Scripture and Mary

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What if Scripture was explicit concerning the perpetual virginity of Mary? How would that change Christianity according to Protestant theology? Would that lessen the role of Christ? Why are Protestants so up in arms concerning this teaching??
Well, I’d imagine they’s treat it the same as they treat the Scriptures in which Jesus says “My body is true food and my blood is true drink; unless you eat my Body and drink my blook there is no life in you”. What do they do with this? They ignore it.
 
did she have children or not?

these verses imply she did.mathew 1:24-25
from three diffrent bibles!

Holy bible NRSV catholic edition : 24 when Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife, 25 but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus. other ancient
authorites read her firstborn son
*

Holy bible NIV YouthWalktm devotional bible
by walk thru the bible ministries Atlanta georgia
24 When joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 but he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name of jesus.

THe king james bible verion 1611 translation:

**{1:24}Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel
of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
{1:25} And knew her not till she had brought forth her
firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
**

knew in English meant to have sex. dictionary.com 7. Archaic. to have sexual intercourse with.

true that marriage is bound by intercourse, but it would have been stated at least in one of th bibles that the marrige was complete, rather than this. the closest is the NIV, and even that can refer to sex, union dictionary.com 8. the act of uniting or an instance of being united in marriage or sexual intercourse: an ideal union; an illicit union.

next we have her offspring?

in mathew 13:55-13:66 this is stated (all the bibles are the same just referred to in a different order)

KJV bible first

{13:55} Is not this the carpenter’s son? is
not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and
Joses{sic}, and Simon, and Judas? {13:56} And his sisters, are
they not all with us? Whence then hath this [man] all these
things?


youthwalk bible second

"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56 Arent all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

Catholic bible NRSV.
55 "is not this the carpenter’s son? iIs not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all this ?"

Are these the disciples or brothers, if so , why not refer to them as his followers, and the sisters, i am not familiar with any woman following him around insomuch as to be referenced as followers like the disciples?
***Hi, zmyr!

…the problem is that Scriptures do not unequivocally state that Mary had other children…

The problem exists only because non-Catholics desire to find fault at the Church’s Teachings… Scriptures state that she did not know a man till she conceived Christ… would that mean that as soon as Mary’s womb would show that she was preganant she would begin sexual relations with Joseph or was it after the presentation at the Temple or several months or several years…?

Scriptures is not concerned with Jesus’ private life, yet, you think that it will concern itself with Mary’s sexual relations?

Factor 1
Reason dictates that the text is there to demonstrate that Jesus was Begoten of the Father through the Power of the Holy Spirit; the statement is seeking to demonstrate Mary’s virginity not her sexual relations with Joseph.

Factor 2
Either Mary and Joseph waited till Jesus was in His teens to have these many additional children or they are the worse parents in the history of Israel–when Jesus was 12 they took Him to the Temple and forgot all about their many other children; imagine those poor kids away from their parents for months at a time… :tsktsk:

Factor 3
Language: (though I am not a linguist) It seems to me that in Jesus’ culture all relatives, immidiate and removed, were called brothers; the most loyals of Yahweh’s servants requested that their children seeked a wife from among their own family/clan–hense they were to mary their sisters; was that a mandate to form incestuous relations?

Factor 4
Jewish culture: While on the Cross Jesus awards Mary’s custody to John; this would necessitate Joseph’s death prior to His Crucifixion. Yet, it is inconceivable that after all of His Teachings Jesus would resort to exert revenge upon His brothers and sisters (since they did not believe in Him) by taking Mary away from them and making Mary the award of someone who is not related to Him by blood (remember, John the Baptist had already been killed). In one single action Jesus dissolved Mary’s relationship with His many brothers and sisters and imposed upon John and his family the responsibility of caring for His elderly widowed Mom. Quite a feat for a Man who professed to love your enemy!

Maran atha!

Angel***
 
Yes you should go on. You are only listing the opinions of men who lived hundreds of years later and have nothing to base their opinion on, except wishful thinking. Show us some proof, such as Scripture or writings from the early church fathers dating back to the first or second century.

