse?
 
Contrary to the rule which forbade the carrying of weapons on a feast-day, Simon Peter not only carried a sword, but swung it, to send a message not only to Malchus but also to Malchus’ boss: Back off!

But Jesus had his own message and his own mission. There to that olive grove on the other side of Kidron, where Jesus had often met with his disciples, Judas, who had betrayed the Lord, had come, leading a detachment of soldiers and some chief priests and Pharisees. They, too, were carrying weapons. Rather than hide when they came, Jesus had stepped forward to meet them. “Whom seek ye?” he had asked.

“Jesus of Nazareth.”

“I am he,” had been his response.

Judas had stood there with the soldiers and the religionists but apparently he with all the others had drawn back and fallen to the ground upon the Lord’s statement.

So the Lord had asked them a second time, “Whom seek ye?”

“Jesus of Nazareth.”

“I have told you that I am he. If therefore you seek me, let these go their way.”

Jesus had in essence offered himself freely, while also seeking the protection that he himself, at the synagogue in Capurnum, earlier had prophesied would be afforded to his disciples. “Of them whom thou hast given me, I have not lost any one.”

Peter, apparently, would have none of it, and “having a sword, drew it, and struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his right ear.”

“Jesus therefore said to Peter: Put up thy sword into the scabbard. The chalice which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?”

Peter’s intended, sword-dealt message was the wrong one, apparently.

And Peter would be wrong again. “I know not what thou sayest,” he would say to the maid who would come to him saying, “Thou also wast with Jesus the Galilean.” And again, even with an oath, he would say, “I know not the man,” saying it to others there to hear his response to a second maid who would say, “This man also was with Jesus of Nazareth.” And to yet others he would say, this time with cursing and swearing, “I know not the man.”

The Church did not speak these words. Peter did. The Church does not deny the Christ. Peter did.

The Vatican Council has defined as “a divinely revealed dogma” that “the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks *ex cathedra *— that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church — is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals . . . .”

In short, popes themselves can speak in their private capacity as theologian, preacher or allocutionist, or in their capacity as a temporal prince or as a mere ordinary of the Diocese of Rome and they thereby do not claim infallibility.

For an *ex cathedra *decision it must be clear that the pope intends to bind the whole Church. In other words, his intent must be to demand internal assent from all the faithful to his teaching under pain of incurring spiritual shipwreck (naufragium fidei) according to the expression used by Pius IX in defining the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin. The presumption is that unless the pope formally addresses the whole Church in the recognized official way, he does not intend his doctrinal teaching to be held by all the faithful as ex cathedra and infallible.

Such a teaching about the infallibility of the pope is both reasonable and acceptable. The Church should not be bound by statements not intended to be ex cathedra. And yet the pope is still the pope and should be honored as such.
 
The Vatican Council has defined as “a divinely revealed dogma” that “the Roman Pontiff, when he speaks *ex cathedra *— that is, when in the exercise of his office as pastor and teacher of all Christians he defines, by virtue of his supreme Apostolic authority, a doctrine of faith or morals to be held by the whole Church — is, by reason of the Divine assistance promised to him in blessed Peter, possessed of that infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer wished His Church to be endowed in defining doctrines of faith and morals . . . .”

In short, popes themselves can speak in their private capacity as theologian, preacher or allocutionist, or in their capacity as a temporal prince or as a mere ordinary of the Diocese of Rome and they thereby do not claim infallibility.

For an *ex cathedra *decision it must be clear that the pope intends to bind the whole Church. In other words, his intent must be to demand internal assent from all the faithful to his teaching under pain of incurring spiritual shipwreck (naufragium fidei) according to the expression used by Pius IX in defining the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin. The presumption is that unless the pope formally addresses the whole Church in the recognized official way, he does not intend his doctrinal teaching to be held by all the faithful as ex cathedra and infallible.

Such a teaching about the infallibility of the pope is both reasonable and acceptable. The Church should not be bound by statements not intended to be ex cathedra. And yet the pope is still the pope and should be honored as such.
This is in regards to “ex-cathedra”. Which is but one-way a teaching becomes infallible.

