scripture and homosexuality

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So tell me then. What does the word arsenokoitai mean? St. Paul condemns that behavior.

Eden pointed out in post 295
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3712680&postcount=295
that it literally translates “men sexual relations”

To be able to back up your claims above, you must be able to prove that translation wrong.

Good question. Just keep in mind that Saint Paul was kind of a joke. He also condemned people who were “effeminate”. He also said homosexuals were “worthy of death”. Do YOU think that homosexuals are “worthy of death”?​

Arsenokoitai is typically translated as “abusers of themselves” or “sodomites”, both of which are vague, and at the very least do not seem applicable to a long-term, loving gay relationship. (Even the reference to Sodom refers to an aggressive, impersonal sex-act, not one of mutual care, respect and fidelity).​

Arsenokoitai is a combination of “man” and “bedder”. A literal translation is “man-bedder”. The question is whether or not the word refers to those who bed men, or men who bed. Or, does it refer to something else? For example, look at the title “Lady-killer.” Does it mean someone who kills ladies? Or a lady who kills? Or something else?

From this approach, it is impossible to know what Paul meant.

Another method of trying to figure out what Paul meant was to look at context. However, the word appears in a vice list, so there is no context to work with.

So we are stuck with a compound word with multiple possible definitions, first-time use, without context. That is very far from “clear.”

youdebate.com/cgi-bin/scarecrow/topic.cgi?forum=18&topic=789
 
you are talking about learned negative behavior. i would be interested as how you came to know this knowledge about ALL the homosexuals you have ever known in your life. is thisw because you met them in an environment where people congregated to make hook ups etc?
Nope. Never was invovled in that nonsense myself.
consider meeting them in churches that support homosexuality. who worship christ and share your same inheritance.
I did meet some in Churches. There was no difference.
 
So tell me then. What does the word arsenokoitai mean? St. Paul condemns that behavior.

Eden pointed out in post 295
forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=3712680&postcount=295
that it literally translates “men sexual relations”

To be able to back up your claims above, you must be able to prove that translation wrong.
You should probably read this thread then, that isnt the translation arsenokoitai. Its been shown already to mean something else in earlier posts with evidence to support it.

There was also the point that Paul could have used other words that already existed to express that he meant “homosexual acts”, but chose to invent a word.

Personally I would have thought that he would have wanted to be very clear with what he was writing, considering what he was writing and the intention of his writings, rather than making up words to express something that could already be expressed with the words available.
 
You should probably read this thread then, that isnt the translation arsenokoitai. Its been shown already to mean something else in earlier posts with evidence to support it.

There was also the point that Paul could have used other words that already existed to express that he meant “homosexual acts”, but chose to invent a word.

Personally I would have thought that he would have wanted to be very clear with what he was writing, considering what he was writing and the intention of his writings, rather than making up words to express something that could already be expressed with the words available.
Romans 1 is pretty blasted clear.
 
You should probably read this thread then, that isnt the translation arsenokoitai. Its been shown already to mean something else in earlier posts with evidence to support it.

There was also the point that Paul could have used other words that already existed to express that he meant “homosexual acts”, but chose to invent a word.

Personally I would have thought that he would have wanted to be very clear with what he was writing, considering what he was writing and the intention of his writings, rather than making up words to express something that could already be expressed with the words available.
I’ve been reading from the beginning thank you. Also I have been googling definitions from all sides.

No one has been able to deny that coitus in fact STILL means “sexual relations.” Considering that the word “gay” itself has changed definition in a mere 2 generations the arguments of bed as a definition for koitai don’t hold much ground. At absolute least case koitai means what takes place in a bed ie sleeping or sexual relations. So in that context St. Paul was either condemning sleeping together or having sex together…Lo and behold both of the terms are STILL used interchangeably at times.

