Scripture and Tradition Questions

[jcrichton]

But isn’t it true that what was taught orally (at least some of it) is not “traceable” (can’t think of a better term) back to the apostles?

***Hi, Pwrlftr!

It is difficult to say how much of the Apostles’ Teachings was lost. They lived in different times, under extremely difficult conditions, and with way limited means.

But Church history, as secular history, has always had dedicated scholars whose main function was to keep records of the Church’s Teachings.

Sadly, too many people believe that Christ’s Church was somehow dismantled and kept hidden for hundreds of years only to be rescued by those lucky few band of brothers (sorry it just came out that way).

Just as our personal family’s traditions arose and were ratained, in some measure, so the Teachings of the Church got passed from one generation to the next.

The Church has battled all sorts of heresies throughout her history (i.e.: Jesus’ Divinity, the Holy Trinity, etc.), had there not been cohesion and continuance of Faith and Teachings there would be greater confusion in the Christian world.

Just think of it, schisms that originated from simple interpretations, different modes of worship, and miscalculations in seeking to rectify errors have grown to divisions in the Catholic Church and myriad of denominational groups.

If you go to www.vatican.org*, www.ewtn.org, and www.advent.org you will be able to read the early Church’s history and the early Church’s Fathers. These writings go way back so don’t be surprise to discover the evolution of the Church in response to the various disciplines that arose negating even God’s Authory and the changes affected by the nature of an organic organism: the Church is alive, always growing and always seeking to maintain Faith with God through the Holy Scriptures and Traditions.

God Bless!

Angel**

 

[Protestant101]

No one has answered my question above yet; re what is the difference between “liturgy” and “sacrament;” but I have another, related question to add, if I may.

The Catechism states the following:

1085 In the liturgy of the Church, it is principally his own Paschal mystery that Christ signifies and makes present.

Does this mean that “liturgy” primarily refers to the Mass/Eucharist, as taught by the Catholic Church? Is there anything besides the Eucharist, which would be called “liturgy?”

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help.

 

[DebChris]

The Word of God comes to us incarnated in human speech. It does not come pre-packaged from heaven.
When Catholics speak of Sacrament, they speak of visible and efficiaous signs of God’s grace.
These are often celebrated within the liturgy of the Church. Within the liturgical celebration, we hear the Word of God proclaimed and preached. We also join with other Christian brothers and sisters, including the communion of saints, as we pray for forgiveness of sins and in thanksgiving for the salvation that Christ has given us.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Protestant101:

Does this mean that “liturgy” primarily refers to the Mass/Eucharist, as taught by the Catholic Church?

Liturgy (leitourgia) is a Greek composite word meaning originally a public duty, a service to the state undertaken by a citizen. Its elements are leitos (from leos = laos, people) meaning public, and ergo (obsolete in the present stem, used in future erxo, etc.), to do. From this we have leitourgos, “a man who performs a public duty”, “a public servant”, often used as equivalent to the Roman lictor; then leitourgeo, “to do such a duty”, leitourgema, its performance, and leitourgia, the public duty itself.

At Athens the leitourgia was the public service performed by the wealthier citizens at their own expense, such as the office of gymnasiarch, who superintended the gymnasium, that of choregus, who paid the singers of a chorus in the theatre, that of the hestiator, who gave a banquet to his tribe, of the trierarchus, who provided a warship for the state. The meaning of the word liturgy is then extended to cover any general service of a public kind. In the Septuagint it (and the verb leitourgeo) is used for the public service of the temple (e.g., Exodus 38:27; 39:12, etc.). Thence it comes to have a religious sense as the function of the priests, the ritual service of the temple (e.g., Joel 1:9, 2:17, etc.). In the New Testament this religious meaning has become definitely established. In Luke 1:23, Zachary goes home when “the days of his liturgy” (ai hemerai tes leitourgias autou) are over. In Hebrews 8:6, the high priest of the New Law “has obtained a better liturgy”, that is a better kind of public religious service than that of the Temple.

So in Christian use liturgy meant the public official service of the Church, that corresponded to the official service of the Temple in the Old Law.

We must now distinguish two senses in which the word was and is still commonly used. These two senses often lead to confusion.