The Pope doesn’t have to speak ex-cathedra for the teaching to be infallible in regards to morals and faith. That is an incorrect understanding just to clarify. If you would like to actually learn more let me know, I’ll provide in info.

The question that begs to be asked is why would any of Joseph Smiths teaching’s be infallible. Why should anyone pay any attention to any of this at all? 🤷 There’s not only a breach in Apostolic Teaching here, the Protestants have a total disregard for Mormon theology from the reformation foward which is self-evident today. In fact they can’t stop talking about the Mormon church on SBN.

There is nothing “anywhere” consistant with 1776 years of Christianity with Joseph Smith. When archaeology points to “no evidence” to 4-AD America, then what makes anything Joseph Smith states infallible, or even somewhat in the realm of reality?

You remain tied to a lacking belief the man was a “prophet”. There is no historical evidence to support anything Joseph Smith stated. In fact the Historical evidence which does exist confirms 2000 years of the Apostolic Church.

The Moron Bible teaching is so fringe that under scrutiny it simply holds no water. Their is not a shread of evidence as to the OP. None, we are left with a theory which suggests in Genesis a time gap between Chapter one and two. The Chapters didn’t exist in the early Law, what did exist was a symbol indicating a time lapse between the chapers. Thats it, conjecture proceeds from here by preachers. There simply is no Biblical evidence to the OP of anyone pre-existing Adam and Eve but the Trinity. And in fact none of this would have a bearing on the Cross and Jesus Christ.

In fact if you really want to, I could extend this to my own hypothosis just as Joseph Smith did and allow me to show you exactly how. Just to show you the folly of this.

I could state for fact that Adam in 2-21 was dreaming and you can’t prove it wrong. For here’s another fact, after Adam fell into a “deep-sleep” no-where does it state he awoke? I should build my own religion on my theory, and dreams/imagination of the Lord and deem myself the Last Prophet, oh but the “vanity” of all that!🤷

One fact is certain, I would never underestimate technology and archaeology as Joseph Smith did. The world is awaiting the evidence of Horse’s in the USA in 4-AD. Cattle? Anything? Oh I hear perhaps it was a Tapir:rolleyes: There’s a sound theory. 👍
 
The statements you quote from my posting, set forth in yours immediately above, are taken from the Gospel of John in the New Testament and from the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm).

The point is a simple one: leaders in both Churches have leeway to be what Christ says of of all, we all can fall short of Christ’s perfection and God in his Church accounts for that. Just as much as Origen or any pope has the God-given leeway to say something personally that the Holy Roman Apostolic Catholic Church is not bound by, so too any leader or member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the God-given leeway to say something personally that the LDS Church is not bound by. That’s the simple point being made.

I again, for the fourth time, request that posters make at least a token effort in all of this posting to dialogue about the passages I quoted from Wisdom chapter 8 and Wisdom chapter 15 (see my posting number 367, above, which I here quote in relevant part):
Kathleen is correct in stating that Protestants oppose Catholicism’s acceptance as Sacred Scripture those books that the Protestants flatly and wholly reject (what the Protestants call the “Apocrypha”). She points to Protestants’ “omitting the Books of Wisdom, Sirach and others that would give one a greater insight into the nature of God, nature law sic], and the nature of creation.” But she is actually somewhat misdirected in stating that the Latter-day Saints follow or join the Protestants regarding the Protestants’ rejection of those books.

Although it is true that the Latter-day Saints use the King James Version of the Bible as their authoritative text (which omits the Apocrypha), they do not either reject those additional books of scripture that otherwise are found in the Catholic versions nor do they “oppose Catholicism” in referring only rarely to those books. On the contrary, the Latter-day Saints believe – as a matter of canonized scripture (D&C 91:1, 5) – that in those other books of scripture “there are many things contained therein that are true . . . and whoso is enlighted by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom.” The Latter-day Saints, far from rejecting those texts, accept them, only they do so with caution. Again, the Latter-day Saint view of those scriptures is not at all the Protestant view and the two views should not be lumped together and rejected together.

