scripture and homosexuality

[revelations]

this…

… is ridiculous

 

[Elric]

this…

… is ridiculous

Which part exactly?

 

[Eden]

since homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals they are equal and should be afforded all the same rights and privileges.

People bond with their pets and children, too. How does “bonding” = it’s morally acceptable to have intercourse with?

revelations:

this…

… is ridiculous

A perfect summary of this thread!

 

[revelations]

Which part exactly?

Oh i dunno…the part about people accusing the church of twisting the words and meanings of the scriptures…

… and then proposing totally ludicrous ideas based on their “true” reading of scripture.

“Cain killed Abel, so if i wanted to and was given over a spirit of killing i can kill my brother if i wanted to also because it’s in the bible!”

stuff like that

 

[D_M]

since homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals they are equal and should be afforded all the same rights and privileges.

is your inderstanding " you and i have different genitals and can procreate so we should marry."

no its " we are mutually attracted to each other, and mutually love, trust, and respect each other and want to share and support each other in the joys and trials of life. let us marry and with this devotion that we have for each other have a family.

the procreation thing is such a none issue because already this planet is over populated. even with the problems of drinking water , disease and pollution, can you imagine what problems china would be having if they hadnt instituted the one child policy.

but in terms of procreation look at all the people that god wiped out who were procreating very diligently.

no… god is interested in the heart. everything in both testaments points to that.

it amazes me that the catholic church still has one foot firmly planted in the old covenant.

hebrews says what is deemed old is obsolete and will soon pass away.

the prohibitions and regulations were to create a seperate people.

but in the new covenant of christ are seperateness is christ living in us.

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

who does christ live in ?

is it those because they follow regulation?

jesus said you will recognize them by their fruit… fruit of the spirit.

this can be ascertained thru fellowship, not by observance of regulation… by the fellowship of 1john1

as paul said we are now led by and serve of the spirit,

does the catholic church serve thru observance of regulation.(regulation of divorce , homosexuality, etc?

in these are there any discussions of witness of spirit, or fruit of the spirit(gal5)

loving ones neighbor as oneself is the basis for all relationships of believers… either to believers, or non-believers. that is why it is the summation of all the law.

it is in friend to friend, mother to daughter, ethnic to ethnic, husband to wife, wife to wife, neighbor to neighbor.

My understanding is that all sexual activity which a person willfully pursues for their own personal pleasure is wrong. Man and woman, woman and woman, or simply man by himself… they are never to seek it for their own selfish pleasure.

Christ lives in his disciples.

Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

And yes! He cannot live in them if they do not obey his commandments (which you seem to call ‘regulation’).

1 John 2:4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him

Christ instituted the church to serve humans, and yes a primary function of that service is to guide our consciences to do His will.

The church teaches that homosexual relations have no true loving or sexual complentarity to it. That is to say, even when there is a gay couple who truly do love each other, the act of sex between them is not done for love’s sake but for pleasure’s sake and that is wrong because we should not be seeking after our own selfish pleasure.

 

[feetxxxl]

“My understanding is that all sexual activity which a person willfully pursues for their own personal pleasure is wrong. Man and woman, woman and woman, or simply man by himself… they are never to seek it for their own selfish pleasure.”

< catholics are allowed to use the rythym method of contraception. its limits are only that it is an imperfect way of determing ovulation. if there was a perfect way to determine it, then there would be no question to the possibility of pregnancy…and it is only a matter of time before science comes up with one. the essence of having sexual intimacy is the same. the couple is actively pursueing a behavior of pleasure that discourages any possiblity of procreation. the only limitation is the imperfection of the monitoring system not the intent of pursueing pleasure. and surely god is not limited by what humans chose or dont chose to do.

Christ lives in his disciples.

Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

And yes! He cannot live in them if they do not obey his commandments (which you seem to call ‘regulation’)

jesus commandment is to love. 1cor13 makes that clear. when it says that anything that is without love(the love that is god, the love that god first loved us with) is nothing and gains nothing. ergo… the three commandments of love

.