On the one hand, liturgy often means the whole complex of official services, all the rites, ceremonies, prayers, and sacraments of the Church, as opposed to private devotions. In this sense we speak of the arrangement of all these services in certain set forms (including the canonical hours, administration of sacraments, etc.), used officially by any local church, as the liturgy of such a church – the Liturgy of Antioch, the Roman Liturgy, and so on. So liturgy means rite; we speak indifferently of the Byzantine Rite or the Byzantine Liturgy. In the same sense we distinguish the official services from others by calling them liturgical; those services are liturgical which are contained in any of the official books (see LITURGICAL BOOKS) of a rite

newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htm

 

[Mannyfit75]

Is there anything besides the Eucharist, which would be called “liturgy?”

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help.

Yes, I believe the Liturgy of the Hours is also another form of Liturgy. I also think (correct if I’m wrong) that Penance, Baptism, Confirmation would be consider a Liturgy.

 

[ryanoneil]

No one has answered my question above yet; re what is the difference between “liturgy” and “sacrament;” but I have another, related question to add, if I may.

The Catechism states the following:

Does this mean that “liturgy” primarily refers to the Mass/Eucharist, as taught by the Catholic Church? Is there anything besides the Eucharist, which would be called “liturgy?”

Thanks in advance for anyone who can help.

The Liturgy of the Word preceeds the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

 

[guanophore]

But isn’t it true that what was taught orally (at least some of it) is not “traceable” (can’t think of a better term) back to the apostles?

If it did not come from the Apostolic Tradition, then it is not part of the Divine Deposit of Faith.

 

[guanophore]

Yes, I believe the Liturgy of the Hours is also another form of Liturgy. I also think (correct if I’m wrong) that Penance, Baptism, Confirmation would be consider a Liturgy.

I think there are Rites or Rubrics for each of these sacraments, but most are designed to take place during the Mass, which is the liturgy in which they are situated.

There is also a Penitential Rite designed to be used as part of a of communal service.

 

[Protestant101]

Liturgy (leitourgia) So liturgy means rite; we speak indifferently of the Byzantine Rite or the Byzantine Liturgy. In the same sense we distinguish the official services from others by calling them liturgical; those services are liturgical which are contained in any of the official books (see LITURGICAL BOOKS) of a rite

newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htm

So “liturgy” means the various acts of worship in your Church? I am still trying to figure out exactly what a “sacrament” is, in comparision. Can anyone offer a little more detail on that?

Also; in Catholicism; sacraments and liturgy are supposed to be a part of Tradition. Is this correct? Is Tradition limited to these two things; or are there other doctrines, which are also part of Tradition? Ones such as veneration of Mary, Sunday observance, Peter as the first Pope; etc?

 

[Mannyfit75]

So “liturgy” means the various acts of worship in your Church?

In plain English it’s an act of public worship in the Church.

I am still trying to figure out exactly what a “sacrament” is, in comparision. Can anyone offer a little more detail on that?

The sacraments, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, are efficacious signs of grace perceptible to the senses. Through them divine life is bestowed upon us." They assist individuals in their spiritual progress and growth in holiness. The sacraments contribute to the Church’s growth in charity and in giving witness.

In the Liturgy of of the elements of Sacraments comes into play. In the Liturgy, we hear the Word of God through the OT reading, Psalm reading, Epistles, and Gospel Reading, and finally we received the third Sacrament of the Seven, the Eucharist.

The Mass is broken down in parts:

Introduction Rite, Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist, and Concluding Rite.

In the introduction rite, we received Penitential Rite. In this rite, we confess our sinfulness to God, and ask for his forgiveness. We sing the Kyrie, and then sing Glory to God.

The Liturgy of the Word is where Scriptures come to life. There is a first reading from the Old Testament, Responsorial Psalm, Second Reading from the Epistles, and the Gospel Reading from 4 Gospels, followed by a homily, and profession of faith by reciting the Nicene Creed.

Finally, there is the Eucharistic Liturgy. This begins with presentation of the gifts. We bring the unleaven bread and wine to the alter. From there the priest prays over the gifts, says the Eucharist prayer, then preface dialogue between priest and the congregation, then we say the Holy, Holy, Holy Lord.

Then we say the Common Rite, and say the Lord’s Prayer, sign of peace, break bread, received Holy Communion, and finally we have the concluding rite, where the priest bless the congregation.