Take the eighth chapter of the Book of Wisdom, for example. Latter-day Saints likely would accept at face value what is taught therein. Of course, both Catholics and Latter-day Saints, in the end, could be charged with the fallacy of reading into Wisdom chapter 8 their own respective opposing theologies, but one must admit that the text says what the text says (and the rest is left up to interpretation, which some, no doubt will offer).

In chapter 8, the author clearly and unmistakably differentiates between himself, on the one hand, and the *eternal principle of Wisdom *on the other (“Wisdom I loved” (v. 2); "I resolved to have her as my bride: (v. 2); “I fell in love with her beauty” (v. 2); “I therefore determined to take her to share my life” (v. 9); “When I go home I shall take my ease with her” (v. 16)).

Yet, in verses 19-20 we read the following: “I was a boy of happy disposition, I had received a good soul as my lot, or rather, being good,* I had entered an undefiled body*.” Interpret that as one may, it is simply a straightforward reading of the text itself. It seems to constitute “scriptural evidence [not “proof” mind you, but scriptural evidence”] for ‘pre-mortal existence.’"

The foregoing quotations from Wisdom 8 are taken from the New Jerusalem Bible (NJB), a Catholic translation of the Bible published in 1985, the most widely used Roman Catholic Bible outside of the United States, enjoying the imprimatur of Cardinal George Basil Hume. The same texts may be quoted, too, from the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition, as follows: “Her [wisdom] have I loved” (v. 2); “* have desired to take her [wisdom] for my spouse” (v. 2); “I became a lover of her [wisdom’s] beauty” (v. 2); “I purposed therefore to take her [wisdom] to me to live with me” (v. 9); “When I go into my house, I shall repose myself with her [e.g., with wisdom]” (v. 16); and “I was a witty child and had received a good soul. And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled” (vv. 19-20).*
 
Yes, to affirm Gary, infallibility can be declared in this way…but there are others…and the Holy Father’s infallibility only pertains to faith and morals…and the teaching,…because it is a movement of the Holy Spirit…and not the man…such decrees are affirmed by the bishops and all believers in the communion of faith.

The teaching of the immaculate conception of Mary goes all the way back to ancient Christian times…but in all this period of time, there developed not only a ‘science’ of Christology, but also that of sanctity, ascetism, and spirituality.

Over and over again, the same conclusions or ends of these various charisms of sanctity throughout the universal church…meaning different peoples, races and cultures…over the period of hundreds of years…brought forward a consistent outline of formation…that would encompass every spiritual person in the universal church, not just a given local.

This understanding of spirituality…union with God…became very clear, and it coincided with the veneration and devotion to the Blessed Mother. It was not until the 1850’s that it became very apparent through the working of the Holy Spirit, that Mary was indeed conceived without sin. So when the Holy Father decreed it dogma that she was so, the Church readily assented…and was already there in belief for almost 2,000 years.

Joseph Smith was very lucky not to have any single person among his followers challenge him.

Also, just about every early Church Father made atleast one heretical statement. Every single one…but they submitted to the Church… It is the Teaching Magesterium of the Church, working through Peter and the bishops…their successors, along with the Holy Spirit present in all believers…that confirm the ongoing depth of understanding of our faith.

What I am seeing in Mormons, because your faith is based on an individual, unchallenged man who was not held accountable for his convictions…and the projection of man as pre mortal…living along with God…in a pre existent state…think of it…all human beings who lived, live now, and will be coming into this world…all present in the state of being with God…as truth…I can’t fathom it as a non-theologian. Emperor Constantine, a most astute man, who overcame many destructive elements in the world he lived in, did not believe in it either.

There is this ongoing tendency within the constructs of Mormonism to find ‘truths’ in individual, disconnected men…disconnected I mean…those having their theological reflections considered as possible truths…but those prior to be submitted to the deposit of faith found alone in the Catholic Church.

Some of the early church fathers you mentioned, in spite that some of their theological questionings and treatises had heretical errors, did not mean they closed their minds to church authority and left it. They remained and grew in truth.
Some of them became saints. And you must remember, that in those days the means of communication were very slow, so things took time to study and discern that which is truth and that which is not in our ongoing understanding of Who Christ is for the times we live in.
 