1 John 2:4 He who says “I know him” but disobeys his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him

5But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love** is truly made COMPLETE in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him[c] to make him stumble.

1john4: 7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son** into the world that we might live through him. 10This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins. 11Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made COMPLETE in us.

Christ instituted the church to serve humans, and yes a primary function of that service is to guide our consciences to do His will.

the church…bride of christ, the body of believers who share the same inheritance, who the triune god lives in, and thru whom christ manifests his authority.

The church teaches that homosexual relations have no true loving or sexual complentarity to it. That is to say, even when there is a gay couple who truly do love each other, the act of sex between them is not done for love’s sake but for pleasure’s sake and that is wrong because we should not be seeking after our own selfish pleasure.

when you say “the church teaches” arent you saying rome, the administrative center of the catholic church. are you saying that the adminstrative center of the catholic church speaks for the worldwide body of believers. how is that possible? if we are now led and serve of the spirit. then it is the spirit of christ that speaks for the body of believers. that means that what the administrative center says may or may not be of the spirit of christ. this is true of not just the catholic church but any church.

1 thess. " test everything keep the good." surely because christ lives in us, as believers, we called to own what we witness in our heart thru the one who lives in us. the teachings of the church are to assist us in doing this. whether they do or not that is another question? but surely the relationship with the one who lives in us is not trumped by them…****

 

[musicmantg11]

I found it in the bible. I’m sure they’re many other links to this question, but this is one of my answers.

“A man shall leave his father and mother and be joined with his wife, and the two shall become flesh.” Matthew19:5

 

[rusty20]

anything that is in writing requires interpretation, assisted by the holy spirit to see the spiritual embodiment behind the words.

I agree, but what you are doing is taking passages that clearly state that homosexual acts are intrinsically sinful and claiming that the passages do not state that. Call me stupid, but that seems like flawed interpretation to me…

But I won’t bother arguing further, you obviously are blind to the words of the Bible.

 

[feetxxxl]

which scripture, where is it. i gave an explanation in the very beginning. which one of the scriptures referred to is about homosexuality human bonding? my point is that none are.

are you saying the hedonistic orgiastic spring break rituals is about heterosexual bonding? then no wionder the 50% divorce rate.

 

[Elric]

Oh i dunno…the part about people accusing the church of twisting the words and meanings of the scriptures…

… and then proposing totally ludicrous ideas based on their “true” reading of scripture.

“Cain killed Abel, so if i wanted to and was given over a spirit of killing i can kill my brother if i wanted to also because it’s in the bible!”

stuff like that

So why not just ignore the thread instead of fanning the flames?

Oh and I dont remember seeing that quote anywhere.

 

[LittleDeb]

I found it in the bible. I’m sure they’re many other links to this question, but this is one of my answers.

“A man shall leave his father and mother and be joined with his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” Matthew19:5

This is THE answer in a nutshell. I did fix your missing word, though.

Please be aware that this scripture will continue to be ignored and twisted. No one has yet explained how two men or two women can be ONE FLESH.

 

[feetxxxl]

This is THE answer in a nutshell. I did fix your missing word, though.

Please be aware that this scripture will continue to be ignored and twisted. No one has yet explained how two men or two women can be ONE FLESH.

this is one possiblity statement. a one flesh relationship is about sexual intimacy…see paul’s explanation about being one flesh with a prostitute.

“will be joined with his wife.” is an indication of relationship. how can a homosexual have a husband wife relationship with someone he is not bonded to. scripture indicates a husband wife bonding.

how can there be one flesh bonding with anyone other than the one someone has attraction to. an attraction that is much more than merely sexual.

someone once said that when one is sexually intimate with another person they are actually in bed with four other people…the parents of both people.

and again we are talking about a bonded relationship where the sexual intimacy is an affirmation and an expression of the devotion in the relationship.