How about something from Polycarp, or Barnabas, or Clement or Ignatius. They lived with the apostles and knew all about them. Don’t quote someone from hundreds of years later and you could be believed.
Ummm, gee, Old “Scholar” - where to begin?
**YOU **were the one who brought St. Augustine into the conversation. I merely tore your position to shreds.
As for whether or not I can supply you with statements from earlier Fathers about the Papacy and succession - here you go:

Hermas

**“Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [Bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty” **(The Shepherd 2:4:3 A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch
"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father"
(*Letter to the Romans *1:1 A.D. 110]).

**
**
 
***Factor 1
Reason dictates that the text is there to demonstrate that Jesus was Begoten of the Father through the Power of the Holy Spirit; the statement is seeking to demonstrate Mary’s virginity not her sexual relations with Joseph. * this assumption widely agreed (im not debating it), she was a virgin a LEAST untill jesus was born. (this isn’t about if jesus was conceived by the holy spirit (he was) so don’t see what this has to do with it.) nor do i racall him directly implying that she was to remain virgin. (maybe he did and i forgot, do you know where he said? ****

Factor 2
Either Mary and Joseph waited till Jesus was in His teens to have these many additional children or they are the worse parents in the history of Israel–when Jesus was 12 they took Him to the Temple and forgot all about their many other children; imagine those poor kids away from their parents for months at a time… :tsktsk:* i was not aware that they stayed with him, and left the children?, is that possible (him to have children while jesus was in his teens) don’t remember the age of mary or joseph *

Factor 3
Language: (though I am not a linguist) It seems to me that in Jesus’ culture all relatives, immidiate and removed, were called brothers; the most loyals of Yahweh’s servants requested that their children seeked a wife from among their own family/clan–hense they were to mary their sisters; was that a mandate to form incestuous relations? true and incest was condemed, and if mary was sinless and (many claim joseph as well), would this happen?

Factor 4
Jewish culture: While on the Cross Jesus awards Mary’s custody to John; this would necessitate Joseph’s death prior to His Crucifixion. Yet, it is inconceivable that after all of His Teachings Jesus would resort to exert revenge upon His brothers and sisters (since they did not believe in Him) by taking Mary away from them and making Mary the award of someone who is not related to Him by blood (remember, John the Baptist had already been killed). In one single action Jesus dissolved Mary’s relationship with His many brothers and sisters and imposed upon John and his family the responsibility of caring for His elderly widowed Mom. Quite a feat for a Man who professed to love your enemy!

*not sure i get it all, but if Joseph is dead, (your implying?) is he telling her to sever relationship with the brothers or to have Jesus [award] Mary’s custody to John and if not mistaken thats what was condered being married to someone, back then the man had custdoy or the woman or (at least i thought.)

but then again , salvation would nonetheless be the same, (and wheter mary remained virgin or not, would have no effect on the steps to salvation.
*
zmyr88
 
I see you and elvisman have a disagreement about scriptures let’s do what the bible prescribes to do, (Mt 18:17) and take your disagreement to the Church, since your Church did not exist at that early date lets go to the original church the Holy Catholic Church since the (Mt 16:18-19) gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it to settle this issue.
Would you be so kind as to list the Scriptures we disagree on?

I haven’t seen any disagreement on Scripture with Elvis.
 
