Scriptural evidence for "pre-mortal existence". Is there any?

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PART TWO OF TWO:

The same can be said of Origen. Ehrman argues that Origen also is a witness against those two verses. But when one looks at the pericope about the woman taken in adultery (John 7:53-8:11), one can see that Origen clearly is a source against those verses because Origen’s commentary on John is still extant and Origen skips directly from 7:52 directly to 8:12 without missing a beat. Thus we can be very sure that Origen did not know of 7:53-8:11 in the version he used of the Gospel of John. However, we do not have any such commentary by Origen on the Gospel of Luke. We do know that Origen wrote a commentary on Luke (we know this from Jerome) but it is lost.

So, we know from an analysis of Clement and Origen that Ehrman is clearly misrepresenting the evidence and overstating the case. Later Church Fathers (Hilary of Poiytiers and Jerome) who stated both that they knew verses 43-44 and that they do not appear in some manuscripts. They expressly state that they know the two verses actually do appear in some and do not appear in other manuscripts and they both are neutral on the question of authenticity.

But when you look at the earliest Church Fathers in the second century, you see that Justin Martyr clearly knew of verses 43-44, for he cites them. So by about A.D. 155, the verses were known. In the face of this, Bart argues that the verses therefore must have been added prior to A.D. 155. That, however, is merely a bald assertion. The manuscript evidence shows otherwise. Justin knew of the verses. The very next Church Father, Irenaeus of Lyons, writing in about A. D. 180, also knew of the verses. The earliest copy we have of yet another second-century apologist, Tatian, in his Diatesseron (a harmony of the four Gospels), which we have only in Latin in the Codex Fuldensis from the middle of the sixth century (about A. D. 545), also includes Luke 22:43-44. Indeed, we have a Syriac commentary on Tatian by Ephraim from the fourth century and he, too, comments on Tatian’s treatment of Luke 22:43-44 (so we know it was actually in Tatian’s work).

Thus, the three most important figures from the second century—Justin, Tatian, Irenaeus—all knew of this passage. It is not until the middle of the third century that manuscripts begin to omit the two verses. The rise of anti-Christian literature started in the late second century and became prolific in the third century. And every single anti-Christian writer we know of from that period—Celcius, Porphyry and Julian—all single out the Gethsemane narrative and say that Jesus was a weakling, with Porphyry and Julian specifically citing to Luke 22:43-44 to support their mockery of the Savior.

What did early Christians think about what was happening in Gethsemane? They in fact were at a loss to explain what was actually going on. For example, commenting on Matthew’s account, cited to Jesus statement, “Father, remove this cup from me; nevertheless, not my will but thine be done,” Origen said this simply referred to the Jewish nation: when Jesus drinks this cup, the whole Jewish nation will be destroyed. Another explanation will be that Jesus was not acutally weak, he really does not need strengthening, but he is baiting the Devil. If he baits the Devil and the Devil sets off the betrayal, this is how Jesus ultimately will conquer the Devil (a case of divine deception, playing the part to bait the Devil to get Judas to betray him). In their gropings to explain the verses, none of the early Christians actually discuss the Atonement and do not at all mention that in those drops of blood are represented the washing away of the sins of the world.

So what was going on in the third century was the Christians were faced with a problematic passage of scripture, were unable to explain it, and therefore did as was unfortunately too common: they simply omitted the verses from the manuscripts. Arian used verses 43-44 against the Orthodox, arguing the passage proves that Jesus was subordinate to God and is actually susceptible to change, an anathema. Epiphanius not only countered that the Arians were using these verses as a proof text but he also expressly lamented that Orthodox Christians had responded by omitting this passage from their scriptures. Thus he admitted that Orthodox Christians were omitting the verses from their scriptures in the fourth century in light of Arianism because it was a hard saying and Arians were using it to their advantage.

Is it possible that someone between the middle of the second century and the middle of the third century may have omitted those verses for apologetic reasons? In other words, rather than being an anti-Docetic addition, there may in fact have been a Docetic omission of the verses. And the most blatantly anti-Docetic passage in the Gospels is in Luke when Jesus is resurrected. And that is an uncontested verse, where Jesus states, “Behold, a phantasm has not flesh and bones as ye see me have.” Clearly Jesus after his resurrection is showing that he has a physical, corporeal body. That is in Luke and it otherwise is a secure verse. In other words, adding verses 43-44 did not need to be added in an effort to fight against Docetism; there is already plenty there, in Luke.