Here is an order of the Mass.

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm#Introductory

Also; in Catholicism; sacraments and liturgy are supposed to be a part of Tradition.

They are part of our Tradition because in this liturgy is the Eucharist. It is said, that the source and summit of our faith the Eucharist. Is this correct?

Is Tradition limited to these two things; or are there other doctrines, which are also part of Tradition? Ones such as veneration of Mary, Sunday observance, Peter as the first Pope; etc?

Veneration of Mary has been a part of* our tradition*. It isn’t required by the Church for the faith to ask Mary to pray for us. Sunday observance has been around since the time of the Apostle, and Peter as the first Pope has always been and therefore essential.

 

[Protestant101]

In plain English it’s an act of public worship in the Church.

The sacraments, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, are efficacious signs of grace perceptible to the senses. Through them divine life is bestowed upon us." They assist individuals in their spiritual progress and growth in holiness. The sacraments contribute to the Church’s growth in charity and in giving witness.

In the Liturgy of of the elements of Sacraments comes into play. In the Liturgy, we hear the Word of God through the OT reading, Psalm reading, Epistles, and Gospel Reading, and finally we received the third Sacrament of the Seven, the Eucharist.

The Mass is broken down in parts:

Introduction Rite, Liturgy of the Word, Liturgy of the Eucharist, and Concluding Rite.

In the introduction rite, we received Penitential Rite. In this rite, we confess our sinfulness to God, and ask for his forgiveness. We sing the Kyrie, and then sing Glory to God.

The Liturgy of the Word is where Scriptures come to life. There is a first reading from the Old Testament, Responsorial Psalm, Second Reading from the Epistles, and the Gospel Reading from 4 Gospels, followed by a homily, and profession of faith by reciting the Nicene Creed.

Finally, there is the Eucharistic Liturgy. This begins with presentation of the gifts. We bring the unleaven bread and wine to the alter. From there the priest prays over the gifts, says the Eucharist prayer, then preface dialogue between priest and the congregation, then we say the Holy, Holy, Holy Lord.

Then we say the Common Rite, and say the Lord’s Prayer, sign of peace, break bread, received Holy Communion, and finally we have the concluding rite, where the priest bless the congregation.

Here is an order of the Mass.

catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/Mass.htm#Introductory

They are part of our Tradition because in this liturgy is the Eucharist. It is said, that the source and summit of our faith the Eucharist. Is this correct?

Veneration of Mary has been a part of* our tradition*. It isn’t required by the Church for the faith to ask Mary to pray for us. Sunday observance has been around since the time of the Apostle, and Peter as the first Pope has always been and therefore essential.

Are we talking about the same kind of “Tradition” here? I am referring to what Catholics class as divinely inspired Tradition, as opposed to “traditions” in your various congregations. Tradition is supposed to be (in Catholic teachings) equal to “The Word of God” as a part of the whole? Therefore; I am just trying to make sure I know exactly what it is made up of.

I have, of course, known about Sunday Observance, and it’s history; but I am trying to find out if it is classed as “divinely inspired” “Tradition?”

Also; regarding Mary, perhaps it was the wrong choice of words for me to say “veneration” thereof. You have stated how that “veneration” of “Mary” “was not required;” but what about some of the other Marian doctrines held by Catholics? Are they too “not required?”

 

[TOME]

Protestant101,
First I apologize for not responding sooner to your questions about Liturgy and the Sacraments, I haven’t had the time to write a response that I was comfortable communicating because I have a fear I might be leading this thread off the topic at hand. Also, that your question was getting into an area that would be better suited for discussion in another forum - one that addresses the topics of the Liturgy and Sacraments spicifically.

I am still not please with what I am coming up with but maybe in its own way might help.

I see others have taken on trying to explain the nature of the 7 Sacraments and spicifically the Liturgy as it relates to the Sacrament of the Eucharist. From what I have read these post are a good starting points for further study and I hope you, and everyone here, will use them just that way - as starting points for further study.

But what I was attempting to convey was in regards to the Apostolic Tradition as expressed in the Liturgy. I know you have been asking just what is Apostolic Tradition and I inferred from your questions that you wanted a kind of “list” of this Tradition. That is why I suggested that you study what is proclaimed in the Creeds as a kind of list you may be seeking. I also suggested that you study the Liturgy as another means of just what Apostolic Tradition is and from it Divine Revelation as well (as understood and taught by the Church).