 

[LilyM]

this is one possiblity statement. a one flesh relationship is about sexual intimacy…see paul’s explanation about being one flesh with a prostitute.

“will be joined with his wife.” is an indication of relationship. **how can a homosexual have a husband wife relationship with someone he is not bonded to. **scripture indicates a husband wife bonding.

how can there be one flesh bonding with anyone other than the one someone has attraction to. an attraction that is much more than merely sexual.

someone once said that when one is sexually intimate with another person they are actually in bed with four other people…the parents of both people.

and again we are talking about a bonded relationship where the sexual intimacy is an affirmation and an expression of the devotion in the relationship.

You said it - a homosexual cannot EVER have a husband/wife relationship with ANYONE of the same sex. It’s up to you to prove that scripture’s plain words about husbands and wives apply to ANYONE other than … errm … husbands and wives! Which you have singularly failed to do.

 

[R_McGeddon]

**“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination.” - *Leviticus 18:22 ***

That’s strange, in a forum an another site, you said Catholics weren’t bound by Levitical law. So why are you quoting it now?

**“The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so [are] abomination unto the Lord thy God.” - *Deuteronomy 22:5 ***

I’ll also bet you don’t follow Deuteronomy strictly either!

 

[wisdomseeker]

since homosexuals bond in the same spirit as heterosexuals they are equal and should be afforded all the same rights and privileges.

is your inderstanding " you and i have different genitals and can procreate so we should marry."

no its " we are mutually attracted to each other, and mutually love, trust, and respect each other and want to share and support each other in the joys and trials of life. let us marry and with this devotion that we have for each other have a family.

the procreation thing is such a none issue because already this planet is over populated. even with the problems of drinking water , disease and pollution, can you imagine what problems china would be having if they hadnt instituted the one child policy.

but in terms of procreation look at all the people that god wiped out who were procreating very diligently.

no… god is interested in the heart. everything in both testaments points to that.

it amazes me that the catholic church still has one foot firmly planted in the old covenant.

hebrews says what is deemed old is obsolete and will soon pass away.

the prohibitions and regulations were to create a seperate people.

but in the new covenant of christ are seperateness is christ living in us.

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

who does christ live in ?

is it those because they follow regulation?

jesus said you will recognize them by their fruit… fruit of the spirit.

this can be ascertained thru fellowship, not by observance of regulation… by the fellowship of 1john1

as paul said we are now led by and serve of the spirit,

does the catholic church serve thru observance of regulation.(regulation of divorce , homosexuality, etc?

in these are there any discussions of witness of spirit, or fruit of the spirit(gal5)

loving ones neighbor as oneself is the basis for all relationships of believers… either to believers, or non-believers. that is why it is the summation of all the law.

it is in friend to friend, mother to daughter, ethnic to ethnic, husband to wife, wife to wife, neighbor to neighbor.

Are you saying that Jesus came and aproves the sins of man. that the old covenant is no longer in effect therefore we can do what we please as long as we do charity works?

the new convenant abolish sins, and no longer we are sinners? is at what you telling us here?

*“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… *

 

[D_M]

the church…bride of christ, the body of believers who share the same inheritance, who the triune god lives in, and thru whom christ manifests his authority.
if we are now led and serve of the spirit. then it is the spirit of christ that speaks for the body of believers. that means that what the administrative center says may or may not be of the spirit of christ. this is true of not just the catholic church but any church.
1 thess. " test everything keep the good." surely because christ lives in us, as believers, we called to own what we witness in our heart thru the one who lives in us. the teachings of the church are to assist us in doing this. whether they do or not that is another question? but surely the relationship with the one who lives in us is not trumped by them…

I think you misunderstand: the rhythm method does not give licence for couple’s to pursue sex for personal pleasure. When a man and a woman are joined in wedlock the sex they have is supposed to be in fact sacred and is truly a form of love between each other. The same is not true of sex between homosexual persons in which there is no true loving or sexual complentarity, and in which sex is always done for pleasure.