So we actually have no Church Father stating that the verses were added and we have Epiphanius admitting that the verses actually were there earlier and later were omitted. In either event, we have actual corruption of the scripture texts themselves, not merely divergent views on what they mean, and those corruptions occurred in the very earliest centuries after the death of the Apostles.
 
you probably should cite your sources AND let us know if the alleged scholar is LDS or not. I have found that LDS scholars live in a different world that any other scholar.

Also, I was wondering if you felt the same freedom that I did once I had, like you, admitted the LDS leaders were not prophets and apostles
 
I just find it interesting that StephenKent is going to somebody like Bart Ehrman…🤷
 
I am not.

There are essentially 2 forms of debating: addressing the issues or attacking the issuer. SK, since he really has no defense (nobody does) to the Book of Mormon or LDS leaders chooses to “defend” his church by ignoring the issues presented and attacking Catholic leaders and Catholic beliefs. His problem is, in doing that, he makes continued mistake of comparing people he believes talk to God and are “prophets, seers and revelators” to Catholic leaders whom we believe did not and were not those things. he simply does not understand how that hurts his argument.

Then, in an effort to further defend LDS by ignoring presented issues and attacking the Bible and Catholic Church, he had to find a writer who does at least some of those things.

It is a common flawed way to debate and shows he really has no defense for the LDS Church and its teachings.

He needs to come home to truth. We are waiting with open arms.
 
StephenKent,

I just came in from weekend work…and I have read up on Bart Ehrman…and he is doing the same thing…making texts say what they are not saying.

He is a person who is attempting to deconstruct early Christianity and imply the Scriptures were corrupted.

You have to put your trust in God. You should pray to the Lord to bless you with even greater desire for the truth. You mention lost manuscripts of Clement; many were lost of Origen, and he wrote primarily orthodox teachings except for those we had pointed out.

If the Holy Spirit saw to it that those lost documents were needed for the deposit of faith, they would be taught by the Apostles. You must follow the teachings of the Apostles. Origen accepted only 4 Gospels…he did not accept any Gnostic claims.
St. Augustine’s theology was primarily orthodox…

To understand Catholicism, you have to separate the humanity in an ecclesiastic – pope, bishop, teacher, theologian from their orthodoxy. A great pastor, very human and very orthodox, told us to listen to what he said but not what he did because he was a sinner.

When we come to our Church, Christ works through our humanity to bring us to the truth. But it is shared truth coming from the original intent and tradition of teaching given us by the Apostles. Bible studies and ‘theological reflections’ make for good musings in a group setting…but these kinds of reflections are here today and gone tomorrow.

You must put your trust instead into the Holy Spirit, Who is the Interpreter of Jesus Christ, and it is the Lord Himself Who sustains the Church. So when we go to church, we are not coming in to look at priests or bishops of themselves, we are coming in to experience God.

It is very easy for Catholics to put a good and gifted priest on a pedestal…and how many times, this adulation webs with time and familiarity or disappointment…and even worse, scandal. My grandmother told me when the parish, in the early 60’s was one of those misinterpreting faith to the people, she told me she followed Church law, went to Mass, kept her eyes on God and the Sacraments, and then went home, focusing on fulfilling the Will of God in her daily duty.

Pray to the Lord to help you detach from everything and every desire that is not leading you to God…

I will return to read your last two posts later…
 
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Zaffiroborant:
There is nothing that shows early Christians believed in marrying dead people.
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Mormon_Cultist:
There is surprising evidence that many early Christians did, in fact, believe and practise this. But would really deserve a thread all to itself.
Though it is not related to this thread, other than a request for evidence, I am asking Mormon_cultist to respond here. He has paid more attention to this thread than to the one where he made the above assertion. I would like to see this evidence so
here is a thread for him to present this evidence.
 
PART ONE OF TWO:

Luke 22:43-44 has been a contentious passage because it has a very diverse textual history: some manuscripts have it and some do not. When I mentioned this passage in an earlier post, I referred to Bart Ehrman and his conclusion that the verses were not original and were added later. In reality, however, it seems the verses actually were original and were removed from manuscripts in the third and fourth centuries.