It is unfortunate there is only one Greek word for brother and brethren.
If there were, then would you be able to accept the Teachings of the Catholic Church?
And the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, the language of the times, not Greek, so it doesn’t matter what the Greek word for brother means in the Old Testament. The Hebrew is awkh.
It is relevant because Jesus and his Apostles used a Gk. translation also. We know this from the quotes we can trace.
I can’t imagine why you want to take it so far out of context.
The context of this passage, as with the entire New Testament, is the Catholic Church. The NT proceeds from Sacred Tradition, which teaches us that Mary was ever virgin.
They are talking of Jesus’ brothers and sisters, nothing is said about cousins.
You just agreed above that there was no word for cousin? These children could be Josephs from a previous marriage, or sons and daughters of the sister of Joseph (Mary the mother of James and Joses).
The Scriptures are also quite clear when they say Joseph “knew her not until after Christ was born.” That makes it a virgin birth, just as God planned it. To deny that Joseph and Mary did not then have a normal Jewish marriage is ridiculous.
Unusual perhaps, but not ridiculous. The foolishness of God is wiser than the wisdom of man
You are in error on this point. It appears that you have not read the fathers!
And none of Jesus’ brothers were at the Crucifixion. John was the disciple “who Jesus loved” and it would have been natural to give her care over to him. James was not converted until Christ’s death.
Just because the family is not present when the eldest son is murdered, that does not change the responsibilities of the family members to care for the widowed, bereaved mother. If there had been siblings, it would have been an insult to them.

And one has to wonder, why were the brethren not present at the crucifixion?
Mary was special, no doubt about it, the virgin mother of Jesus. The custom was not to name women then but it would seem natural to name Mary. She was no Queen however…[/queen]

The role of the queen mother in Israel has to be seen through the eyes of the Davidic Kingdom. She is a queen not by her own virtue, but by that of her Son, who is King. This title came about working backwards from the identity of Christ, who holds the Keys of David.
Old Scholar;3205357:
You still can’t list any early church fathers, first and second century, who believed as you do about Mary. It was a much later invention of Romans who wanted it to be that way.
This is an error based on several misunderstandings. One is that the “Roman” rite had any unique identity at the time. It did not. Secondly, if this is a “Roman” phenomenon, then why do the Orthodox, who have no attachment to Roman ways, believe the same things? I challenge you to google “Theotokos and Orthodox”. You will find that this phenomenon has nothing to do with Rome.

Thirdly, how in any way do the Marian doctrins benefit “the Romans” who you say invented them? Don’t you realize the whole early church was Jewish?

When Luke wrote his gospel accounts of Mary as the Ark of the new covenenant, the gospel had not even made it’s way to Rome!
[/QUOTE]
 
Actually it was the idea that Mary *did not *have other children that surfaced in the 4th century. I don’t believe you can find any credible evidence of this belief until then. This is in the same category of claiming primacy of Peter—no Biblical support but instead what someone hundreds of years later wanted to believe.
The Christian faith did not come from the New Testament, but from Jesus. The NT is a reflection of what that Church believed, but not the Source of the Teachngs. The scriptures are very clear on the Primacy of Peter, and the whold Christian Church agreed on that point.
It came with the Romans taking over the Christian Church.
I hate to have to break this to you, but the Romans never took over the Christian Church. You have obviously been misguided about church history.

I also urge you to check your assumptions on this with the Orthodox, who were never a part of the Latinization of Catholicism, yet still hold these Sacred Traditions about Mary.
Jerome had no access that is not available today.
This is also an error. In fact, Jerome had a great many manuscripts and documents that have not survived.
Jerome wrote in the 4th century and most Catholics don’t put much faith in what he had to say.
Where did you get that idea? 🤷

Why is the Jerome Bible commentary one of the most popular?
He certainly wrote a great deal but his refutation of Scripture doesn’t hold true. His story is the same as all others who do not want to believe Scripture.
This is an interesting assertion. I think it needs a new thread, though. All Catholics understand scripture in the light of the Teaching of Jesus, which is the Source from which the NT sprang.
Since you say Jerome cited Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin Martyr and even Irenæus, please list the citations, as I can’t find them in Jerome’s writing. Perhaps I overlooked them.
It sure does appear that you overlooked quite a bit! 😉
I would be more apt to believe Mary remained a virgin and did not bear Jesus’ brothers and sisters if the earlier church fathers wrote of it.
I think maybe this is the case because you reject the Sacred Tradition which produced the Bible you are using.
 