Here my suggestion is for you to study the prayers, especially the four “Eucharistic Prayers” that are used in the Mass. What we pray ( and I include in the term “pray” what is sung as well") is what we believe and we believe this is rooted in what the Apostles taught thus you may get a better idea of just what Apostolic Tradition truely is ( or the list of beliefs that make up Apostolic Tradition). As I tried to convey earlier, although I admittly did so poorly, what was described as “Non-Essential” traditions (here I am not referring to Dogmas and Doctrines) are important because they give expression of our understanding, as The Church - The Body of Christ- in our own historical mileiu.

But again may intent is to focus on providing, for you, a kind of “List” of Apostolic Tradition" realizing the simplicity of my answer borders on, if not crosses the border into becoming simplisitc.

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101,
First I apologize for not responding sooner to your questions about Liturgy and the Sacraments, I haven’t had the time to write a response that I was comfortable communicating because I have a fear I might be leading this thread off the topic at hand. Also, that your question was getting into an area that would be better suited for discussion in another forum - one that addresses the topics of the Liturgy and Sacraments spicifically.

As I tried to convey earlier, although I admittly did so poorly, what was described as “Non-Essential” traditions (here I am not referring to Dogmas and Doctrines) are important because they give expression of our understanding, as The Church - The Body of Christ- in our own historical mileiu.

But again may intent is to focus on providing, for you, a kind of “List” of Apostolic Tradition" realizing the simplicity of my answer borders on, if not crosses the border into becoming simplisitc.

Hey; don’t feel bad. I was thinking that your posts were quite helpful. I could be wrong; but it seems to me that Catholics in general, perhaps don’t study in depth about what Tradition actually is - that is, “essential tradition” which is divinely inspired.

Where I was coming from was simply that if, as I posted earlier from Catholic sources, it is true that essential tradition is equal to the word of God; and if sacraments and liturgy constitute a part of Tradition; then it must all be connected, as a whole - as “The Word of God.” (in Catholic theology only).

This is what led me to believe that “Tradition” (essential) must consist of, (in addition to sacraments and liturgy), doctrines too, and thus, we should be able to post a list of said doctrines which are officially counted by the Catholic Church as “Tradition.” Tradition; as I understand it, is the un-written Word of God, and granted, much of this “tradition” is written out now, but originally, some doctrines were not exactly from the Holy Bible, they were indeed, spoken words, in the form of essential traditions. This is what I am trying to identify.

 

[TOME]

Protestant101,
First, thank you for your kind words.
One thing I enjoy about many of these threads and this one in particule is it helps me to think, study and clarify so many aspects of my catholic faith that I know if it’s not a case of just of taking them for granted then it’s a matter of not given them the thought I shoud be giving them.

As to what you wrote about doctrines (and may I add Dogmas) and the liturgy and really we are talking about the life of the Church I think we have a tendency to separate them in our studies and fail to see them as an organic whole. Perhaps this is because of oue western mind-set - face it here in the west we like to separate things and analyze them and too often this causes us to “Miss the forest for the trees” In regards to our faith I think this tendency often leads to something I think is at the root of St Paul’s teachings (and is found in the other letters of the NT) about the struggle of the world and the flesh. We tend to seperate what we can see and study and forget what the really real is.

So I think when talking about doctrines and dogmas and even the liturgical life of the Church we must see them as intrinsicly united to one another. That is why the dogmas and doctrines of the Church do not and cannot change but the depth of our understanding can, should and does - again I refer back to seeing these as an organic (living) whole. Where there is life there must be growth. As I wrote in an earlier post, our dogmas and doctrines are intrinsiclly united to the Apostolic Tradition and give, so to speak, enfleshment to the essential Tradition of our Faith.