Also, Stephen…you bring up Peter using the sword.

When Christ had first assembled His apostles, at the very beginning He named Peter, Cephas (Greek), which means ‘rock’. He did not give a particular name to any of the other apostles.

Then immediately, prior to His arrest and crucifixion, He named Peter, Pedra, again the rock, and said Peter would have the keys to heaven for eternal life, and what is bound on earth (by the Church) is bound in heaven…who assents to the decrees by the Primacy of Peter.

The keys can only fit that which gives us eternal life. This means, only the Catholic Church, headed by the primacy of Peter, can bring us, can lead us into eternal life. Now, God alone of course is the one Who opens or closes heaven. The Church does not take the place of God, but provides us the sacraments, especially the Eucharist…as Christ said…would bring us eternal life.

Immediately after Peter was named the rock upon which Christ’s Church would be built, Christ then said His hour had come, but then suddenly, Peter tried to prevent Him from being killed. Christ then called Peter Satan, right after He appointed Him to head His Church…because Peter was thinking as man, not as believer.

So again, we must base our faith on God and His will, and not the thinking of men.

And after Peter was appointed the rock of the Church upon which he would begin representing Christ… Peter was called Satan by Christ because he then began to think as man.

And Peter denied Christ three times. He and the other apostles hid themselves, except John who endured in love.

It was the Holy Spirit at Pentecost Who filled these frightened and abandoning apostles with His Spirit of strength and conviction…this is when the Apostles received the Sacrament of Confirmation.
 
Joseph Smith and his partners borrowed Gnostic beliefs from Masonry, Solomon Spalding, Emanuel Swedenborg, Islam, the Eastern religions, and many others. He re-interpreted the Bible according to his beliefs. They built their own religion out of pre-existing Gnostic beliefs. A study of Irenaeus’ Against Heresies makes that clear. Maybe they even borrowed from his description of Gnostic beliefs. :rolleyes:

books.google.com/books?id=WsQUAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=against+heresies&hl=en&sa=X&ei=67QmT8XbHsi-gAe_o7ngDw&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=against%20heresies&f=false
 
Thanks for the link, Jerusha.

The Mormons misrepresent now St. Ireneaus to their followers making the claim that he supported the idea that men become as gods…they misuse CCC460 to prove early Church Fathers had same beliefs as they do.

St. Irenaeus and St. Athanasius were the greatest apologists in affirming the One, True God and the nature of Jesus Christ, and if they were alive today, they would most likely be the greatest apologists confronting and refuting the claims of Mormonism.
 
The statements you quote from my posting, set forth in yours immediately above, are taken from the Gospel of John in the New Testament and from the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm).

The point is a simple one: leaders in both Churches have leeway to be what Christ says of of all, we all can fall short of Christ’s perfection and God in his Church accounts for that. Just as much as Origen or any pope has the God-given leeway to say something personally that the Holy Roman Apostolic Catholic Church is not bound by, so too any leader or member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has the God-given leeway to say something personally that the LDS Church is not bound by. That’s the simple point being made.

I again, for the fourth time, request that posters make at least a token effort in all of this posting to dialogue about the passages I quoted from Wisdom chapter 8 and Wisdom chapter 15 (see my posting number 367, above, which I here quote in relevant part):
Alright Stephen, I’ll take you up on this one:knight2::nunchuk: - question is, what will you accept as a valid answer? Who must it be from? Must it be simple logic or from tradition, or from Scripture or which would you like?:confused:
 
Your post, Stephen of 367, is Solomon speaking of a most profound love and value for Wisdom, the primary and most eminent fruit (she)…of the Holy Spirit (masculine)…I studied a year’s required Latin in Catholic high school, studied and spoke Portuguese and lived among Italian, Portuguese and Spanish missionaries, with no Americans, for about 2 years.

Other languages are not like English, where we simple use the, a, an and the do not use gender in naming inanimate or religious adjectives with nouns.

The soul is referred to as ‘she’ in English in pertaining to the soul, to the Church, and in the sense of describing the fruits of the Spirit in relationship of soul to God…although when written with an adjective…o timor de Senhor…that is masculine.