I spoke with a New Testament scholar last Friday who will be publishing about the passage later this year in a scholarly journal. His analysis will show, contrary to the conclusions of Erhman and others, that the verses actually were original to Luke and were later removed, resulting in their absence from so many manuscripts and the dubiousness that has been attached to them over the centuries. I was persuaded by Ehrman’s reliance on chiasmus to support his conclusion that verses 43-44 were intrusions into the pericope (verses 40-46); however, the upcoming publication will show how chiastic analysis actually can be shown to be inconclusive. It is, in fact, only a minor point but one worth mentioning.

As readers of my earlier post may have noticed, regarding the issue of chiasmus, Bart Ehrmann mentions in his text that verses 40-46 reveal a chiastic structure centering on verse 42, Jesus praying, with verses 43-44 being intrusive (added later). As will be pointed out in the article coming out later this year, however, both an Italian scholar and a German scholar have shown in their own independently published commentaries on Luke that, indeed, a chiastic structure does exist for the text of verses 40-46 but that the centerpiece of the chiastic structure actually falls within the text of verses 43-44, with those verses being original and not an intrusion. Those scholars, therefore, hold that chiasmus actually supports the authenticity of those two verses.

The bottom line of the upcoming publication insofar as concerns this one minor point regarding chiasmus will be that chiastic analysis will essentially be a neutral point on the question of the authenticity of verses 43-44, bearing no sway (not being probative either way) in evaluating the originality of verses 43-44. The textual criticism on verses 43-44, therefore, will run along traditional lines of manuscript evaluation and analysis of the appearance and use of the text of those verses in the works of the early Church Fathers. And the upcoming article will show that most early Church Fathers did refer to the verses while yet others did not, revealing that the verses were actually removed from some early manuscripts.

In Ehrman’s earlier (1983) article in *Catholic Biblical Quarterly *(Bart D. Ehrman and Mark A. Plunkett, “The Angel and tHe Agony: The Textual Problem of Luke 22:43-44,” *Catholic Biblical Quarterly *45 (1983): 401-16), Ehrman actually failed to mention manuscript Fragment 0171 (a late third or fourth century Egyptian manuscript found at Hermopolis Magna) which does include the verses. (More on this point can be read at many places, including, for example, at accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-143064925/angel-and-sweat-like.html.)

Ehrman argues that Clement of Alexandria and Origen are witnesses against the inclusion of verses 43-44 because they did not know and in their works never cited this passage; it clearly was not contained in the scriptures they were using. The problem with reaching that conclusion from that sort of analysis is that Clement and Origen, too, did not cite about 95% of the scriptures; they cited what they cited but to conclude that a passage did not appear in their scriptures because they did not cite or quote it is risky business. For example, Clement never talks in detail about Luke’s Passion narrative. He talks more about Matthew’s Passion narrative. The fact that Clement does not cite verses 43-44 is not proof against them.

We lack about half of Clement’s treatises. Clement explicitly comments only on verse 31 and on no other verse in Luke 22. And the next time Clement actually comments on a verse in Luke is in chapter 23. We can admit that Clement never cites verses 43-44 but that fact alone does not constitute evidence against the originality of those verses.
I’m wondering what your point is, are you saying you want to remove verses from the Bible because their origin bothers you?

Catholics are well aware that the Bible texts went through a human process. I think perhaps our difference lies in how we view this process. Either you believe God works in and through fallible humans, or you don’t. Is your point that God doesn’t?
 
PART ONE OF TWO:

Luke 22:43-44 has been a contentious passage because it has a very diverse textual history: some manuscripts have it and some do not. When I mentioned this passage in an earlier post, I referred to Bart Ehrman and his conclusion that the verses were not original and were added later. In reality, however, it seems the verses actually were original and were removed from manuscripts in the third and fourth centuries.

I spoke with a New Testament scholar last Friday who will be publishing about the passage later this year in a scholarly journal. His analysis will show, contrary to the conclusions of Erhman and others, that the verses actually were original to Luke and were later removed, resulting in their absence from so many manuscripts and the dubiousness that has been attached to them over the centuries. I was persuaded by Ehrman’s reliance on chiasmus to support his conclusion that verses 43-44 were intrusions into the pericope (verses 40-46); however, the upcoming publication will show how chiastic analysis actually can be shown to be inconclusive. It is, in fact, only a minor point but one worth mentioning.