For example, at the end of the Matthew’s Gospel - the “Great Commission” Christ gives His Apostles to teach all nations and make disciples of all nation we find here one teachings of the Apostles. After all, the Apostles were certainly doing this well before the gospel or any book of the NT was written. So here we have an example of the Apostolic Tradition - The Apostles taught that they were commission by Christ to make disciples of all nations. From this essential tradition, to teach and make disciples of all the nations, developed in the Church the doctrines of the teaching ministry/authority of the Church and based on what the Apostles taught and what was later put in written form of the NT, Christ promised that the Holy Spirit would always be present guiding the Church in this commission. So from this oral Tradition the Church has developed the doctrines of the different teaching ministries of the Church of which comes the Petrine Ministry. These doctrines of the Church’s teaching ministry and authority have developed over the centuries but I think you can see how the Church can refer back to the Apostolic Tradition as grounds for it’s ministry - the Tradition which was first proclimed orally and exercised well before the NT was written.

Also, turning to the liturgy and using Phil 2 as an eample, we find what the Church believed about Christ (The Incarnation). Bible scholars tell us that Phil. 2: 5 - 11 was actually from a liturgical hymn know to Paul and the Phillipians. But, I think you would agree that the origins of this hymn had to be what was taught by the Apostles (Apostolic Tradition). Later (historically speaking) this belief was further developed in the gospels. Centuries later, with the challenge the Church faced by the heresies of Arius and Nestorius the Church was force to call Councils to clarify our belief in the Incarnation leading to the Nicene-Constaninople Creed. Hopefully, from this brief sketch you can see hope the doctrine on the Incarnation, expressed through a creed had as it’s origin in the oral teachings of the Apostles (Oral Tradition) and found expression in the liturgical worship of the Church ( the liturgical hymn of Phi. 2). And hopefully you can see my point how these must be seen as an organic whole.

 

[po18guy]

TRADITIONS AND SCRIPTURE
The word “tradition” comes from the Latin word meaning “to hand on”. It can be used in two senses. First, it can be used to refer to the PROCESS by which religious faith and practice are handed on from one generation to another. Thus we speak of ORAL tradition and WRITTEN tradition. Second, it can be used to refer to the CONTENT of what is handed on. Thus we speak of ESSENTIAL tradition and NONESSENTIAL tradition…In the Catholic Church, tradition is broken down into two categories: “Essential and Non-Essential” traditions. For instance, the tradition that Catholic priests can not marry is an example of a nonessential tradition. It can be changed if the Pope so desires. On the other hand, the Tradition concerning our stand against abortion is an example of an essential Tradition. It can never be changed. Ultimately, it is the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit that decides if a tradition is essential or nonessential. Non-essential traditions are usually established by the church for various reasons - THESE NON-ESSENTIAL TRADITIONS CAN BE CHANGED. ESSENTIAL Traditions are considered to come from those beliefs which were passed down to us by the Apostles, or other reputable witnesses, but not necessarily contained in the bible. For the most part, these APOSTILIC TRADITIONS are not otherwise contained in Scripture, but nevertheless, very important to our Catholic faith…

It is a fact that many other faiths condemn Catholics for including traditions in our faith (Ref Mat 15:3) instead of using the Bible ONLY as our reference in matters of faith. Perhaps if they understood the difference between essential and non-essential traditions, they would better see where we are coming from. I doubt if any of these criticizers have any idea of what the Catholic Church lists as essential and non-essential traditions - but they are quick to condemn us for even mentioning traditions in matters of faith.

Now please know that I am not finding fault of those who do not understand where we are coming from, but am only stating that we probably should do more in opening up our communications with others. so that they will have a better understanding of why we, as Catholics, respect the Traditions of the Apostles and those handed down to us by our church leaders. I do know, from personal encounters, that some Protestants use Mat 15:3-9 when they say that Catholics are wrong in using traditions as part of their faith. The word traditions, with a small “t” is taken strictly out of context in that passage, as it was used in the sense of “human traditions“ and not Apostolic.

Simply excellent.
Some who question the Catholic faith have their own traditions: sola fide and sola scriptura, for example. Both are man-made traditions and are based on an improper or incomplete interpretation of scripture.

Imagine a church that had only tradition, and no scripture. It would be incomplete. The opposite is just as true. You might reach eternal life with just one or the other, but it is best to have both.

 

[guanophore]

So “liturgy” means the various acts of worship in your Church? I am still trying to figure out exactly what a “sacrament” is, in comparision. Can anyone offer a little more detail on that?

