Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

[pablope]

pablope;8893159:

Actually “the one whom Jesus loved” went in to the Sanhedrin trail with Jesus…Peter stayed out in the courtyard and hid himself…denying Christ three times…Peter WAS NOT the only disciple who followed him.

Hmmmm…Peter did not hide himself…

From Luke 22…54 Then seizing him, they led him away and took him into the house of the high priest. Peter followed at a distance. 55 And when some there had kindled a fire in the middle of the courtyard and had sat down together, Peter sat down with them. 56 A servant girl saw him seated there in the firelight. She looked closely at him and said, “This man was with him.”

From Mark…53 They took Jesus to the high priest, and all the chief priests, the elders and the teachers of the law came together. 54 Peter followed him at a distance, right into the courtyard of the high priest. There he sat with the guards and warmed himself at the fire.

From Matthew…56 But this has all taken place that the writings of the prophets might be fulfilled.” Then all the disciples deserted him and fled. …58 But Peter followed him at a distance, right up to the courtyard of the high priest. He entered and sat down with the guards to see the outcome.

From John 18… 15 Simon Peter and another disciple were following Jesus. Because this disciple was known to the high priest, he went with Jesus into the high priest’s courtyard,

John does not say who the other was…could have been Judas?

 

[soren1]

Not one person has posted any cogent thoughts or analysis about the passages I quoted from Wisdom chapter 8 and Wisdom chapter 15. Why are those passages not being discussed? They have been advanced as “scriptural evidence for ‘pre-mortal existence.’”

This is a fair complaint, and I will respond to it. Because you have quoted some scholarly sources that I am not familiar with, I have ordered them from my library to read before I respond. I will get back to you on it sometime next week.

However, I have to agree with Kathleen Gee that a Mormon is not in a position to cite the Wisdom of Solomon as a “scriptural source.” You might accept Wisdom as a good book and a historical witness to ancient Jewish belief, but not as a source for doctrine in the way scripture is. Because it is scripture to us, you are right to hold us accountable to it, but only by accepting the Catholic canon hypothetically, for the sake of argument. Perhaps that is all you intend, but I didn’t find it to be clear in your other posts.

 

[theidler]

To the Catholics and other Christians on here debating Mormonism:
It came to me whilst walking that Mormonism is akin to the mythical Hydra. Many times, the Fathers refer to heresies as being like snakes, and this is no exception in the least. But whereas many of the early heresies were heretical based off the notion of one heretical central concept (Arianism for example as based on the notion that the Son was merely a creature), Mormonism is a kind of hodgepodge of many heresies and bizarre ideas rooted in 19th century America. Much akin to a corpse brought back to life by sewing together various heretical parts…
But back to the Hydra analogy - Mormonism is akin to this creature because of its many non-Christian and heretical ideas sprouting out of one body, and when one is attacked, several other heads attack us in the meantime. It is nearly an impossible fight. We are dealing with several major ideas here:
The doctrine of pre-existence of souls is directly obtained from Platonism (no doubt a most virtuous philosophy, but a pagan one nonetheless, and therefore not all of its ideas are compatible with Christianity).
The idea of Jesus being merely a man at one time has some relation to what is known as Socinianism, as well as hints of Arianism.
The doctrine of a plurality of gods is obvious polytheism by definition, something foreign to all three Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).
There are also elements of Mormonism’s beginnings at least that are very related to the time period - the amero-centrism, racism, and the like.
We have many heads to deal with brothers and sisters - but if the myth can be taken as is, it is said that Heracles cauterized each head after it had been lopped off. Therefore, we must endeavor to nail down and utterly refute beyond any shadow of doubt each heretical idea or fraudulent root so that no counter-argument can be given.

 

[KathleenGee]

I had a young man peering over my shoulder who needed the printer…

When I say Peter hid himself, I am referring to he and the other apostles who by then were in hiding at the crucifixion until Resurrection Sunday, with Mary Magdalen seeking them out, a courageous woman who was also at the foot of the Cross with Blessed Mother and St. John.

