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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
That’s because they broke off from the faith. The Catholic faith.
People were Catholic FIRST.
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People were Catholic FIRST.
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Lujack
Guest
Will you agree that it is not true that all of Europe was Catholic, and that it is also not true that not all Christians were Catholic during the time period between the Resurrection and the Reformation?That’s because they broke off from the faith. The Catholic faith.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
No, I will not agree. Protestanism didn’t see the light of day until the 15th century…you are Catholic, no?
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Lujack
Guest
I am Catholic, yes.
If you will not agree, then, and will insist that all of Europe and all of Christendom was Catholic, then what do you define these people as:
- The Slavic Pagans
- The Scandinavian Pagans
- The Arians
- The Pelagians
- The Copts
- The Nestorians
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Benadam
Guest
Is this discussion defining what christian means in qualitative terms or quantitative terms?
O
OneTrueCathApos
Guest
**These people either decided not to be Catholic, or broke off from Catholicism…:banghead: **
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nbtb1348
Guest
While you guys strut your historical knowledge, I will say again: The only way to get to the doctrine of The Immaculate Conception of Mary is for a man to make it up and call it dogma. It is nowhere taught in the Word of God. The few verses thrown up to string the case together are laughable. They are Scripture, and they mean what they mean, but they do not mean that! And repeating the mantra will not make it different, no matter how many times you say, “But our infalliable Pope told us so!!!”
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nbtb1348
Guest
I want to hear you say that there were no Christians who were non-Catholic.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
One last time I will say this:
**If any others were around back then, they were small cults based around a charismatic heretic and localized to a particular area.
Christ inaugurated the New Law by fulfilling the ceremonies and Sacrifices of the Pasch and instituting in their place the sacrifice of the New Law, THE HOLY MASS. As well he appointed His Disciples as the new ordained priesthood over the hereditary ministers of the Old Law.
He also set Himself as the new High Priest, with St. Peter to represent Him on earth in that capacity when He would ascend.
Christ built an entire institution with hierachy, ceremonies and doctrines. Christ activated Peter’s primacy as well as giving the church it’s mission to go and preach to all nations.
Catholicism was born then, 33 A.D., the date Christ died.
**So, I will just say that Catholicism was established by Jesus Christ and everything after that is a shoot-off.
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Lujack
Guest
I understand that. So you admit, though, that they were not Catholic? Therefore you also admit that there were non-Catholics in Europe, and in Christendom, prior to the Reformation?
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nbtb1348
Guest
And as you know, great Christian scholars and other men and women of God would say that the Roman church is simply one of many many “Christian” groups that trace their origins back to the authentic Universal (“Catholic”) Church that was obeying Christ. To the degree that ANY of those groups obey Christ, observe the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s supper, obey the Scriptures and are led by elders and deacons, those are New Testament churches. You know this is repeated over and over. And though you seem to be one who could never accept it, we believe it true and your argument not even an issue in light of the powerful evidences of God’s blessing worldwide.
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Benadam
Guest
Some would argue that the Holy Spirit operates through a conduit of flesh and that only one conduit finds it’s source in Christ.
The protestant laying on of hands isn’t able to distinguish it’self as a work of God. But a laying on of hands that can be traced back to the hands of God can.
Don’t all heresies seem to be attempts to sever the bond between God and man established in the beginning between God and man?
To attempt to sever the authentic memory of the face of Jesus?
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John is establishing this teaching founded on not just his own memory but the memory of the Church " we saw"
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To the degree that ANY of those groups obey Christ, observe the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s supper, obey the Scriptures and are led by elders and deacons, those are New Testament churches.
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In the measure one is obedient to an authentic memory of Christ one is able to do the above
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Obedience to Christ is relative to the memory of Him. The scriptures are written from that memory and are united to that memory. When St John wrote his gospel he was writing from not only his own memory but the memory of the Church.
Luke 1-70 As he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets, who are from the beginning:
71 Salvation from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us: 72 To perform mercy to our fathers, and to remember his holy testament,
The protestant laying on of hands isn’t able to distinguish it’self as a work of God. But a laying on of hands that can be traced back to the hands of God can.
Don’t all heresies seem to be attempts to sever the bond between God and man established in the beginning between God and man?
To attempt to sever the authentic memory of the face of Jesus?
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
John is establishing this teaching founded on not just his own memory but the memory of the Church " we saw"
**
**
To the degree that ANY of those groups obey Christ, observe the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s supper, obey the Scriptures and are led by elders and deacons, those are New Testament churches.
**
In the measure one is obedient to an authentic memory of Christ one is able to do the above
**
Obedience to Christ is relative to the memory of Him. The scriptures are written from that memory and are united to that memory. When St John wrote his gospel he was writing from not only his own memory but the memory of the Church.
Luke 1-70 As he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets, who are from the beginning:
71 Salvation from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us: 72 To perform mercy to our fathers, and to remember his holy testament,
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nbtb1348
Guest
Yes. And the great thing is that Jesus promised his Spirit would guide us into all truth and bring to mind everything He said. It is amazing to day how, say, Wycliffe Bible Translators can translate a portion of Scripture into a dialect that no one has ever reached before and as those people read, the same Holy Spirit generates faith and they believe and are saved. The Holy Spirit takes charge of all of this. And would we expect any less from the God of the universe?