This is a very good question, but is it off topic here? No, not all “acts of worship” are considered liturgy. Communal acts of worship usually exist within liturgy (format). A sacrament is a visible sign of God’s grace working through the power of the HS. Sacraments are celebrated (usually) during a proscribed format (liturgy).

Our main liturgies are based on Jewish liturgy. This is clearly evident to anyone who attends a Jewish celebration. Christians (starting with Jesus and the Apostles) attended temple and synagogue until they were ejected by the Jews. At that time, they continued to meet on Sunday, and imported the format (liturgy of the word) of the synagogue service into the “breaking of the bread” (eucharist).

Also; in Catholicism; sacraments and liturgy are supposed to be a part of Tradition. Is this correct?

I am not sure about this language…“supposed to be”? Sacraments and Liturgy belong to the “paradosis” (that which has been handed down) to us. “Remember then what you received and heard; keep that…” Rev 3:3

Scripture, sacraments, and liturgy, prayers, etc. All these are part of what we have received and heard.

Along with the gospel of salvation, the Apostles also taught the “rule of faith”, which is about the structure and functioning of the Church, the Household of God.

" In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without favor, doing nothing from partiality.1 Tim 5:21

What happened in the Reformation is that these “rules” were abandoned when objection to the authority occurred. Since that time, that abandoment of the rule of Apostolic Faith has continued, until now there is an aggressive hostility toward the Apostolic Succession.

Is Tradition limited to these two things; or are there other doctrines, which are also part of Tradition? Ones such as veneration of Mary, Sunday observance, Peter as the first Pope; etc?

Sacred Tradition encompasses an entire way of life. It is about a way of being in the world. Yes, it includes the doctrines of the Church as well.

"For you yourselves know how you ought to imitate us; 2 Thess 3:7

“Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.”
Heb 13:7

“…to give you in our conduct an example to imitate.” 2 Thess 3:9

 

[guanophore]

Are we talking about the same kind of “Tradition” here? I am referring to what Catholics class as divinely inspired Tradition, as opposed to “traditions” in your various congregations. Tradition is supposed to be (in Catholic teachings) equal to “The Word of God” as a part of the whole? Therefore; I am just trying to make sure I know exactly what it is made up of.

I have, of course, known about Sunday Observance, and it’s history; but I am trying to find out if it is classed as “divinely inspired” “Tradition?”

Teachings that come from Jesus are considered “divinely inspired”, yes. Jesus started this Tradition by rising on Sunday, then appearing to the Apostles on Sunday, Ascending to Heaven on Sunday, and pouring out the HS on Sunday. In the NT we can see that the Apostles gathered “on the first day of the week” (Sunday).

Also; regarding Mary, perhaps it was the wrong choice of words for me to say “veneration” thereof. You have stated how that “veneration” of “Mary” “was not required;” but what about some of the other Marian doctrines held by Catholics? Are they too “not required?”

Much of Marian experiences are part of private revelation, and those are not required. What God has revealed to us about Mary is required, the Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, and Assumption.

 

[guanophore]

Hey; don’t feel bad. I was thinking that your posts were quite helpful. I could be wrong; but it seems to me that Catholics in general, perhaps don’t study in depth about what Tradition actually is - that is, “essential tradition” which is divinely inspired.

This is a sad truth. I can attest to it, because it used to apply to me!

Where I was coming from was simply that if, as I posted earlier from Catholic sources, it is true that essential tradition is equal to the word of God; and if sacraments and liturgy constitute a part of Tradition; then it must all be connected, as a whole - as “The Word of God.” (in Catholic theology only).

Actually, this is not quite accurate. Catholic view The Word of God as Jesus. What he has spoken to us is life and truth. Part of His teaching was preserved in the Sacred Scriptures, part in Sacred Tradition, but both are considered “equal” expressions of the Word of God. Also, this is the same in the Orthodox faith.

This is what led me to believe that “Tradition” (essential) must consist of, (in addition to sacraments and liturgy), doctrines too, and thus, we should be able to post a list of said doctrines which are officially counted by the Catholic Church as “Tradition.” Tradition; as I understand it, is the un-written Word of God, and granted, much of this “tradition” is written out now, but originally, some doctrines were not exactly from the Holy Bible, they were indeed, spoken words, in the form of essential traditions. This is what I am trying to identify.