 

[theidler]

Stephen, I hope you respond soon, as I need to know the official Mormon position (as of today) regarding the pre-existence of souls and why this doctrine is held, what caused their fall, etc.

In the meantime, I offer a verse that came to me on my walk:

“And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” (Gen. 2:7)

We can see here that God made man corporeally first, before endowing him with a soul.

 

[KathleenGee]

I would agree that Mormonism is a type of synthesis of various philosophies that greatly reflect undeveloped and unchallenged belief in God…theological base still in the making as Mormonism both invalidates salvation history of Jews and Christians by adding new stories that are unsubstantiated through experience…and interpreting as man.

The decisions and actions of Peter, who was named Cephas, Peter two times by Christ, at their beginning relationship and towards the end of Christ’s earthly mission, then Peter uttering remarks that as Christ said, were of Satan because Peter was thinking in terms of man, who then proceeded in promoting his position by cutting off a man’s ear, and denying Christ 3 times…in spite of Peter’s sacred calling!

This shows us that Christ chooses those to work for His kingdom, men of clay, always given free will and intellect to conform to ‘spirit and truth’, or to fall back and depend on self to live out the Christian life.

If we depend on our humanity alone, we will fail, because the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. St. Paul exhorts us not to judge even ourselves…but as Scripture over and over states in many passages to not put our trust in man.

That is why for we Catholics, that conversion is a life long process, that those who enter into eternal life are fed from the life of Christ Himself, that we deny our very selves to dying to self, and embracing Christ, and carrying our own cross in following Him.

Likewise, there have been all church fathers who did teach error/heresy…but still became saints, because they were obedient to spirit and truth at work in the Holy Spirit in the Church. The beginning Church was just a seed that grew. How many excellent pupils in their development make mistakes, but learn from them and move on?

You can reference early church fathers, bishops, teachers, theologians, and apologists but none of them ever spoke 100% truthfully and perfectly when teaching. It is only the primacy of Peter, when speaking solely of faith and morals…cannot err…and is falling back as well on the tradition of faith and holiness, as it has been lived out, one block so to speak, building upon another…consistent, and most of all bearing the fruit of life in Christ.

So if you go back to the ancients…you have to be careful of the context…what was deign to be in the spirit of the Church in the deposit of faith in Christ and that what came forward that was not…after all, God is working with finite human beings.

Finally, Stephen, you mentioned the Apocrypha/Deutrocanon books…and there is a discussion about them, ‘Protestants are missing out on the Book of Eccleslastics…’

After the Protestant Reformation took hold, the Church reconvened in reflecting on the removal of books by Luther and others. But after deliberation, the conclusion was that the Apocrypha was indeed inspired by God and returned as canon. So the Church listened to the Reformers, removed the books for more discernment, but then again came to the conclusion with the Holy Spirit that these books were indeed inspired.

 

[StephenKent]

“Because it is scripture to us, you are right to hold us accountable to it, but only by accepting the Catholic canon hypothetically, for the sake of argument. Perhaps that is all you intend, but I didn’t find it to be clear in your other posts.”

Thank you very much for your offer to discuss the main topic we have all been invited to discuss. Yes, all I intend to do by mentioning Wisdom 8 and 15 is to invite the Catholics and Latter-day Saints who are contributing to this discussion to simply accept as valid, Roman Catholic scripture, the text of the book of Wisdom. We can totally disregard any position that either the Latter-day Saints or Protestants, for their part, may take regarding the book of Wisdom. That is entirely beside the point. We’re here asked to discuss “scriptural evidence for ‘pre-mortal existence’” and I have advanced passages from those two chapters merely as a starting point for discussion of whether they do or do not qualify as “evidence” (not “proof” but mere “evidence”) of pre-mortal existence.

