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Lujack
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What have I done wrong?**Oh brother…I give up…**
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Peter_J
Guest
Correct.
And the Copts haven’t been in full communion with Rome since pretty much right after the Council of Chalcedon in 451 A.D.
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nbtb1348
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Don’t fool yourself. The writings on the catacomb walls that are enduring are the ones that are Christian. They are consistent with what the apostles taught and what the Holy Spirit illumined. No one in those caves were talking about Catholicism. They were talking about Jesus and the Way. They were talking about what God was doing to save mankind. The true church was the same then as it is today. It is wherever the Holy Spirit lives inside of a believer, and it is wherever those believers gather to worship, and to have community, and evangelize, and baptize and observe the Lord’s Supper. That has always been the chruch and always will be.**Lujack, have you ever been to Rome? The Catacombs where the writings on the wall are all Catholic in belief? This dates from the years right after Christ. St. Peter being the first bishop of Rome for 25 years and his successors 2,000 years later to date with an unbroken link, how St. Ignatius in the year 107 A.D. called the church “Catholic”?
The Orthodox WERE Catholic but they broke away in unity with the pope in the year 1054.
Christendom WAS ALL Catholic. Even the Reformers were ALL once Catholic…you seem to be missing something here…
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Peter_J
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Let me ask you this: Do you believe there’s such a thing as heresy? Arianism, for example?
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OneTrueCathApos
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Don’t fool myself?? I was there. In person. Seeing with my own eyes, the Eucharist displayed by a priest was one etching in the wall, the Blessed Mother is everywhere. You know what is the most common writing besides the Catholics who were hidden there? The Sacred Heart of Jesus. Everything was Catholic in belief back then and unless you see it with your own eyes, instead of misinterpreting things like you do your bible, you’ll get it.
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OneTrueCathApos
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Catholicism, from the beginning is still here. The Orthodox broke off from the link from Jesus to Catholicism and went their own way. Just like every other denomination there is. They are simply off-shoots from Cathoicism. There are even off-shoots from off-shoots.
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Lujack
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You are correct; almost every branch can in some way be traced back to Catholicism. That doesn’t mean that all of Europe was Catholic from the beginning, or even all of Christendom was Catholic from the beginning, which is what you claimed, and I disagreed with.
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OneTrueCathApos
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I disagree, it’s been Catholic from the beginning…some, maybe 4 people were something else, but they took it upon themselves to do that, just like today.
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Lujack
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Do you realize how prevalent the Arians were? What about the Copts? What about the Nestorians? What about the Pelagians?
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Benadam
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This act of giving birth is not attached to the curse to giving birth because it is attached to the person who delivers from the curse.
This thread of Woman’s journey is a sublime undercurrent in scriptures.
Woman----> Whore ( idolatry)----> spotless Bride
Eve experiences this journey as fallen woman becoming spotless bride. Mary experiences this journey as spotless bride perceived as fallen woman.
As a ‘new’ archetype replaces the old, what it means to be, in this case a woman changes as well. What it meant to be a woman with a fallen nature becomes what it means to be a woman renewed in Christ.
Mary, being a person who shared the most intimate earthly bond and divine ministry with a person who is divine and also the alpha and omega becomes the ultimate end for Eve and therefore all that Woman is meant to become.
St Mary suffers emotional pain no doubt as the possibilities of a life on the margins of society loom over her but is spared the physical pain of the curse that is attached to the sin committed by the archetype she replaces.
The nation of Israel like the former archetype of Woman suffers physical as well as emotional and spiritual pain as she waits and is being prepared to be able to deliver Our Saviour.
Eve, who experiences labor pains as Woman, is also tending toward holiness and becoming the new archetype
’ Woman’ is Eve tending toward the New Woman Mary who does not experience physical labor pains because she is giving birth to the physical manifestation of the Divine Person who takes that curse away.
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OneTrueCathApos
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What about the Catholics? More than these.
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Good_Fella
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They rejected the teaching authority of the Catholic Church and broke away from her Apostolic Tradition by espousing heretical doctrines of fallible private individuals. Let us take Arianism and Nestorianism as examples.
“Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith may not fail; and once you have turned back, you must strengthen your brothers.”
Luke 22, 31-32
The First Ecumenical Council of Nicea (A.D. 325) condemned Arianism. Arius, a priest in Alexandria, taught, according to his private interpretation of the Scriptures, that Jesus Christ was the first created being, that there was a time our Lord did not exist. The Pope, in communion with the College of Bishops, declared that Jesus was eternally begotten of the Father and of the same essence and substance of the Father (homoousios), which Arius denied. By the same infallible teaching authority, concerning the Apostolic faith, Pope Pius lX declared the Immaculate Conception a true revelation from God in the wake of the confusion stirred in Christendom by reformed Protestants who objected to and challenged this doctrine of the Church.