It is funny how people have to twist St. Paul’s words and undermine his writings to get to a point that homosexual acts are fine…Kind of reminds me how a certain former Catholic monk had to call St. James’ writing “an epistle of straw” to make his point work too. Hmmm :hmmm:
 
Just to set you straight: First of all, you state that a married man and woman should always have the priority when adopting a child.
Indeed. 👍
Obviously, this is not your prerogative. If I owned an adoption agency, then it should be my choice. If I decided that a gay couple was the better choice, who are you to tell me different? The communistic mindset wants to engineer society based upon “studies”. Adoption is too important to rely on your one-size-fits-all pronouncements.
Not if you live in Florida. It’s illegal for homosexuals to adopt there. 👍
No human, for instance, would ever claim that a gay couple cannot necessarily rear children better than all hetero couples.
Every child deserves to be raised in the home of a loving, married mother and father. Unfortunately, not all children will be fortunate to have this family structure, but this is the ideal and superior environment for a child to grow. All other forms of family structure are in some way inferior.
Are you going to cite studies at me. Fine, but I don’t have to believe or “abide by” the studies.
It’s common sense that a child raised with a loving married mother and father has the best environment in which to grow and reach their fullest potential. Every child needs a mother. Every child needs a father. A “female figure in their life” living outside the home is not equivalent to having a “mother”.
Are you going to use the force of government to persuade me? ------------------
Apparently, it’s legal to make these parameters. Look at Florida.
Secondly, I’m not surprised you didn’t cite the studies that refute your claim. The fact is that the vast consensus of all the studies shows that children of same-sex parents do as well as children whose parents are heterosexual in every way.
“A Difference Worth Embracing: Why Mother-Father Couples are Superior to Gay Couples When it Comes to Adoption”:

afajournal.org/2006/june/0606marriage.html
This is not surprising to anyone who has ever known more that a few gay families. I personally think that ALL the studies are unreliable because homosexuality in this country is still in a taboo status which skews the polling results.
“Dailey says there is a ‘well-established and growing body of evidence showing that both mothers and fathers provide unique and irreplaceable contributions to the raising of children.’ That is, mothers and fathers parent differently.”
That being said, are you going to tell a family that they are sub-optimal if one of the partners is eccentric, or strange, or gay, bisexual, etc. Do only optimal families get your seal of approval?
“The difference between mother and father… is a difference worth embracing as a society. Kids deserve the best, and a mom and a dad best fit the bill.”
Doesn’t it make sense that someone reared by homos would be less likely to grow up being a bigot?
(T)here is evidence that kids raised in same-sex households are more likely to drift towards the sexual orientation of their gay parents.

Dr. Judith Stacey, a sociologist at the University of Southern California and a supporter of gay adoption, admitted in a 2002 Primetime Thursday (ABC) interview that research had shown that children raised by homosexual couples were more likely to have “either considered or had one same-sex experience” than children raised by heterosexuals.

The study to which Stacey referred (Fiona Tasker, Susan Golombok, “Adults Raised as Children in Lesbian Families,” American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 4/95) actually found that 24% of children raised by lesbian mothers had “been involved in a same-gender sexual relationship,” while none of the kids who had been raised by heterosexuals reported such same-sex activity.

The rest is here:

afajournal.org/2006/june/0606marriage.html
 
I’ve been reading from the beginning thank you. Also I have been googling definitions from all sides.
From the statement that you made, that didnt seem to be the case.

You have probably read this link, seeming as you have been googling definations, but I thought that I would provide anyway. Its an interesting read:

homepage.ntlworld.com/pharseas.world/PaulineLists.html
No one has been able to deny that coitus in fact STILL means “sexual relations.” Considering that the word “gay” itself has changed definition in a mere 2 generations the arguments of bed as a definition for koitai don’t hold much ground. At absolute least case koitai means what takes place in a bed ie sleeping or sexual relations. So in that context St. Paul was either condemning sleeping together or having sex together…Lo and behold both of the terms are STILL used interchangeably at times.
???

This makes no sense at all.
It is funny how people have to twist St. Paul’s words and undermine his writings to get to a point that homosexual acts are fine…Kind of reminds me how a certain former Catholic monk had to call St. James’ writing “an epistle of straw” to make his point work too.
I really dont understand where this comes from.

I didnt twist any words, I never claimed to know what Paul meant with his created term of “arsenokoitai”. I have stated time and again that the meaning is not clear, so I dont really understand how you can make such an accusation.

I would also like to know how you think that I undermined his writings?

Is suggesting that he should have been clearer and that he should have stuck with existing words instead of inventing one somehow undermining his writings?

There were existing words that he could have used to express “homosexual acts” if that is what he meant, he didnt use them. If he meant “homosexual acts”, then why not use existing words/terms to describe that in his writings so that it was clear for all?
 
From the statement that you made, that didnt seem to be the case.