Origen cited and analyzed scripture to support his view that the pre-mortal existence of souls was consistent with and indeed inherent in Christian theology, and if not express clearly implied in the writings of Paul; the Anathema against Origen unfortunately cited no scripture to counter his view. Thus, we are left with only the scriptures themselves. And I have thus simply posited the passages from these two chapters as a starting point for discussion. Obviously there will be differing interpretations. I have offered one (namely, that the text, it seems to me, differentiates between the person speaking and the eternal concept of wisdom about which the speaker speaks; hence, any mention he makes that he as a spirit entered his mortal body (“I came to a body undefiled”) seems to merit some discussion.

Thank you for your promised response.

 

[theidler]

Thank you very much for your offer to discuss the main topic we have all been invited to discuss. Yes, all I intend to do by mentioning Wisdom 8 and 15 is to invite the Catholics and Latter-day Saints who are contributing to this discussion to simply accept as valid, Roman Catholic scripture, the text of the book of Wisdom. We can totally disregard any position that either the Latter-day Saints or Protestants, for their part, may take regarding the book of Wisdom. That is entirely beside the point. We’re here asked to discuss “scriptural evidence for ‘pre-mortal existence’” and I have advanced passages from those two chapters merely as a starting point for discussion of whether they do or do not qualify as “evidence” (not “proof” but mere “evidence”) of pre-mortal existence.

Origen cited and analyzed scripture to support his view that the pre-mortal existence of souls was consistent with and indeed inherent in Christian theology, and if not express clearly implied in the writings of Paul; the Anathema against Origen unfortunately cited no scripture to counter his view. Thus, we are left with only the scriptures themselves. And I have thus simply posited the passages from these two chapters as a starting point for discussion. Obviously there will be differing interpretations. I have offered one (namely, that the text, it seems to me, differentiates between the person speaking and the eternal concept of wisdom about which the speaker speaks; hence, any mention he makes that he as a spirit entered his mortal body (“I came to a body undefiled”) seems to merit some discussion.

Thank you for your promised response.

Thank you for ignoring my response.

 

[StephenKent]

" . . . If our souls pre-existed, why did they come down to earth and inhabit bodies? What is the official Mormon position on this that I can work with?
. . . . I need to know the official (as of today) position of the LDS Church on pre-existence of souls, why they now inhabit bodies etc.

Probably the best starting place is the list of scriptures set forth here:

lds.org/scriptures/tg/man-antemortal-existence-of?lang=eng

Remember: (1) The Church has canonized scriptures (like the Roman Catholic Church) and that is the guide for each Church. The listing of certain scriptural passages is not a compiliation of scripture passages “binding” on the Church, of course, but it at least is a starting point. And remember (2) the LDS Church is bound by its scriptures but not bound by various interpretations that people – LDS or not – may derive from or impose on those scriptures.

On a personal note, sparked by the way you phrased your question, I would comment as a side note as follows:

The idea of the pre-mortal existence of spirits, as you know, of course, is not new. It is not even new to Christianity. Putting aside the action taken against Origen in AD 355, it was an idea circulating prominently among Christians for three centuries, bolstered by Origen’s and others’ interpretations of *scriptures *. But put aside the question of whether such teachings were or were not heretical or were or were not properly discounted by later Council action.

The teachings themselves did serve as a guidepost to interpretation and understanding of human experience, as the Church Fathers themselves argued. Indeed, the concept of a pre-mortal existence of souls has been used throughout history, including in early Christianity, to explain numerous difficulties, including, as just one example, unevenly distributed pain and suffering.

But apart from that, theological questions abound regardless whether one accepts the notion or rejects it. And this is what is prompted by the way you ask your question (“Why did they come down to earth and inhabit bodies?”). One might extend the question: If the soul is created with the body, why does it not perish with the body? If God creates a soul at the moment of conception or quickening or at some other point between conception and birth, how can that soul be imperfect? If it is created innocent and pure, when does it acquire the burden of Adam’s sin? How? Why? And is it *just * for God to allow that otherwise innocent soul immediately to have imposed upon it such guilt and sin?