“For Dionysius, Bishop of Rome, having written also against those who said that the Son of God was a creature and a created thing, it is manifest that not now for the first time but from of old the heresy of the Arian adversaries of Christ has been anathematized by all. And, Dionysius, Bishop of Alexandria, making his defence concerning the letter he had written, appears in his turn as neither thinking as they allege, nor having held the Arian error at all.”
Athanasius, ‘Dionysius of Rome, 13’ (A.D. 352)
Nestorianism is basically a Christological heresy as well, but in this case the Mother of our Lord is implicated on account of her Divine Maternity. Nestorious, Bishop of Constantinople (428-31), objected to the Alexandrian invocation of Mary as ‘Theotokos’, meaning “God Bearer” or “Mother of God”. He erroneously believed that Mary was the mother of only the human person of Christ who in a sense co-inhabited the body of Jesus with the Divine Person. In other words, Mary was just the mother of Christ’s humanity. His notion is similar to that of modern Protestants who contend that Mary was the mother of only Christ’s human nature - as if mothers do not give birth to single persons who possess a nature like theirs. Anyway, Nestorious espoused the position of his mentor, Theodore of Mopsuestia, who held that Christ’s human nature was complete but was united with the Word made flesh by an external union effected by the overshadowing of Mary by the Holy Spirit. The Council of Ephesus (431) condemned Nestorious and his heretical teachings. Christ was pronounced true God and true man, having two distinct natures - one human and one divine - hypostatically joined in a single person. As a single person, who was born of the Virgin Mary, Christ is divine (The Son of Man claimed to have the authority to forgive sins.). Hence, the council reaffirmed and established once and for all the orthodox Christological and Marian doctrines of the One Apostolic Catholic Church: that the incarnate Christ is one Divine Person - not two persons each with his own nature - and Mary is His Mother. The Council of Chalcedon (451) ratified the definitive pronouncement given at Ephesus.
“Joining to yourself, therefore, the sovereign of our See, and assuming our place with authority, you will execute this sentence with accurate rigour: that within ten days, counted from the day of your notice, he shall condemn his [Nestorious’] false teachings in a written confession.”
*Pope Celestine [422-32], ‘To Cyril of Alexandria, Epistle 11’ (A.D. 430) *
“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Ignatius, ‘To the Ephesians, 7’ (c.A.D. 110)
Ignatius was a disciple of St. John the Evangelist. He implies Mary is the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the new Eve. In light of his recognition of her privileged and unique position with God, Ignatius must have believed that Mary was sinless and beyond the reach of the serpent.
A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
Songs 4, 12
“A good tree does not bear rotten fruit, nor does a rotten tree bear good fruit.”
Luke 6, 43
But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1 Corinthians 15, 20,
“For whereas the Word of God was without flesh, He took upon himself the holy flesh by the holy Virgin, and prepared a robe which he wove for Himself.”
Hyppolytus, ‘Treatise on Christ and ant-Christ, 4’ (A.D. 200)
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Lujack
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That’s correct, but that’s not what you said in the post that I was arguing against. You said that the entire world was Catholic for the first 1500 years. Will you admit that its not true?
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Lujack
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I know this; I’m Catholic myself, and I’m not an Arian, Nestorian, or a Copt. I’m just trying to make the point that there were always non-Catholic Christians out in the world.
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guanophore
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Thanks for yet another wonderful post, Good Fella! You have helped Lujack to prove his point that the whole world was most certainly not, Catholic!
However, anyone who was not Catholic, yet claimed to be “christian”, was a heretic.
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Good_Fella
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But there was still only One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church established by Christ and founded on Peter and the Apostles. The Arians and Nestorians broke away from communion with the Church. To this day there exist Arian and Nestorian churches.
PAX :winter:
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Lujack
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That’s correct, but that’s not the point I’m trying to refute. OneTrueCatholicApos claimed that all of Christendom was Catholic for the first 1500 years of the Catholic years, something that I’m trying to demonstrate is false.
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OneTrueCathApos
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**MOST IF NOT 98% OF THE PEOPLE BELIEVED THAT THE ONE HOLY CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH ESTABLISHED BY JESUS CHRIST. If you STILL want to dispute this, you need to go back and check your history. **
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guanophore
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Actually, I don’t think he said Christendom. If he did, you would not have much of an arguement, because that is a true statement. He said the “world”, which is clearly not the case. Everyone who claimed to be Christian who was not Catholic was a heretice, but there were plenty of infidels and pagans as well, and, as you pointed out, Muslims, Hindus, etc.
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Lujack
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98% of the people? The Goths and Vandals were almost all Arian, and they controlled large portions of Europe. An enormous portion of Christianity had fallen into Arianism. You need to check your history books; the Church faced serious crises during its early years.
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