This is using a hypothetical.
Well, why does he do that? Why would he indicate that Mary had no other children, as a hypothetical? 🤷
…saying that Mary remained a virgin…and why would they think it was obvious? Scripture says otherwise. Don’t you think they believed Scripture?
They understood the scripture differently, because they were closer to those that wrote it, and understood the Apostolic TEachings.
Take Peter’s primacy, for example, you have to really bend things a great deal to make Matthew 16:18 say what the Roman Catholics want it to say.
I think you will have to take Peter’s Primacy to another thread.

This verse said the same thing to the whole Church throughout tie world. Again, check this with the Orthodox, who have no soft spot for Rome.
The term Pope wasn’t even used until about the 4th or 5th century
Good for you! You finally got a historical fact right on! This is when the Latin Rite emerged as separate from the Eastern Rites, and Liturgy developed distinctions. The term is a distinctly Latin term, and that is why it was not used by the earlier universal church.
Code:
and no one until then gave any credence to "one man rule."
And still do not. This is not the model of leadership Jesus taught. He always addressed the Apostles as a group, in union with one another, and we can see through the early writings that all things were done in unity with the bishop (s). The pope does not “rule”, he is the servant of the servants of God, and that is how he signs his letters. He leads the church in union with the bishops throughout the world, just as Jesus intended.
The Early Church Fathers never tells us about peter being the first pope or him having authority over anyone else, nor did the apostles.
Authority is established by Christ, who gave it to Peter, and the other Apostles. It was passed on through the Apostolic Succession. At the time, none of them ever spoke Latin. Some Greek, perhaps, but none of them ever heard of the word “pope”. Yet, all acknowledged the Petrine gifts, as given by Christ. It is not authority in the sense of “ruling over” as you secular mind appears to pull you. It is authority in service, and teaching of right doctrine.
Code:
No one in those days mentioned anything about Mary remaining a virgin and certainly no one ever even thought of an immaculate conception or assumption.
You don’t know this, since we don’t have all of the Teaching written down. However, Mary’s virginity did not have to be talked about , since it was a given to all. The Apostles were with her. They knew she had no other kids.
Code:
Purgatory is not a Biblical belief.  Indulgences came much later.
Ok, you seem to have a lot of axes to grind. Can we do one at a time, or start new threads for these? This one is about Mary, and we should focus. Try to keep all you anit-Romanism to come spewing out all at once!
Code:
Makes us wonder why God gave us the Bible at all.  Do we really need it, or could we just take what the bishops say as Gospel...
Yes, but clearly God wanted us to have sacred writings. They were never meant to be separated from the bishops who were ordained to teach what they contained.
 
elvisman

**I see you have listed what you may call proof of Peter’s primacy over the rest of the apostles but I believe we should consult Scripture to see what the truth is.

We must go to the Scriptures to show that this is a false claim. There was no supremacy given to Peter or any of the other apostles, on the contrary,** it was made quite clear that they were all equal in stature. **** It is true Peter was the first apostle, could be called the “chief” apostle and some might say the “greatest” but in terms of authority, he was equal in every respect to the others and they all knew it. Peter did as well. That’s why nothing appears in Scripture that places anything special upon Peter.

Christ expressly prohibited lordship among the apostles; that no apostle should have any supremacy over the rest. Read Luke 22, 25. This was the very question that was being disputed among the apostles when Christ spoke of His passion. They wanted to know who would be their head and **Christ removed their error and taught that there shall not be lordship or superiority among them, but that they should be sent forth as equals to the common ministry of the Gospel. ** His disapproval is very obvious here as holds these matters against one another.

In Matthew 18:2, the same message is taught by the parable, when Christ, in the same dispute concerning the kingdom, places a little child in the midst, signifying that among ministers there is not to be sovereignty, just as a child neither takes or seeks sovereignty for himself. How strange that the very thing the RCC has done is violate this teaching and principle of Christ.

John 20:21-23. “Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.”