As readers of my earlier post may have noticed, regarding the issue of chiasmus, Bart Ehrmann mentions in his text that verses 40-46 reveal a chiastic structure centering on verse 42, Jesus praying, with verses 43-44 being intrusive (added later). As will be pointed out in the article coming out later this year, however, both an Italian scholar and a German scholar have shown in their own independently published commentaries on Luke that, indeed, a chiastic structure does exist for the text of verses 40-46 but that the centerpiece of the chiastic structure actually falls within the text of verses 43-44, with those verses being original and not an intrusion. Those scholars, therefore, hold that chiasmus actually supports the authenticity of those two verses.

The bottom line of the upcoming publication insofar as concerns this one minor point regarding chiasmus will be that chiastic analysis will essentially be a neutral point on the question of the authenticity of verses 43-44, bearing no sway (not being probative either way) in evaluating the originality of verses 43-44. The textual criticism on verses 43-44, therefore, will run along traditional lines of manuscript evaluation and analysis of the appearance and use of the text of those verses in the works of the early Church Fathers. And the upcoming article will show that most early Church Fathers did refer to the verses while yet others did not, revealing that the verses were actually removed from some early manuscripts.

In Ehrman’s earlier (1983) article in *Catholic Biblical Quarterly *(Bart D. Ehrman and Mark A. Plunkett, “The Angel and tHe Agony: The Textual Problem of Luke 22:43-44,” *Catholic Biblical Quarterly *45 (1983): 401-16), Ehrman actually failed to mention manuscript Fragment 0171 (a late third or fourth century Egyptian manuscript found at Hermopolis Magna) which does include the verses. (More on this point can be read at many places, including, for example, at accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-143064925/angel-and-sweat-like.html.)

Ehrman argues that Clement of Alexandria and Origen are witnesses against the inclusion of verses 43-44 because they did not know and in their works never cited this passage; it clearly was not contained in the scriptures they were using. The problem with reaching that conclusion from that sort of analysis is that Clement and Origen, too, did not cite about 95% of the scriptures; they cited what they cited but to conclude that a passage did not appear in their scriptures because they did not cite or quote it is risky business. For example, Clement never talks in detail about Luke’s Passion narrative. He talks more about Matthew’s Passion narrative. The fact that Clement does not cite verses 43-44 is not proof against them.

We lack about half of Clement’s treatises. Clement explicitly comments only on verse 31 and on no other verse in Luke 22. And the next time Clement actually comments on a verse in Luke is in chapter 23. We can admit that Clement never cites verses 43-44 but that fact alone does not constitute evidence against the originality of those verses.
And all of this proves what?
 
SK,

Your posts about changes to Luke 22 are a moot point regarding the RCC Bible. Those lines were included from the beginning. Even if some theologians question passages or books (Deutero-Canonical, etc.), their opinions had no effect on the Bible. They were confirmed by several Councils. Other churches that don’t accept or include them, don’t matter to the RCC.

From New Advent:
"**The formation of the Tetramorph, or Fourfold Gospel

Irenæus, in his work “Against Heresies” (AD 182-88), testifies to the existence of a Tetramorph, or Quadriform Gospel, given by the Word and unified by one Spirit; to repudiate this Gospel or any part of it, as did the Alogi and Marcionites, was to sin against revelation and the Spirit of God. The saintly Doctor of Lyons explicitly states the names of the four Elements of this Gospel, and repeatedly cites all the Evangelists in a manner parallel to his citations from the Old Testament. From the testimony of St. Irenæus alone there can be no reasonable doubt that the Canon of the Gospel was inalterably fixed in the Catholic Church by the last quarter of the second century. Proofs might be multiplied that our canonical Gospels were then universally recognized in the Church, to the exclusion of any pretended Evangels. The magisterial statement of Irenæus may be corroborated by the very ancient catalogue known as the Muratorian Canon, and St. Hippolytus, representing Roman tradition; by Tertullian in Africa, by Clement in Alexandria; the works of the Gnostic Valentinus, and the Syrian Tatian’s Diatessaron, a blending together of the Evangelists’ writings, presuppose the authority enjoyed by the fourfold Gospel towards the middle of the second century. To this period or a little earlier belongs the pseduo-Clementine epistle in which we find, for the first time after 2 Peter 3:16, the word Scripture applied to a New Testament book. But it is needless in the present article to array the full force of these and other witnesses, since even rationalistic scholars like Harnack admit the canonicity of the quadriform Gospel between the years 140-175.