Solomon is taking Wisdom into the depths of his very being…and this desire to have Wisdom to such a degree beyond those living in his times…his choice reflects his own pure and undefiled soul, a grace given him by God and Solomon, because he already values wisdom, is very wise to incorporate Wisdom as his spouse…

Solomon had many wives and concubines.

The interpreter of Mormonism is man’s exaltation…that is the motif, if you want to call it that, or charism, that Mormonism uses…contrasting with Catholicism…to see the value and essence of man as you perceive it.

If I were to read Wisdom some time ago, I still would not even think of pre mortal existence…but see that as someone uniquely given the desire to value Wisdom above riches, power, wealth…a most pure soul seeking union with God as the most important quest.

We use the Book of Wisdom in part because it reflects the state of the soul entering the unitive state…seeking union with God through love…and God is our end in heaven…communion with Him and with all those who have endured in the Cross and followed Christ.

Solomon is speaking of his relationship with the Holy Spirit’s fruit… Wisdom…as female in terms of a soul hungering for union with God. Because Solomon chose God over creation, he was greatly blessed.
 
Stephen, what exactly is the point? You have already admitted your leaders are not prophets and apostles

So, come back to the truth
 
StephenKent;8892376:
So…? Here is what you do not see…Peter’s love for the Lord.

In the account, Peter is the only one ready to act for Christ, the only one ready to defend him. And this is what makes Peter the rock, that is why Christ chose to name him Rock…Cephas/Peter…traits Christ saw in him…and which you fail to see.

You are picking and choosing again…or proof texting.

And here is another insight into Peter’s inner character…**…note he is the only one mentioned after the arrest. **
And where is he at…at the courtyard…close enough to be seen and recognized…this speaks of bravery and courage…traits of Peter…that Jesus saw in Peter to make him Rock.

But of course, we all know his moment of weakness…his denial of Christ.

But you seemed to have stopped here…Why don’t you also post the Bible verses where it shows Peter weeping bitterly, repenting his denial of Christ?

Actually “the one whom Jesus loved” went in to the Sanhedrin trail with Jesus…Peter stayed out in the courtyard and hid himself…denying Christ three times…Peter WAS NOT the only disciple who followed him.🤷
 
Stephen, before I respond, I need to know:
If our souls pre-existed, why did they come down to earth and inhabit bodies? What is the official Mormon position on this that I can work with?
Going for a mind-clearing walk in the woods - I’ll be back in a bit. Hopefully, you’ll have responded by then. Again, I need to know the official (as of today) position of the LDS Church on pre-existence of souls, why they now inhabit bodies etc.
 
StephenKent,

Again, to go a little deeper…into the issue of American Mormon interpreters…and our conviction that Mormonism is outside of Judeo Christian intent and practice…and the use of translating through one’s native language…I reviewed a little of my own exposure to foreign languages, primarily those of the Romance languages.

‘Wisdom’ in Italian is feminine, ‘Saggeza’, ‘Sapienza’.

‘Wisdom’ in Portuguese…is feminine, ‘de Sabedoria’…The fruits of the Holy Spirit when speaking of the Fruits in general becomes masculine, ‘Os Frutos de Espirito Santo’.

‘Wisdom’ in Latin in general use is ‘Sapientia’, feminine. ‘Wisdom’ in action is ‘Prudentia’, feminine…but I already gave you prudence as another fruit of the Holy Spirit…discerning how to act.

We call a ship as ‘her’, … this human use of naming our counterpart and livelihood as feminine…as the ancients were human like us, it is not surprise that Solomon referred to the fruit of the Holy Spirit as she…and he, blessed with wisdom and desire to act on wisdom, realized his soul was pure before God…in reference to his own undefiled soul.
 
Again…you are interpreting finite man, seeing a carnal woman instead of Wisdom…not reading the rest of Peter…being named the rock and then a few moments later, being called Satan…

We listen to God speaking through our Church…not finite man…there is a difference of true believers, what is Holy Spirit speaking and teaching and what is of man.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top