Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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You are exactly correct. My only point was a different one. They (Wisdom of Solomon and other books labled by the Protestants as “Apocrypha”) were never a part of the “Bible” from the time it was first assembled by the Jews. Between about 400 B.C. and about A.D. 382 the “Bible,” as it were, did not include those books. They, indeed, were added. Indeed, most of them were written after 400 B.C. That’s the only point I was making. Most Christians claim that the Old Testament canon was “closed” or “completed” with Malachi. And that’s an acceptable premise to start from. But once one accepts that premise, one must accept one of the conclusions that can derive from it, namely, that any books later enumerated and accepted as part of that canon can only be said to have been “added” to it. And that is not only historically accurate but entirely an acceptable situation. God is not dead but can speak to the children he never ceased to love. That is the LDS position and we think the Roman Catholic Church not only should and does acknowledge that it is an acceptable position to take but it is historically accurate.
You need some history lessons. The Canon was the canon. Martin Luther took out the books now called “apocrypha”. In fact, He also wanted to take out the Book of James.

I accept the Book of Mormon for what it is…a book of fiction. In the original, Joseph Smith was called the author and I do not dispute that
 
You need some history lessons. The Canon was the canon. Martin Luther took out the books now called “apocrypha”. In fact, He also wanted to take out the Book of James.

I accept the Book of Mormon for what it is…a book of fiction. In the original, Joseph Smith was called the author and I do not dispute that
This “story” has been told by Catholics so often many believe it is truth…but fact is…it is not the truth. Martin Luther DID NOT REMOVE them from the canon.
 
This “story” has been told by Catholics so often many believe it is truth…but fact is…it is not the truth. Martin Luther DID NOT REMOVE them from the canon.
ok…they removed themselves when Martin Luther was alive
 
This “story” has been told by Catholics so often many believe it is truth…but fact is…it is not the truth. Martin Luther DID NOT REMOVE them from the canon.
You are right,he did not take them out of the Bible,but technically he DID REMOVE THEM by stating they were not at par with other scripture-make sense?
 
That is perfectly understandable and acceptable. My post has nothing to do with the question of whether the deuterocanonical books are or are not “correct” or “inspired” (and on the same token with the question of whether the Book of Mormon is or is not “correct” or “inspired”). The point is simply this one: if in earlier centuries the Roman Catholic Church can feel comfortable about adding to the canon after it is “closed” or “complete,” then it is not in a very strong position to argue on that ground alone that the Latter-day Saints have committed an unacceptable act in adding to the canon in our day. That’s the only point being made.
You are exactly correct. My only point was a different one. They (Wisdom of Solomon and other books labled by the Protestants as “Apocrypha”) were never a part of the “Bible” from the time it was first assembled by the Jews. Between about 400 B.C. and about A.D. 382 the “Bible,” as it were, did not include those books. They, indeed, were added. Indeed, most of them were written after 400 B.C. That’s the only point I was making. Most Christians claim that the Old Testament canon was “closed” or “completed” with Malachi. And that’s an acceptable premise to start from. But once one accepts that premise, one must accept one of the conclusions that can derive from it, namely, that any books later enumerated and accepted as part of that canon can only be said to have been “added” to it. And that is not only historically accurate but entirely an acceptable situation. God is not dead but can speak to the children he never ceased to love. That is the LDS position and we think the Roman Catholic Church not only should and does acknowledge that it is an acceptable position to take but it is historically accurate.
First of all, the Jews of that time period never had anything like the “Bible” that we have, today. They had a collection of many separate books of scripture that were used in their services, but there really wasn’t a complete book, containing all of them. There were also many separate factions within Judaism (much like Christianity, today), and some had different sets of scriptures that were not all known, or accepted, by the other groups. So, for you to say that they had anything like a set “canon” of universally accepted scriptures, such as the Bible, is very misleading, no matter what Wikipedia tells you. As I’ve already said, the Alexandrian Jews clearly included those books as part of their collection of Holy Scripture. So, whether the Palestinian Jews did or not, is completely beside the point. They were, in fact, Jewish scriptures that were used by some Jews, because they believed them to be true scripture.

Whatever “most Christians” (whoever they are) claim, is totally irrelevant to me. I follow the teachings of the Magisterium of the Church because I only trust them to be correct. We’re discussing the Bible that was compiled by the Catholic Church in 382 AD (the Latin Vulgate), that was written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to include everything that God intended for it to contain, whether or not some of those Jewish scriptures might not have been accepted by some of the Jews of that time period. So, anything prior to the Catholic Bible Canon of the Latin Vulgate, is not relevant to consider as being “added to” or changed by the Church.