But against Harnack we are able to trace the Tetramorph as a sacred collection back to a more remote period. The apocryphal Gospel of St. Peter, dating from about 150, is based on our canonical Evangelists. So with the very ancient Gospel of the Hebrews and Egyptians (see APOCRYPHA). St. Justin Martyr (130-63) in his Apology refers to certain “memoirs of the Apostles, which are called gospels”, and which “are read in Christian assemblies together with the writings of the Prophets”. The identity of these “memoirs” with our Gospels is established by the certain traces of three, if not all, of them scattered through St. Justin’s works; it was not yet the age of explicit quotations. Marcion, the heretic refuted by Justin in a lost polemic, as we know from Tertullian, instituted a criticism of Gospels bearing the names of the Apostles and disciples of the Apostles, and a little earlier (c. 120) Basilides, the Alexandrian leader of a Gnostic sect, wrote a commentary on “the Gospel” which is known by the allusions to it in the Fathers to have comprised the writings of the Four Evangelists.

In our backward search we have come to the sub-Apostolic age, and its important witnesses are divided into Asian, Alexandrian, and Roman:

*St. Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, and St. Polycarp, of Smyrna, had been disciples of Apostles; they wrote their epistles in the first decade of the second century (100-110). They employ Matthew, Luke, and John. In St. Ignatius we find the first instance of the consecrated term “it is written” applied to a Gospel (Ad Philad., viii, 2). Both these Fathers show not only a personal acquaintance with “the Gospel” and the thirteen Pauline Epistles, but they suppose that their readers are so familiar with them that it would be superfluous to name them. Papias, Bishop of Phrygian Hierapolis, according to Irenæus a disciple of St. John, wrote about AD 125. Describing the origin of St. Mark’s Gospel, he speaks of Hebrew (Aramaic) Logia, or Sayings of Christ, composed by St. Matthew, which there is reason to believe formed the basis of the canonical Gospel of that name, though the greater part of Catholic writers identify them with the Gospel. As we have only a few fragments of Papias, preserved by Eusebius, it cannot be alleged that he is silent about other parts of the New Testament.

*The so-called Epistle of Barnabas, of uncertain origin, but of highest antiquity, cites a passage from the First Gospel under the formula “it is written”. The Didache, or Teaching of the Apostles, an uncanonical work dating from c. 110, implies that “the Gospel” was already a well-known and definite collection.

*St. Clement, Bishop of Rome, and disciple of St. Paul, addressed his Letter to the Corinthian Church c. AD 97, and, although it cites no Evangelist explicitly, this epistle contains combinations of texts taken from the three synoptic Gospels, especially from St. Matthew. That Clement does not allude to the Fourth Gospel is quite natural, as it was not composed till about that time.

Thus the patristic testimonies have brought us step by step to a Divine inviolable fourfold Gospel existing in the closing years of the Apostolic Era. Just how the Tetramorph was welded into unity and given to the Church, is a matter of conjecture. But, as Zahn observes, there is good reason to believe that the tradition handed down by Papias, of the approval of St. Mark’s Gospel by St. John the Evangelist, reveals that either the latter himself or a college of his disciples added the Fourth Gospel to the Synoptics, and made the group into the compact and unalterable “Gospel”, the one in four, whose existence and authority left their clear impress upon all subsequent ecclesiastical literature, and find their conscious formulation in the language of Irenæus.**"
 
You know, sometimes I just wish that St. Thomas Aquinas would just descend from heaven for a moment or two (for that is all that it would require) to dispute with the Mormon posters on here. Even just post - though I would contend that, with all the dodging and excuses and slippery antics, we would probably need the Subtle Doctor himself, Duns Scotus, to disprove them beyond all shadow of a doubt.
Back to reality I guess…😦
 
I think any of those could do quite well just by writing a book based on internet boards over the past ten years. I suppose one of us humble still living will eventually have to do the job.