Now it is possible (and certanly occurs) for married couple’s to pursue sex for personal pleasure and this remains wrong; and if you think I am making up this part of catholic teaching I will quote Pope and doctor of the church St Gregory on exactly this issue:

The married must be admonished to bear in mind that they are united in wedlock for the purpose of procreation, and when they abandon themselves to immoderate intercourse, they transfer the occasion of procreation to the service of pleasure. Let them realize that though they do not then pass beyond the bonds of wedlock, yet in wedlock they exceed its rights. Wherefore, it is necessary that they should efface by frequent prayer what they befoul in the fair form of intercourse by the admixture of pleasure.
[Regula Pastoralis, Part III, Caput xxvii]

I’m pleased to see you quoting scripture in your arguments, please keep it up, it is welcome sign from others who would argue against church teaching on this issue from a purely secular perspective

As catholics we hold that the papacy is the continuance of the mission of Simon Peter on this Earth, unto whom the Lord said:

Matthew 16:17-19 And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Now if this Peter person was given these powers by Christ, do you not think that your argument that we are simply to rely on what the Spirit says to only us as individuals is in contradiction with this? For why would Christ tell us that upon Peter this church and built and has been given this power of binding and loosing (ie. the teaching authority of the church) when we were in fact not supposed to look for any other authority but what we think and feel?

But even so… allow me to humour your teaching about relying only on what the Spirit says within me and show you why you are incorrect:

I am a christian. I call Jesus my Lord and I know that I am not lieing, and according to scripture I can only do this by the power of the Holy Spirit:

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to undertsand that no one speaking by the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus be cursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except by the Holy Spirit

Now if this Spirit dwells in me, and I am to follow what my heart, moved by this Spirit thinks and feels I therefore say the following: In my heart I do not believe sex between homosexual persons is a true form of love or charity (which you correctly appear to have stated is what the law requires); rather I think it is a selfish lustful pastime by a number of men and women who seek their own personal pleasure against the dictates of charity.

1 Corinthians 13:4-5 Love is patient and kind; love is not jealous or boastful; it is not arrogant or rude. Love does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful

Love cannot ever be selfish, but in my heart, moved by the Spirit I think that homosexual activity is selfish and therefore is contrary to love.

Now… I have done just as you say, to listen to the Spirit of one who dwells in me…are you now proposing that I should not listen to this Spirit but instead let myself be trumped by an external authority such as yourself?

 

[wisdomseeker]

“My understanding is that all sexual activity which a person willfully pursues for their own personal pleasure is wrong. Man and woman, woman and woman, or simply man by himself… they are never to seek it for their own selfish pleasure.”

< catholics are allowed to use the rythym method of contraception. its limits are only that it is an imperfect way of determing ovulation. if there was a perfect way to determine it, then there would be no question to the possibility of pregnancy…and it is only a matter of time before science comes up with one. the essence of having sexual intimacy is the same. the couple is actively pursueing a behavior of pleasure that discourages any possiblity of procreation. the only limitation is the imperfection of the monitoring system not the intent of pursueing pleasure. and surely god is not limited by what humans chose or dont chose to do.

Christ lives in his disciples.

Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

And yes! He cannot live in them if they do not obey his commandments (which you seem to call ‘regulation’)

jesus commandment is to love. 1cor13 makes that clear. when it says that anything that is without love(the love that is god, the love that god first loved us with) is nothing and gains nothing. ergo… the three commandments of love

 

[feetxxxl]

Are you saying that Jesus came and aproves the sins of man. that the old covenant is no longer in effect therefore we can do what we please as long as we do charity works?

the new convenant abolish sins, and no longer we are sinners? is at what you telling us here?

*“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… *

not every prohibition in the levitical was of itself a sin.

 

[wisdomseeker]

not every prohibition in the levitical was of itself a sin.

does it includes homosexul behavior? not being a sin?

 

[feetxxxl]

does it includes homosexul behavior? not being a sin?

read my opening statement…then read message #358
page 24.