The same can be asked on the other side of the same coin: If pre-mortally created souls come into mortal bodies from an existence that long pre-dated the child’s conception and birth, why should parents, with power to create the body only, be assigned responsibility also to develop the soul? If the soul is so ancient, why the lag-time between an infant’s birth and the person’s maturity?

I do not pretend to know the answers to any of these questions. They are at least posited and discussed in Terryl L. Givens, When Souls Had Wings: Pre-mortal Existence in Western Thought (New York: Oxford University Press, 2010).

 

[theidler]

Apparently I am not worth responding to:shrug: - I asked some questions to set the basis for discussion…no answer. I responded with a verse from Scripture…no response.
I was the first to accept Stephen’s challenge, and not even a whiff of a response. Nice.

 

[StephenKent]

" . . . a Mormon is not in a position to cite the Wisdom of Solomon as a ‘scriptural source.’ You might accept Wisdom as a good book and a historical witness to ancient Jewish belief, but not as a source for doctrine in the way scripture is. . . ."

The question that started this entire discussion (post number 1), simply asks, in a Catholic Answers Forum, “Where in biblical Scripture is there any evidence of this?” That question neither expressly nor implicitly excludes the Book of Wisdom.

Even if the question had been asked in a more limited way, referring to the version of the Bible used by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (“Where in the King James Version of the Bible is there any evidence of this?”), it still could have included the Book of Wisdom (the KJV is offered both with and without the Book of Wisdom, though the LDS do not print their version with the Book of Wisdom in it).

But that is not my point. My point is simply this: the Latter-day Saints are told – in their canonized scripture, mind you – that in those books found in what Protestants call the “Apocrypha” are “many things . . . that are true,” and “whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom.”

I personally find the Book of Tobit to be one of my favorite books of all. I personally go out on a limb to believe that it actually is historical, against the grain of many scholars, of course. A study I did of the book in 1997 suggested to me that the entire book is unified by a chiastic structure that gives meaning and focus to the entire story: see tinyurl.com/82kdjqk (preview.tinyurl.com/82kdjqk). But that’s another story altogether.

 

[StephenKent]

"‘And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.’ (Gen. 2:7)

We can see here that God made man corporeally first, before endowing him with a soul.

Thank you for that passage. I’m wondering whether you are reading that to refer to Adam or to all men. Regardless of your answer to that question, either answer is perfectly acceptable, in advance.

Neither statement, however, answers the underlying question: “formed man of the dust of the ground” seems to signify, correct me if I’m wrong, that the “dust of the ground” pre-dated the formation of the man therefrom. Query whether the “breath of life” pre-dated the breathing of it into the man. I don’t see that the passage, taken for what the passage says, answers that question.

 

[theidler]

I think before we go any further in this discussion, Stephen, we need to know what the official Mormon position is (as of today).

 

[soren1]

The question that started this entire discussion (post number 1), simply asks, in a Catholic Answers Forum, “Where in biblical Scripture is there any evidence of this?” That question neither expressly nor implicitly excludes the Book of Wisdom.

Even if the question had been asked in a more limited way, referring to the version of the Bible used by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (“Where in the King James Version of the Bible is there any evidence of this?”), it still could have included the Book of Wisdom (the KJV is offered both with and without the Book of Wisdom, though the LDS do not print their version with the Book of Wisdom in it).

But that is not my point. My point is simply this: the Latter-day Saints are told – in their canonized scripture, mind you – that in those books found in what Protestants call the “Apocrypha” are “many things . . . that are true,” and “whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom.”

I personally find the Book of Tobit to be one of my favorite books of all. I personally go out on a limb to believe that it actually is historical, against the grain of many scholars, of course. A study I did of the book in 1997 suggested to me that the entire book is unified by a chiastic structure that gives meaning and focus to the entire story: see tinyurl.com/82kdjqk (preview.tinyurl.com/82kdjqk). But that’s another story altogether.