Here Christ sends forth His disciples on an equality, without any distinction so that no one of them was to have more or less power than any other.
When He says,* “As my Father hath sent Me, even so I send you.”* Nothing can be plainer than these words. It takes a great deal of deception to completely ignore them, but then if you don’t study the Scriptures, you won’t know they are there. Notice that He grants to no one a prerogative or lordship above the rest. Also he gives them full power as the RCC claims was given only to Peter.

In Galatians 2:7, we find that Paul is manifestly affirming that he was neither ordained nor confirmed, or endorsed, by Peter, nor does he acknowledge Peter to be one from whom confirmation should be sought. He expressly contends on this point that his call does not depend upon the authority of Peter. But surely he would have acknowledged Peter as a superior if Peter was superior by divine right, i.e., if he had indeed received such supremacy from Christ. Paul also states that he had** at once preached the Gospel freely for a long time without consulting Peter.** “Of those who seemed to be somewhat (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me; God accepteth no man’s person). And: “they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me.”

B]Paul teaches that the authority of the ministry depends upon the Word of God, and that Peter was not superior to the other apostles, and it was not from this one individual Peter that ordination or confirmation was to be sought. The office of the ministry proceeds from the general call of the apostles.

In the following verses, Paul makes ministers equal, and teaches that the Church is above the ministers, therefore superiority or lordship over the Church or the rest of the ministers is not ascribed to Peter in preference to the other apostles.

1Cor 3:5 “Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. 7) So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.”

Further on in 1 Cor 3, Paul says, **“All things are yours, whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas," **i.e., let neither the other ministers nor Peter assume for themselves lordship or superiority over the Church; **let them not burden the Church with traditions; **let not the authority of any avail more than the Word of God; let not the authority of Cephas be opposed to the authority of the other apostles, as they reasoned at that time: “

I will also show historically that the early church did not recognize any special authority of any one church. But space will not allow it here. In a later post.

🙂
 
elvisman

**I see you have listed what you may call proof of Peter’s primacy over the rest of the apostles but I believe we should consult Scripture to see what the truth is. **

We must go to the Scriptures to show that this is a false claim. There was no supremacy given to Peter or any of the other apostles, on the contrary, it was made quite clear that they were all equal in stature. ****It is true Peter was the first apostle, could be called the “chief” apostle and some might say the “greatest” but in terms of authority, he was equal in every respect to the others and they all knew it. Peter did as well. That’s why nothing appears in Scripture that places anything special upon Peter.

🙂
**Yes, let’s **consult the Scriptures.
Your glaring omissions of the following passages prove my point:

Matt. 16:17-19

***Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. ***
***And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. ***
***I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” ***

John 21:15-19
***When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” ***
***He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” ***
***He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep. ***
***Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” ***

Luke 22:31-32
**"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you (plural) like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith (singular) may not fail; and once you (singular) have turned back, you (singular) must strengthen your brothers." **

This is getting embarrassing. Shall I go on??
 
I will also show historically that the early church did not recognize any special authority of any one church. But space will not allow it here. In a later post.
In the following verses, Paul makes ministers equal, and teaches that the Church is above the ministers, therefore superiority or lordship over the Church or the rest of the ministers is not ascribed to Peter in preference to the other apostles.

🙂
Just some food for thought:

Clement of Alexandria
"The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

The Letter of Clement to James
"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9:32–34]" (ibid., 17:27).

Ignatius of Antioch
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R.
 
**Yes, let’s **consult the Scriptures.
Your glaring omissions of the following passages prove my point:

Matt. 16:17-19

***Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. ***
***And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. ***
***I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” ***

John 21:15-19
***When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” ***
***He then said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord, you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” ***
***He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” (Jesus) said to him, “Feed my sheep. ***
***Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go.” ***

Luke 22:31-32
"Simon, Simon, behold Satan has demanded to sift all of you (plural) like wheat, but I have prayed that your own faith (singular) may not fail; and once you (singular) have turned back, you (singular) must strengthen your brothers."

This is getting embarrassing. Shall I go on??
Yes it is getting embarassing because you are using speculation of verses that do not say what you want them to say and totally ignoring the ones that are very clear and plainly stated. That means one of two things. Either you choose to ignore the Scriptures you don’t like and make assumptions from the ones you do or you simply don’t believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

Which is it?
 