The most basic problem is that the LDS lead us around, trying to make us debate on their terms, ignoring all the debate that has gone on, even here, over that time-period. LDS beliefs have been refuted many times here, but these threads just keep going on without end. It reminds me of a flow-chart someone posted on one of these threads recently, but I didn’t find it.

I like the recent strategy of responding with a statement of our doctrine, and its historical roots, rather than trying to penetrate their convoluted logic.

Why they keep trying is beyond me. They (except for Parker) usually end up losing it and getting banned before gaining enough seniority to be able to start threads. For that, I am grateful.
 
I think he’s looking for prrof in the bible that contradicts LDS theology on this subject. To the best of my knowledge there is no explicit scripture that clarifies God creates a soul at the moment of conception.

I just skimmed 1 Corinthians and see no relevance to the question of when God creates a soul.
The Bible does not have to specifically address /contradict a statement in order for the statement to be false.

This is how it works…

What Joseph Smith did first and foremost was to establish doubt in what was currently believed. It was essential to do this first if he was going to be able to create the Mormon Church.
He did this by taking a universally accepted belief within Christianity that there is a God and that anything God says is true … He then stated that God had spoken directly to him (kind of like Moses) … and then … he used that innate belief in God’s word … to destroy every other foundation that had contained the belief… in God

He simply acted as if he were an oracle of God, with conviction, until people started to accept what he said.
… which was… that God had told him…all other forms of Christianity are fatally flawed and that the Bible as translated by those Christians was flawed, as well as incomplete … and that those flaws are misleading people. He assured everyone that would listen … that God was using him to fix all that.

All of that to say this…
Once he got people to accept this foundational premise … then he could then add or subtract pretty much anything at will… including the concept that we human beings existed as eternal “spirit beings”. … Joseph Smith simply established a system of belief that says … it doesnt matter if the Bible says it … just listen to me because God speaks to me and I deliver it to you.
 
I think any of those could do quite well just by writing a book based on internet boards over the past ten years. I suppose one of us humble still living will eventually have to do the job.

The most basic problem is that the LDS lead us around, trying to make us debate on their terms, ignoring all the debate that has gone on, even here, over that time-period. LDS beliefs have been refuted many times here, but these threads just keep going on without end. It reminds me of a flow-chart someone posted on one of these threads recently, but I didn’t find it.

I like the recent strategy of responding with a statement of our doctrine, and its historical roots, rather than trying to penetrate their convoluted logic.

Why they keep trying is beyond me. They (except for Parker) usually end up losing it and getting banned before gaining enough seniority to be able to start threads. For that, I am grateful.
Brother Parker often loses the debate. The difference is, he starts ignoring people he cannot out-debate and people he knows know the truth about LDS teachings
 
Brother Parker often loses the debate. The difference is, he starts ignoring people he cannot out-debate and people he knows know the truth about LDS teachings
Honestly, I would assume that Parker is someone who is sincerely trying to defend his beliefs, but finds it increasingly difficult to do so given that they defy logic, history, and the rest. But I think he really does believe in the teachings of the LDS Church, and is not just debating for fun.
The thing I dislike is that he does seem to avoid hard questions - he slips away often. But heresy, as St. Augustine once pointed out, is touted by intelligent men, not idiots.
 
Luke, Matthew, and Mark were approved, but there was concern that may be St. John the Evangelist did not author his writings. His were the last of the Evangelist that were verified. His writings to be approved by the Church were in use in the early decades of the 2nd century…the Book of Hebrews was not approved until after 200 A.D.

Mormons, as they begin now to look at the writings of the early church Fathers, as some Baptists are now beginning to do…have this hurdle to overcome that the Holy Spirit was at work…

And the effort by the Church to stay with form and intent of the Apostles was always there, as well as her intent to insure that only the Truth of Christ comprise the deposit of faith, involving many, many people, interchanging treatises, theories…and the Holy Spirit at work in the Magesterium, the teaching Magesterium of the Church which is the transmission of faith…again through the Holy Spirit.

Many people said many things, reflected on many things, but only those of the Holy Spirit were to be heeded and held in the deposit of faith as orthodoxy.

The musings of premortal existence, the nature of Christ as Man, as God, etc. were decided on back then. From the Nicene Creed to then the life of the church, the monasteries and their contribution to mankind, to then the foundation of science, the law, universities, the arts, economics…all this flowered from authentic doctrines.

Subsequently, in this angle…the great apostasy never happened.