This is all fine. I suspected you held something like this. I see we have no quarrel here.

 

[SteveVH]

I think Latter-day Saints will be honored to give you their thoughts about your new question. I for one would be honored also to hear your thoughts about the original question.

Stephen, with all due respect, this is not a new question, but rather was the original question asked in Post No.1 which started this thread:

It seems that at the heart of the differences between many Mormon and traditional Christian beliefs lies the doctrine of pre-mortal existence; the idea that we have co-existed from eternity with God as eternal “intelligences” who then become “spirit children” of God and then came to earth to take on human flesh in order to begin the process of exaltation for the final purpose of becoming gods ourselves. Within this doctrine is also the belief that even inert matter is co-eternal with God, having no beginning. This doctrine is so basic to Mormon thought that it governs nearly all of its subsequent theology and is the cause, in my opinion, of much misunderstanding.

The question really had to do with the nature of God and whether or not he is the origin of all things; whether God is truly omnipotent or rather dependent upon co-existing “things”. It is the matter of co-existence from eternity that is really at the core of the question. Perhaps the question could have been stated more clearly.

I will, however, be happy to comment on your question concerning the cited verses in the Book of Wisdom. I can only speak generally at this point as I have not studied this in depth (and will also be very interested in Soren1’s comments). I think it is important to keep in mind the genre in which the Book of Wisdom is written before drawing any credible conclusions. It is, I believe, a poetic genre. “Wisdom”, as I am sure you are aware, is, in Catholic thought, a reference to the Holy Spirit and is spoken of in the femine gender. We do not believe the Holy Spirit has any gender, as that is a human, not a divine charactaristic. So we cannot strictly apply the literal sense when arriving at an interpretation of these verses. The verse (8:20) “Yea rather, being good, I came into a body undefiled” therefore, cannot be taken in a strict literal sense, especially when we consider other verses within the same chapter, such as 8:13 “Moreover by the means of her I shall obtain immortality…”, the obvious implication being that he did not already possess it. I will grant that it may be “evidence”, as you claim, but, in my opinion, scant evidence.

I appreciate your well thought out posts and look forward to your comments on my “new” question.

 

[StephenKent]

Stephen, with all due respect, this is not a new question, but rather was the original question asked in Post No.1 which started this thread . . . ."

I am aware of that. I have been waiting for (name removed by moderator)ut on the Wisdom chapter 8 and Wisdom chapter 15 passages before delving into your second question. I have posted no thoughts whatsoever on the second question you have posed but plan to do so once we finish the discussion of your first question. Thanks.

 

[Telstar]

StephenKent, you claim that no one has addressed your quote from Wisdom Chapter 8, but you came late to the thread, about 15 posts after I had already answered BDawg’s same assertion regarding that line. Apparently, you either didn’t read the whole thread before jumping into it, or you just ignored my post. Either way, here it is, again.

Lets look at it in context. Solomon is speaking of his relationship with the Wisdom of God. The entire book is about him speaking of God’s Wisdom by personifying it, as if it were a woman. It was one of God’s greatest gifts to him.
Wisdom 8: [16] When I go into my house, I shall repose myself with her: for her conversation hath no bitterness, nor her company any tediousness, but joy and gladness. [17] Thinking these things with myself, and pondering them in my heart, that to be allied to wisdom is immortality, [18] And that there is great delight in her friendship, and inexhaustible riches in the works of her hands, and in the exercise of conference with her, wisdom, and glory in the communication of her words: I went about seeking, that I might take her to myself. [19] And I was a witty child and had received a good soul. [20] And whereas I was more good, I came to a body undefiled.