The whole purpose of creating a standardized Bible was to ensure that other texts that were written by various early Christians, that contained many heretical errors, would no longer be used during services in the Church. The Church has the responsibility of protecting all of the teachings that were given to Her by Jesus, from becoming muddled by the errors of false interpretations of individuals that would change the real truth of those teachings. She has always taken that responsibility, very seriously. That’s why heretics were always dealt with swiftly, and their errors corrected as quickly as possible by the leaders of the Church.

The Roman Catholic Church hasn’t made any changes to the Canon of Holy Scripture since it was first compiled and translated into Latin. Whatever the Jews did concerning their scriptures prior to that, or since then, is completely irrelevant to the Catholic Church, or the Bible that She assembled. We are not subject to whatever the Jewish people accept as “canon”, any more than we’re subject to LDS or any other church’s accepted “canon”.
 
You are right,he did not take them out of the Bible,but technically he DID REMOVE THEM by stating they were not at par with other scripture-make sense?
Since it was pre-Trent from what I understand…AND the Cathoic church had had many of it’s own scholars over the centuries agree with Luther. It was not a settled issue pre-trent was it? Hadn’t the deut/apoc books been disputed for centuries? Wasn’t it Catholics doing the diputing prior to the Reformation?

To claim Luther removed them from the canon…seems less than truthful to me:shrug:
 
Since it was pre-Trent from what I understand…AND the Cathoic church had had many of it’s own scholars over the centuries agree with Luther. It was not a settled issue pre-trent was it? Hadn’t the deut/apoc books been disputed for centuries? Wasn’t it Catholics doing the diputing prior to the Reformation?

To claim Luther removed them from the canon…seems less than truthful to me:shrug:
Scholars agreed with Luther? In opinion,but in doctrinal truth? Nope! That is the difference between Luther and the reformers who pushed for their own wills/doctrines and let us say: Jerome. Jerome put aside his will for the will of the church,which is guide by the HS to give us the current canon and other doctrines/dogma.

Disputation,again has no bearing on doctrinal Truth. The Trinity was disputed before it was ratified in 325 A.D…and after,thus it negate it? Again,God is not concerned with our human opinions,but only His Truth.
 
Scholars agreed with Luther? In opinion,but in doctrinal truth? Nope! That is the difference between Luther and the reformers who pushed for their own wills/doctrines and let us say: Jerome. Jerome put aside his will for the will of the church,which is guide by the HS to give us the current canon and other doctrines/dogma.

Disputation,again has no bearing on doctrinal Truth. The Trinity was disputed before it was ratified in 325 A.D…and after,thus it negate it? Again,God is not concerned with our human opinions,but only His Truth.
Friend, my point was that the apoc/duet books WERE still disputed as to their “authority” in the Catholic church way before Luther…to claim “Luther removed the books from the Protestant Bible”, is not the truth.🤷
 
Publisher is clarifying that the books were not removed, but they were delegated to the back as uninspired.

The books of Scripture were set and in use by 110-120 AD. The Sacred Scriptures and the Church’s interaction with them was already functioning from its beginning. The apostles’ teachings were constantly checked and controlled by the living community because by that time there was a set and uniform understanding that comprised its corporate tradition, 'C.E.D. Moule, ‘The Birth of the New Testament,’, 1962, pp 191-94.

The Canon was complete by the early decades of the 2nd century, along with a set form of liturgy…but the Canon was not definitely finalized in the West until 380-90, and the East, later.

Also this link shows the interplay between Christians and Jews and onward…www.cathtruth.com/catholicbible/cathprot.htm

To imply that nothing was ever set up regarding the interpretation and tradition of living out Scripture at the beginning of the Church is inferring the Holy Spirit was not at work among the apostles and believers.
 
“Luther chose to place the Apocrypha between the Old and New Testaments. These books and addenda to canonical books are found in the Greek Septuagint but not in the Hebrew Masoretic text. Luther left the translating of them largely to Philipp Melanchthon and Justus Jonas.[13] They were not listed in the table of contents of his 1532 Old Testament, and they were given the well-known title: “Apocrypha: These Books Are Not Held Equal to the Scriptures, but Are Useful and Good to Read” in the 1534 Bible.”

Sounds like he sorta removed them

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Bible
 
To LDS, not accepting any idea of ‘sola scripture’ or closed canon, the inclusion or not of any book within the bible or any other collection of scripture has no bearing whatsoever on its relevance or potential benefit to us. I believe I said this before: Song of Solomon is included, and some LDS authorities have publicly suggested it is of almost no doctrinal worth whatsoever. I believe I have heard some individuals suggesting its pages could just as well be taped up together.
My only real point being that there are many things of great worth and beneficial to uplift us and draw us closer to God which are not canonical scripture. I fail to see the point in an argument over what is and what isn’t - even within the scriptures some things touch one person more than they do another; something which one person finance great personal value in, another might regard as merely useful advice, even though the source may be truly inspired. It has a great deal to do with personal understanding, preparedness, and individual circumstances.
 