Your answers will not be found in heresies but in the deposit of faith in the Catholic Church. Mormons will not find any justification for heresies here…but what they don’t understand either is how much fruit has come from the orthodoxy of faith of One Bread, One Body.
 
I would add that theology, as theidler wished Thomas to come back for a moment on CAF…St. Thomas…greatly flowered again in metaphysics…proving the existence of God…the one constancy in life.

Just today Stossel show had a program airing on ‘What Makes People Happy’. A guest was saying how people can win the lottery and have all their things paid off, buy new clothes, cars, and house…and then a year later be unhappy all over again.

A young fellow told our instructor that he found God in seeing Him as the only constant for us in this world. And it is in God alone that can fulfill all our desires and cause us to be happy…God the Cause, happiness and contentment the effect in the human soul.

As well as the development of theology, there also came about the development of spirituality…which in itself helped to define and understand and proclaim the dogma of Mary, assumed into heaven, Mary the Immaculate Conception, conceived without sin.

May be Mormons can learn more about faith by studying Mary. She is the great unknown and I never have read any post by any Mormon discussing Mary or pondering or wondering about her.

Learning about Mary…a woman conceived without sin could replace this pondering of pre mortal existence.

And in regards to the history of spirituality…Ralph Martin has a book out, most favored by Catholic seminarians…‘Fulfillment of All Desire’.

I don’t think any Mormon will go anywhere reading dissenters attempting to dismantle the history of Christianity by attacking the motives of the early Church and its authority. So soon after the event of Christ, common sense would dictate that the ecclesiastics were most inflamed about passing on the truth of Christ…just look at the passions between Catholics and Orthodox, both successors to the apostles.It is still going on 2000 years later…go to any cafeteria attended by clerics and you will observed heated exchanges over a disputed point in living out faith…how far can one go with truth…to becoming irrational…etc, etc., etc.
 
PART TWO OF TWO:

So we actually have no Church Father stating that the verses were added and we have Epiphanius admitting that the verses actually were there earlier and later were omitted. In either event, we have actual corruption of the scripture texts themselves, not merely divergent views on what they mean, and those corruptions occurred in the very earliest centuries after the death of the Apostles.
This is your conclusion, based on an assumption of sola scriptura, which Bart Ehrman is, even though he now claims to be atheist. Catholics are not and never have been. The Church is the means by which the Apostolic teachings are preserved and handed on. The Holy Spirit, as Jesus Christ promised, given to the Church at Pentecost, guides her, for one purpose and one purpose only, to bring people to Jesus Christ.

Ehrman’s purposes are the opposite, he seeks to bring people to atheism. So I too find it interesting, that of all the sources you cold look to regarding Holy Scripture, this is the source you have chosen.

Catholics are not sola scriptura and never have been. The early Church didn’t have a New Testament. They had successors to the Apostles who taught the Word of God. They shared Apostolic writings among the churches. Copying them, sharing them, teaching from them. Do you believe John the Beloved wrote the Gospel of John? Evidence is clearer for the writings of John, including the Gospels, emerging out of a Johannine community, that is, people who were followerss of John’s teaching and writing down what they had been taught. Do you believe the Holy Spirit is absent from this process?

Mormons and Evangelicals seem to have this idea that the NT fell out of the sky, directly from God’s hands.

In the end, all you are showing is your distrust of the Bible. I suggest you replace that frame of doubt with a sturdier frame that is based on trust In God, who promised to be with His Church, never leaving us as orphans.
 
Also StephenKent, if you look to your own scriptures will find that they have never been the same, word for word, even over the course of less than 100 years since they were first published. Your Pearl of Great Price came from a handful of writings that were collected and disseminated in England, became popular with people in UT, and was eventually released as scripture. Being modified again in the early 20th century.

Do you doubt the changes that were made? Perhaps you should contemplate on how it is that other Mormon denominations are using scripture that has significant differences to the UT LDS version.

In short, what you are attempting to use as some sort of evidence for corruption of the Word of God, can be used for your own scriptures which are less than 250 years old, with original published editions still in existence. Which published version is the the Word of God, and why? Do you believe the Lectures on Faith should be put back into the D&C?

Honestly, I don’t know how you can remain LDS with these doubts you have about scripture. Atheism is where your arguments are rooted.
 
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