Just some food for thought:

Clement of Alexandria

"The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? ‘Behold, we have left all and have followed you’ [Matt. 19:27; Mark 10:28]" (Who Is the Rich Man That Is Saved? 21:3–5 [A.D. 200]).

The Letter of Clement to James
"Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect" (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D. 221]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9:32–34]" (ibid., 17:27).

Ignatius of Antioch
Wherever the bishop appears, there let the people be; as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful to baptize or give communion without the consent of the bishop. — Letter to the Smyrnaeans 8, J.R.
Now I see…You choose to not believe Christ’s words or the words of the apostles but instead believe the words of some man hundreds of years later…

You are proving my point, the Scriptures have been added to by the “tradition” of mere men and not by anyone with apostolic authority. Christ warned us about that and what would happen if that occurred.
 
**I see you have listed what you may call proof of Peter’s primacy over the rest of the apostles but I believe we should consult Scripture to see what the truth is.

We must go to the Scriptures to show that this is a false claim. There was no supremacy given to Peter or any of the other apostles, on the contrary,** it was made quite clear that they were all equal in stature. **** It is true Peter was the first apostle, could be called the “chief” apostle and some might say the “greatest” but in terms of authority, he was equal in every respect to the others and they all knew it. Peter did as well. That’s why nothing appears in Scripture that places anything special upon Peter.

When Jesus went into the region of Caesarea Philippi he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”
14
They replied, “Some say John the Baptist, others Elijah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
15
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
16
Simon Peter said in reply, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17
Jesus said to him in reply, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.
18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
19
I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Hmmmm. Was he talking just to Peter or the rest of the Apostles? :hmmm:

I think I’ll go with the Catholic position on this one. 😉
 
Now I see…You choose to not believe Christ’s words or the words of the apostles but instead believe the words of some man hundreds of years later…

You are proving my point, the Scriptures have been added to by the “tradition” of mere men and not by anyone with apostolic authority. Christ warned us about that and what would happen if that occurred.
Either you have a frighteningly short memory or you’re just not that bright. I choose to believe the former.
Scholar - YOU are the one who said:

I will also show historically that the early church did not recognize any special authority of any one church. But space will not allow it here. In a later post.
I merely showed you that, historically, the early Church DID recognize these things.
 
Yes it is getting embarassing because you are using speculation of verses that do not say what you want them to say and totally ignoring the ones that are very clear and plainly stated. That means one of two things. Either you choose to ignore the Scriptures you don’t like and make assumptions from the ones you do or you simply don’t believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

Which is it?
You are held to seek the truth and to search for unity by the will of Christ but you are deliberately ignoring the statements of elvisman and seeking division. I think that **elvisman **deserves an answerer instead of completely ignoring and patronizing him. I can easily use your evasive technique but that isn’t Christian charity when answering a brother Christian.
 
Yes it is getting embarassing because you are using speculation of verses that do not say what you want them to say and totally ignoring the ones that are very clear and plainly stated. That means one of two things. Either you choose to ignore the Scriptures you don’t like and make assumptions from the ones you do or you simply don’t believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

Which is it?
WHICH verses do not say what I wanted them to say? Please be specific.
As for the Bible being the inerrant word of God - as a Catholic, I believe that completely. Afterall, the Catholic Church compiled the Catholic books written by Catholic men and approved the canon - which we now call “The Bible”.
However - the Bible does NOT contain the COMPLETE word of God. (John 21:24-25)
 
… you are using speculation of verses that do not say what you want them to say and totally ignoring the ones that are very clear and plainly stated.
😃 Who is doing that? 😃

Just yankin’ your chain. 😉

But seriously, you we all do that to some extent? And what’s clear and plainly stated to one are not so to the next…and…aren’t we all a bit colored by or orange or green-ness? 😉

Bottom line is that whether or not you agree with the Magisterium and Catholic interpretation, either one accepts Magisterial authority and Catholic Tradition in Scriptural interpretation or not, right?
 