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Good_Fella
Guest
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
1 Timothy 3, 15
The fullness of divine revelation is given to us by the Church. The reason why Christendom (notably Protestantism) is divided is because lone individuals (Arius, Nestorious, Luther, etc.) presume that they have the authority to interpret the Scriptures for themselves and that what they perceive to be true in the matter of faith and morals is the revealed truth. Pope Pius lX defined as dogma a doctrine that was universally held by the Church since earliest times and is scriptural. He consulted the world’s bishops, who gave their unanimous assent, before promulgating his Apostolic Constitution. He is not infallible, but the Holy Spirit has bestowed on him the charism of infallibilty by His grace in the exercise of the Divine Office through Apostolic Succession. Jesus promised his apostles, who include their valid successors, that he would send them the Paraclete to guide his Church in all truth and that the gates of hell would not prevail notwithstanding Satan’s efforts to sift our Lord’s apostles like wheat.
Unfortunately, people like yourself are blind to the spirit of the written word. The deposit of faith has always consisted of Scripture and Tradition. And Scripture must be interpreted in light of the Apostolic Tradition of the Church: the deeds wrought by God in the history of salvation. Scripture is infallible because Tradition is infallible. Scripture comes from Tradition. Church doctrines have never originated by first opening the Bible and meticulously analyzing its written content. The written word has always reflected first what the Church believes God has accomplished in the history of salvation. The Apostles believed, by the implicit testimony of Christ’s words and actions, that he was the Messiah, the Son of the living God. It was after our Lord had ascended into heaven and sent the Spirit of truth that they increased in knowledge and found confirmation of their beliefs in the Old Testament texts. The infant Church interpreted the Old Testament in light of Apostolic Tradition. What the Apostles had preached, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, was infallibly true before they consulted the written texts. Hence, in accord with Apostolic Tradition, we affirm that the Bible infallibly reveals that Christ is the Divine Messiah (The Jews beg to disagree.) and that Mary was granted the grace of her Immaculate Conception (Protestants beg to disagree.).
Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him."
Acts 8, 31-32
Scripture is infallible because Tradition is infallible. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception is a revealed Divine truth which belongs to the Deposit of Faith: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Scripture must be interpreted in light of Tradition by the Apostolic teaching authority of the one universal Church in matters of faith and morals. Individual competent-souls like yourself presume you can fully understand the written word without having to appeal to the Apostolic teaching authority. Follow the example of the Ethiopian eunuch who invited Philip to sit with him in his chariot.
I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them down to you.
*1 Corinthians 11, 2 *
“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than an impudent and blasphemous sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth…proceeding on their way foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding the truth. It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom [Tradition], and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures.”
Irenaeus, ‘Against Heresies 5, 20:2’ (A.D. 180)
“When heretics show us the canonical Scriptures, in which every Christian believes and trusts, they seem to be saying: ‘Lo, he is in the inner rooms [the word of truth]’ (Mt 24:6). But we must not believe them, nor leave the original tradition of the Church, nor believe otherwise than we have been taught by succession in the Church of God.”
Origen, ‘Homilies on Matthew, Homily 46’ (ante A.D. 254)
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Benadam
Guest
That guidance is not independent of an authentic memory of Jesus. It’s not as if someone who has no connection with the community that keeps the memory of Jesus true can be led to the entire breadth of Truth that passage alludes to.
In the measure the memory of Jesus is kept true is the measure the Holy Spirit can remind us properly and lead us to deeper understanding. Understanding that was too much for us in the beginning requires an authentic memory of what was understood before.
The dialect never reached is only part of what is necessary to connect to scriptures because scriptures themselves are only a symbolic expression of the memory of the church.
No understanding of language or of the mental environment of the time scriptures were written is going to be able to replace the role of an authentic memory of the face of Jesus.
I’m sure you would agree that the Holy Spirit requires us to have an authentic memory of what Jesus taught in order to operate through memory, or better said, to remind, so that he can lead us to a deeper faith.
O
OneTrueCathApos
Guest
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MDK
Guest
No matter how many times you or anyone else will deny the truth, the truth is still just that… the truth. It’s bigger than you, so you can’t define the truth. We just show how much of it we know, accept, and promote… or how much we don’t know, deny, and denigrate. I suggest you’re more part of the latter in regard to the Immaculate Conception, but not limited to this.
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guanophore
Guest
The first part, yes that is a true statement. However, all Christians were Catholic. Those who were not were considered to have left the faith.
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guanophore
Guest
I will not say I 'strut" but I do affirm that studying history made me Catholic.
Such a statement is narrow minded and short sighted. You would have to apply the same principle to the hypostatic union, the Trinity, and the canon of scripture. None of these are found in Scripture. None of them are “man made” either. They are the result of the HS guiding the Church “into all truth” just as Jesus promised.
The Bible does not “teach” which is one reason. Second, the Word of God is not limited to the Bible. Using the criteria “if I don’t see it in my bible it is man made” is absurd. By that criteria, you have to throw out the bible itself, since it nowhere contains the list of books that belong therein.
I will easily conceded that this doctrine emerges primarily out of Sacred Tradition. this is not a problem for me, because the canon of scripture comes from the same place.
Same with the Trinity.
The gospel according to nbtb.
I don’t believe anyone here actually said that.
However, you are right. Unless you can acknowledge the infallible nature of the Church, nothing said to you about matters of faith an morals will do much good.
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guanophore
Guest
As you are fond of pointing out, saying such things, no matter how much, or how loud, does not make them true.
The Catholic Church is not “Roman”.
This is a nice non-biblical, non-apostolic platitude.
Of it makes you feel better to believe it, then more power to you!
Does it not concern you at all that this is not what the Apostles believed and taught?
God’s spirit is indeed powerful, and does work in these ecclesiastical communities who, through no fault of their own, are separated from the faith founded by Jesus.
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