You have probably read this link, seeming as you have been googling definations, but I thought that I would provide anyway. Its an interesting read:

homepage.ntlworld.com/pharseas.world/PaulineLists.html
Yes, I did read that link. I disagree with conclusion. Not a big surprise right? He infers that St. John was referring to greed when he used the word, but the context says otherwise. And he says St. Paul was using it differently and that it did not apply to homosexual activity. Says who? Says random internet guy who wants the Church to change her teachings.
This makes no sense at all.
I was merely pointing out that koitai means what takes place in a bed, not what had been asserted here that it meant the object of a bed. It is used to express both sleeping and sexual intercourse. “Sleeping together” is still a euphemism for sexual intercourse, so the definition of koitai hasn’t changed much. That was my point.
I really dont understand where this comes from.
I didnt twist any words, I never claimed to know what Paul meant with his created term of “arsenokoitai”. I have stated time and again that the meaning is not clear, so I dont really understand how you can make such an accusation.
I would also like to know how you think that I undermined his writings?
Is suggesting that he should have been clearer and that he should have stuck with existing words instead of inventing one somehow undermining his writings?
There were existing words that he could have used to express “homosexual acts” if that is what he meant, he didnt use them. If he meant “homosexual acts”, then why not use existing words/terms to describe that in his writings so that it was clear for all?
Ok. I’ll bite. What was the word in Paul’s time that meant ‘homosexual acts?’ Would everyone he spoke with in each different city have known those words? Were they descriptive enough? The Church has coined new words since day one to express things that were previously not known or misunderstood. To coin a new word for clarity doesn’t seem strange to me. If arsenokoitai was coined, then his reasoning must have been strong.

I’m sorry if it sounds accusatory to say you seem to be undermining St. Paul, but that is still how it appears. I have appreciated your devil’s advocate in this thread, but it rings a lot of Sola Scriptura. St. Paul’s writing only appears unclear when we try to interpret it without the Church. The links I’ve been reading seem to compare a lot of bad translations of scripture. I will be the first to admit that there are some horribly wrong translations out there. Why on earth would I abandon a very clear understanding of scripture by the Church for sloppy translations by people broken away? Or I guess my other question is, why are you?
 
then please explain what lie was exchanged for what truth and how was what entity of creation worshipped and served so that certain individuals were given over to homosexuality.
If you read the passage and you understand it in light of the rest of the scriptures, its pretty blasted clear that St. Paul is talking about idols.
 
to say that americans have contrary views about homosexuality is an understatement. the below survey by lifeway(sbc) has the most detailed breakdown that i have ever seen. its just another survey but:

what group would you think was one of the biggest supporters?

what group would you think was one of the biggest non supporters?

transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=49472&cat=15
 
am i wrong in thinking that the baptist and catholic leaderships were unified in their position on homosexuality, so much so that neither would have published anything that didnt identify that unity?
 
to say that americans have contrary views about homosexuality is an understatement. the below survey by lifeway(sbc) has the most detailed breakdown that i have ever seen. its just another survey but:

what group would you think was one of the biggest supporters?

what group would you think was one of the biggest non supporters?

transworldnews.com/NewsStory.aspx?id=49472&cat=15
What’s your point? The teachings of the Catholic Church are eternal truths that will never be changed due to cultural trends or opinion polls. The actual questions posed were not provided. I think it’s pretty obvious that, depending on the way the questions were phrased, the results were skewed. For instance, if they asked “Is homosexuality a sin”? A Catholic would say “no”. The orientation is not the sin, the physical act of homosexual sex is. People with homosexual feelings are called to a celibacy, so they do not sin. So, this is very likely a factor that skewed the results.
 
Unlike other denominations, the catholic church does not sway its teaching to meet the demands of the day. That is the one thing that made my blood boil as an Anglican…

… and it’s the reason i’m catholic today. 2000 years of un-changed moral teaching.
 
Sacred Tradition and the Ordinary Magisterium have already clearly identified homosexual behavior as sinful. No corroboration from scripture is necessary.
 
What’s your point? The teachings of the Catholic Church are eternal truths that will never be changed due to cultural trends or opinion polls. The actual questions posed were not provided. I think it’s pretty obvious that, depending on the way the questions were phrased, the results were skewed. For instance, if they asked “Is homosexuality a sin”? A Catholic would say “no”. The orientation is not the sin, the physical act of homosexual sex is. People with homosexual feelings are called to a celibacy, so they do not sin. So, this is very likely a factor that skewed the results.
i believe the question was homosexual behavior.
 
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