Mormon Cultist…

The bottom line, however, is integrity of faith. What is the intent of Sacred Scripture but to profess faith in the One True God, to accept God’s moral law for us in the Decalogue, and to restore us through His Son, Christ.

To make Scripture say what it is not, to give another message that fractures the common faith we are all called to in God, is reflecting a profound moral issue. You either decide on Joseph Smith’s Book of Mormon and all the man made teachings as your way, or you accept Sacred Scriptures and God’s way.

The Catholic Church allows Biblical Studies of various shapes and forms that do not communicate orthodoxy and the deposit of faith. There are feminist Bible Studies that a number of women religious utilize, there are charisms of different religious orders that interpret Scripture in line with their practices, and various others.

The Catholic Church has so much on spirituality and faith expression in multi forms, that not one culture or peoples are chronologically able to digest it. You have the impression that the Church is repressive and narrow minded…

Try visiting our Vatican Library and you will see how broadminded Catholicism truly is.
Western Civilization and science was developed through the Book of Wisdom, but it focuses on God as Wisdom and how God is now ready to help us live now and into the future…
 
Luther railed against the “the epistle of straw” otherwise known as the Epistle of James; and didn’t think much of Hebrews, Revelation either.

“The Epistle of James has acquired special prominence in Christendom because of Martin Luther’s claim that its emphasis on good works does not agree with St. Paul’s doctrine of justification by faith…” intro to James, NAB CCD edition.

… faith without works is dead as per Chapter 5 of James.
 
Friend, my point was that the apoc/duet books WERE still disputed as to their “authority” in the Catholic church way before Luther…to claim “Luther removed the books from the Protestant Bible”, is not the truth.🤷
Indeed my friend.Yes it is a lie Luther removed them because he never did. Much like the lie the RCC added books.

And yet again…the Trinity was disputed before and after yet made official doctrine-yes or no? Is it still disputed by Mormons or JW’s? Yes! Does it change doctrinal Truth? No!

Do you accept or reject the Trinitarian doctrine?

Yes those books were disputed,but didn’t matter once they were canonized. If the church is going to be concerned or waiver for every Jane and Joe’s opinions or disputations or disagreements,then Jesus promise to guide His Church with the Holy Spirit was all a big lie then.
 
To LDS, not accepting any idea of ‘sola scripture’ or closed canon, the inclusion or not of any book within the bible or any other collection of scripture has no bearing whatsoever on its relevance or potential benefit to us. I believe I said this before: Song of Solomon is included, and some LDS authorities have publicly suggested it is of almost no doctrinal worth whatsoever. I believe I have heard some individuals suggesting its pages could just as well be taped up together.
My only real point being that there are many things of great worth and beneficial to uplift us and draw us closer to God which are not canonical scripture. I fail to see the point in an argument over what is and what isn’t - even within the scriptures some things touch one person more than they do another; something which one person finance great personal value in, another might regard as merely useful advice, even though the source may be truly inspired. It has a great deal to do with personal understanding, preparedness, and individual circumstances.
The above bolded words have clearly lead to DANGEROUS doctrines and beliefs over the centuries. Do LDS ACCEPT Gnostic writings as POTENTIAL BENEFIT?
 
LDS are very confused, and accept as beneficial anything that, taken out of context, will support their innovations.

Such as St Augusttine. He wrote a lot that LDS reject entirely. The Eucharist, the necessity of infant baptism, the Honly Trinity. They cherry pick, and try to make their new religion squeeze into anywhere they can. Including gnostic writings…they are after all, gnostic in nature themselves, such as salvation via secret knowledge.

They also believe that some truths are not beneficial. Any truth that might cause a Mormon to question the teaching of the Mormon Church fall into this category.

It is life in a maze.
 
Agreed, Brigham Young claimed that many of the things he stated were doctrine; and went so far as to claim that every word he spoke could be taken as doctrine. This does not make him a liar (i.e. intentionally misleading), merely mistaken.
No, we have not. We compare statements made by individuals that you do not hold to be infallible, to statements made by individuals that we do not hold to be infallible.
Please tell me what the person who you believe to be your prophet today taught at your last general conference that you have completely disregarded because you believe it is opnion.

I look forward to your answer.
 
You are exactly correct. My only point was a different one. They (Wisdom of Solomon and other books labled by the Protestants as “Apocrypha”) were never a part of the “Bible” from the time it was first assembled by the Jews. Between about 400 B.C. and about A.D. 382 the “Bible,” as it were, did not include those books. They, indeed, were added. Indeed, most of them were written after 400 B.C. That’s the only point I was making. Most Christians claim that the Old Testament canon was “closed” or “completed” with Malachi. And that’s an acceptable premise to start from. But once one accepts that premise, one must accept one of the conclusions that can derive from it, namely, that any books later enumerated and accepted as part of that canon can only be said to have been “added” to it. And that is not only historically accurate but entirely an acceptable situation. God is not dead but can speak to the children he never ceased to love. That is the LDS position and we think the Roman Catholic Church not only should and does acknowledge that it is an acceptable position to take but it is historically accurate.
I recommend that you read up on the Septuagint.
 