It is kinda like nailing jello to a wall. I can compare it to my studies in martial arts. I study a very traditional form of Okinawan Karate. There are forms, and there are some photos and descriptions available in writing. However, it is impossible to learn the way of the warrior from a book. One must study with a Master, and recieve the traditions and forms as they have been passed down through the centuries. One can supplement one’s learning by reading the books, but it is being present in the dojo, and working the forms with the Sensei that perfects one in the way of the open hand. If I asked my sensei for a “list” of essential points, he would laugh at me! He would tell me to keep coming to class.

I did not start to really become teachable until I got to black belt. This level is called “shodan” or “first”. It is a beginning point, at which one is considered to have learned enough of the basic elements to be able to learn. In my style, this takes 7-10 years.

In the Roman Rite, the period for initiation generally takes 9 months of Catechesis through the Rite of Christian Intitiation for Adults. Even after intiated, it is likely that the candidate would only have a basic knowledge of concepts.

 

[DebChris]

Catholic view [is] The Word of God as Jesus. What he has spoken to us is life and truth. Part of His teaching was preserved in the Sacred Scriptures, part in Sacred Tradition, but both are considered “equal” expressions of the Word of God. Also, this is the same in the Orthodox faith.

It is kinda like nailing jello to a wall. I can compare it to my studies in martial arts. I study a very traditional form of Okinawan Karate. There are forms, and there are some photos and descriptions available in writing. However, it is impossible to learn the way of the warrior from a book. One must study with a Master, and recieve the traditions and forms as they have been passed down through the centuries. One can supplement one’s learning by reading the books, but it is being present in the dojo, and working the forms with the Sensei that perfects one in the way of the open hand. If I asked my sensei for a “list” of essential points, he would laugh at me! He would tell me to keep coming to class.

I did not start to really become teachable until I got to black belt. This level is called “shodan” or “first”. It is a beginning point, at which one is considered to have learned enough of the basic elements to be able to learn. In my style, this takes 7-10 years.

In the Roman Rite, the period for initiation generally takes 9 months of Catechesis through the Rite of Christian Intitiation for Adults. Even after intiated, it is likely that the candidate would only have a basic knowledge of concepts.

We never, as individuals, have all the answers. Tome (#32) posts that the “non-essential” traditions give expression of our understanding of the Essential elements of our Faith. One of these “non-essential” traditions is the rosary.
The prayers of the rosary come directly from scripture. It involves meditating upon the life of Christ. The Apostle’s Creed summarizes the essential beliefs of our Christian faith. There have been slight variations to this prayer; the most recent is the addition of the Luminous mysteries by Pope John Paul II. St. Louis de Montfort would have those who choose to pray the rosary begin with “Most Holy Trinity, we offer you this Apostles’ Creed in honor of all the mysteries of our faith, this Our Father and these three Hail Marys in honor of the unity of your Essence and the Trinity of your persons. We ask of you a lively faith, a firm hope, and an ardent charity.
Our faith is one of relationship with Jesus Christ. We may read about Him in a book but we cannot truely know Him until we spend time in His Presence; until we are willing, like Mary, to sit at His feet and learn directly from Him.
The Word of God comes to us incarnated in human speech and not pre-packaged from heaven.
This morning I read about Brother John in the Flowers of St. Francis in which he has an encounter with Christ. This encounter begins with Brother John” weeping at His feet. He is pulled to the hands by grace." Finally he is pulled to the bosom of Christ in rapture and ectasy. Our relationship with God is often compared to that of lovers oblivious to the world when wrapped in one another’s embrace. We do not learn about each other in books but by spending time with one another.
It is in the Divinity of Christ that we are able to find our own humanity.

 

[po18guy]

Thankyou once again. My question:

What is the difference between “liturgy” and “sacrament?”

Here is an excelent definition of liturgy: newadvent.org/cathen/09306a.htm

Here is the definition of Sacraments: newadvent.org/cathen/13295a.htm

The SDA church has two Sacraments: Baptism and Marriage. Both are visible signs that bring God’s grace, right? Catholics have the original seven (those, plus Confirmation, Reconcilliation, the Eucharist, Annointing of the sick and Holy Orders).

New Advent is easily capable of answering even theologian’s questions to completion. For a nobody like me, their site is illuminating.

Christ’s peace.