[21] And as I knew that I could not otherwise be continent, except God gave it, and this also was a point of wisdom, to know whose gift it was: I went to the Lord, and besought him, and said with my whole heart:

Wisdom 9: [1] God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things with thy word, [2] And by thy wisdom hast appointed man, that he should have dominion over the creature that was made by thee, [3] That he should order the world according to equity and justice, and execute justice with an upright heart: [4] Give me wisdom, that sitteth by thy throne, and cast me not off from among thy children: [5] For I am thy servant, and the son of thy handmaid, a weak man, and of short time, and falling short of the understanding of judgment and laws.

[6] For if one be perfect among the children of men, yet if thy wisdom be not with him, he shall be nothing regarded. [7] Thou hast chosen me to be king of thy people, and a judge of thy sons and daughters. [8] And hast commanded me to build a temple on thy holy mount, and an altar in the city of thy dwelling place, a resemblance of thy holy tabernacle, which thou hast prepared from the beginning: [9] And thy wisdom with thee, which knoweth thy works, which then also was present when thou madest the world, and knew what was agreeable to thy eyes, and what was right in thy commandments. [10] Send her out of thy holy heaven, and from the throne of thy majesty, that she may be with me, and may labour with me, that I may know what is acceptable with thee:

[11] For she knoweth and understandeth all things, and shall lead me soberly in my works, and shall preserve me by her power. [12] So shall my works be acceptable, and I shall govern thy people justly, and shall be worthy of the throne of my father.
The line you pulled out of context describes the soul that was created for him by God, being a special gift that was given to him, for the purposes that God had ordained for him to fulfill. God knows everything that will ever happen, long before it does. That’s just more proof of the amazing, true power of God, and certainly not that we ever existed before we were born.

It’s too bad King James decided to throw Wisdom out with the bath water, eh?

O wait… wasn’t it supposed to be the “great and abominable” Catholic Church that removed all of those “plain and precious things” from the Bible?

 

[Telstar]

Chapter 15 of Wisdom has a similar line to the one in chapter 8, taken out of context, again. That particular chapter describes those who create ‘gods’ in their own image and likeness, or the image of beasts to worship as idols, while failing to recognize the true God that gave them life. I found it a little ironic that you insisted on using a quote from that particular chapter to support your claims.

 

[SteveVH]

I am aware of that. I have been waiting for (name removed by moderator)ut on the Wisdom chapter 8 and Wisdom chapter 15 passages before delving into your second question. I have posted no thoughts whatsoever on the second question you have posed but plan to do so once we finish the discussion of your first question. Thanks.

I and others have given some unput on your question concernning the 8th and 15th chapters of Wisdom. Looking back, however, I see that I did not specifically comment on Charpter 15. I see nothing there that implies a pre-mortal soul. I fail to see how the fact that God “breathed” a soul into man translates into an pre-existing soul. What it does imply is that man did not possess a soul until it was given to him by God, therefore God is the origin of that soul. Maybe you could further explain why God breathing a soul into man means that the soul already existed. To me it means that the soul came into existence at the very moment God “breathed” it into us.

 

[KathleenGee]

Stephen,

I don’t have the computer skills to type out all of Ch 8 and 15 of Wisdom…as Lori has shown you going back to the specific passages…in bold print…to us it is very clear again, as I pointed out to you posts 233-236 that Wisdom,— and now today – Sabedoria - Sapientia – Saggrazza/Saprienza, etc… feminine form of Wisdom in Latin and some of the Romance languages as the greatest fruit of God…the greatest fruit of the Holy Spirit…and how no man except Solomon sought ‘her’ as his beloved…and for this God greatly bestowed many blessings on him. As Stephen indicated, the language is poetic, one of endearment…and the theme of God as Wisdom carries through as well in that verse of Proverbs you had us review.

It will be interesting to see how Soren can elucidate and clarify for you our responses.

Also stated as before, is the Mormon foundational idea of God vs the Catholic one…along with the projection of man onto God…in next post I will compose the Nicene Creed we are now using, from the literal Latin translation into native tongue that is already in use in other languages in next post.