This “story” has been told by Catholics so often many believe it is truth…but fact is…it is not the truth. Martin Luther DID NOT REMOVE them from the canon.
They were removed by Protestants in the 16th century, I think, would be the point. They are there, as already pointed out in the Latin Vulgate, and in every other Catholic Bible in every language it had been translated into at the time.

Mormons use a Protestant Bible, because they arose from American Protestantism. They try to build a story backwards in order to justify what they believe and don’t believe to be canon. Which is all beside the point because Smith rewrote the Bible anyway. They don’t believe ANY Bible to be the infallible word of God. So, being wishy washy , and saying “I like” something that is extra-scriptural to them, even when it is found in scripture, doesn’t mean anything other than…they think it helps to gain converts from other religions.
 
" . . . The books of Scripture were set and in use by 110-120 AD. The Sacred Scriptures and the Church’s interaction with them was already functioning from its beginning . . . The Canon was complete by the early decades of the 2nd century . . ."
PART ONE OF TWO:

Luke 22:43-44 has been a contentious passage because it has a very diverse textual history: some manuscripts have it and some do not. When I mentioned this passage in an earlier post, I referred to Bart Ehrman and his conclusion that the verses were not original and were added later. In reality, however, it seems the verses actually were original and were removed from manuscripts in the third and fourth centuries.

I spoke with a New Testament scholar last Friday who will be publishing about the passage later this year in a scholarly journal. His analysis will show, contrary to the conclusions of Erhman and others, that the verses actually were original to Luke and were later removed, resulting in their absence from so many manuscripts and the dubiousness that has been attached to them over the centuries. I was persuaded by Ehrman’s reliance on chiasmus to support his conclusion that verses 43-44 were intrusions into the pericope (verses 40-46); however, the upcoming publication will show how chiastic analysis actually can be shown to be inconclusive. It is, in fact, only a minor point but one worth mentioning.

As readers of my earlier post may have noticed, regarding the issue of chiasmus, Bart Ehrmann mentions in his text that verses 40-46 reveal a chiastic structure centering on verse 42, Jesus praying, with verses 43-44 being intrusive (added later). As will be pointed out in the article coming out later this year, however, both an Italian scholar and a German scholar have shown in their own independently published commentaries on Luke that, indeed, a chiastic structure does exist for the text of verses 40-46 but that the centerpiece of the chiastic structure actually falls within the text of verses 43-44, with those verses being original and not an intrusion. Those scholars, therefore, hold that chiasmus actually supports the authenticity of those two verses.

The bottom line of the upcoming publication insofar as concerns this one minor point regarding chiasmus will be that chiastic analysis will essentially be a neutral point on the question of the authenticity of verses 43-44, bearing no sway (not being probative either way) in evaluating the originality of verses 43-44. The textual criticism on verses 43-44, therefore, will run along traditional lines of manuscript evaluation and analysis of the appearance and use of the text of those verses in the works of the early Church Fathers. And the upcoming article will show that most early Church Fathers did refer to the verses while yet others did not, revealing that the verses were actually removed from some early manuscripts.

In Ehrman’s earlier (1983) article in *Catholic Biblical Quarterly *(Bart D. Ehrman and Mark A. Plunkett, “The Angel and tHe Agony: The Textual Problem of Luke 22:43-44,” *Catholic Biblical Quarterly *45 (1983): 401-16), Ehrman actually failed to mention manuscript Fragment 0171 (a late third or fourth century Egyptian manuscript found at Hermopolis Magna) which does include the verses. (More on this point can be read at many places, including, for example, at accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-143064925/angel-and-sweat-like.html.)

Ehrman argues that Clement of Alexandria and Origen are witnesses against the inclusion of verses 43-44 because they did not know and in their works never cited this passage; it clearly was not contained in the scriptures they were using. The problem with reaching that conclusion from that sort of analysis is that Clement and Origen, too, did not cite about 95% of the scriptures; they cited what they cited but to conclude that a passage did not appear in their scriptures because they did not cite or quote it is risky business. For example, Clement never talks in detail about Luke’s Passion narrative. He talks more about Matthew’s Passion narrative. The fact that Clement does not cite verses 43-44 is not proof against them.

We lack about half of Clement’s treatises. Clement explicitly comments only on verse 31 and on no other verse in Luke 22. And the next time Clement actually comments on a verse in Luke is in chapter 23. We can admit that Clement never cites verses 43-44 but that fact alone does not constitute evidence against the originality of those verses.
 
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