WHICH verses do not say what I wanted them to say? Please be specific.
As for the Bible being the inerrant word of God - as a Catholic, I believe that completely. Afterall, the Catholic Church compiled the Catholic books written by Catholic men and approved the canon - which we now call “The Bible”.
However - the Bible does NOT contain the COMPLETE word of God. (John 21:24-25)
elvisman

If you read my post #267, I gave several Scriptures that unequivocally say that Christ gave equal power to all the apostles. In Matthew 16:18, Christ is speaking to Peter and to all the disciples. However in Matthew 18:18, Christ gives the same power to all the apostles as He gave Peter. Peter received nothing special.

In Matthew 16:18, Christ called Peter “petros” which means a small stone. Then He said He would build His church upon this rock petra] which means a large rock or cliff. Now in many other places Christ is called the rock and the foundation of the church. Peter calls Him that and even the early church fathers agreed that Christ is the rock, the foundation, and it was the faith of Peter that the church was built upon.

That’s why I said you wanted the verse to read a certain way, but it does not read that way.

Very shortly after Christ called Peter a rock, or stone, He also called him Satan because of Peter’s actions. Later as you know, Peter denied Christ three times. After the resurrection, Christ made Peter say three times that he loved Christ. That was to fulfill Jewish Law and to be sure Peter was relieved of his guilt.

Now the problem comes when one takes a simple verse like Matthew 16:18, which is superseded by Matthew 18:18, and then builds an entire religion on it when there are many other verses that plainly state that all the apostles were equal in stature and power. That is the strange part.

If a person really studies the Scriptures, he will find there is no mystery to such things. The real mystery and surprise will come on judgment day. Either I am right or you are!

Frankly I believe Christ when He said the only way to the Father is by Him. Man may invent other ways, but I will put my money on Christ every time.

🙂 Yours in Christ…
 
Origen explains Peter and the Rock!

But if you suppose that upon that one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, “The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,” hold **in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, “Upon this rock I will build My church”? Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, “I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,” be common to the others, how shall not all the things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them? For in this place these words seem to be addressed as to Peter only, “Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven,” etc; but in the Gospel of John the Saviour having given the Holy Spirit unto the disciples by breathing upon them said, “Receive ye the Holy Spirit,” etc. Many then will say to the Saviour, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God;” but not all who say this will say it to Him, as not at all having learned it by the revelation of flesh and blood but by the Father in heaven Himself taking away the veil that lay upon their heart, in order that after this “with unveiled face reflecting as a mirror the glory of the Lord” they may speak through the Spirit of God saying concerning Him, “Lord Jesus,” and to Him, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.” And if any one says this to Him, not by flesh and blood revealing it unto Him but through the Father in heaven, he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches, to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname of “rock” who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual draught. But these bear the surname of the rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters. And taking occasion from these things you will say that the righteous bear the surname of Christ who is Righteousness, and the wise of Christ who is Wisdom. And so in regard to all His other names, you will apply them by way of surname to the saints; and to all such the saying of the Saviour might be spoken, “Thou art Peter,” etc., down to the words, “prevail against it.” But what is the “it”? Is it the rock upon which Christ builds the church, or is it the church? For the phrase is ambiguous. Or is it as if the rock and the church were one and the same? This I think to be true; for neither against the rock on which Christ builds the church, nor against the church will the gates of Hades prevail; just as the way of a serpent upon a rock, according to what is written in the Proverbs, cannot be found. **Now, if the gates of Hades prevail against any one, such an one cannot be a rock upon which Christ builds the church, nor the church built by Jesus upon the rock; for the rock is inaccessible to the serpent, and it is stronger than the gates of Hades which are opposing it, so that because of its strength the gates of Hades do not prevail against it; **but the church, as a building of Christ who built His own house wisely upon the rock, is incapable of admitting the gates of Hades which prevail against every man who is outside the rock and the church, but have no power against it. **
 
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