Scripture does not interpret itself

[Prodigal_Son1]

Matthew 28: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.​

If Jesus commanded the disciples things and then told them to teach us to observe the same things, seems they are to us as well. If they aren’t for us then why tell the disciples to teach us to observe the same things Jesus commanded them? See my dilema?

Christ taught them to appoint/ordain others, but nowhere in scriptures do they tell us to appoint/ordain ourselves. See my dilemma?

He commanded them to teach us all things. Where does scriptures tell us that scriptures are to teach us all things?

I’ve explained this many times and will attempt it only once more.

We are lucky that the scriptures were written, because we can see the teachings they are to teach us. We do not see anywhere in scriptures that they taught us to perform sacraments on our own. The example I provided, from Paul to the Corinthians, specifically states God set men in the Church and he named them in order, of first, second, third and so on.

Now, for the real dilemmas, show me where the scriptures tell us that scriptures are the ONLY authority? Show me where scriptures tell us to specifically interpret scriptures for ourselves? Show us how to overcome Peter’s warning of the unlearned, unstable and unwise wresting scriptures, even to their own destruction?

Protestants take instructions from Christ to the men He appointed/ordained and apply them to themself so they can justify interpreting scriptures. I’m sorry, but that is taking scriptures out of context to fit a theology. The proof is in the many interpretations from people, ALL claiming guidance from the same Holy Spirit. There can only be ONE correct interpretation. That means there are many unlearned, unstable and unwise interpretations in the mix.

Now let’s look at the verse you’re presenting.

**Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world. **

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you…to teach them. We are not all taught to perform baptisms, marriages, holy orders, communion, annointing the sick, confirmations, and reconciliations.

When He told the men of the Church He would be with them until the consummation of the world, He was speaking to the authority of His Church, men who were mortal men and would eventually die. He was speaking to His Church. He did not say, ‘behold I am with you and all generations of people all days, even to the consummation of the world’. He is with us, through His Church.

**Joh 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written. **

 

[Dokimas]

No, the other side is: ‘Because I’ve studied church history, read the ECFs, seen the witness of the Saints, read the Bible, examined the Catechism and Council teachings and as consequence, I now believe that the CC was founded and preserved by Jesus Christ and His teachings were passed on to the Apostle both in word and letter to the Church. Thus, I believe what my church teaches is true.’ Yep, there are three posibilities. How many that go to church actually study for themselves, CC or PC?

It’s not as if one becomes a Catholic that he loses in his intellect. Who said that’s true? However, what do you do when you find the Bible says things that contradicts the teaching of the CC? Not to mention, you’d be hard pressed to prove St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine are anti-intellectuals by any means. Don’t want to. Just goes to prove what Jesus said, that some truths are hid from the wise and learned. When one puts on the mind of Christ, his intellect is strengthened. IMO, the difference here is a matter of authority, not intellect.

If dissent is the proof of intellect, then please dissent from your Christian denomination and believe in the Immaculate Conception or put the Gospel of Thomas in your Bible and prove to us your intellectual worth. I don’t believe everything I’ve been taught if I see things differently in the Bible. BTW, who said I have any intellect?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Just goes to prove what Jesus said, that some truths are hid from the wise and learned.

**Joh 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.

Joh 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.**

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

However, what do you do when you find the Bible says things that contradicts the teaching of the CC?

There are no contradictions. Care to give us an example of a contradiction?

Since you call it a contradiction, show us something the Bible speaks against that you believe we’re doing incorrectly.

 

[MartinJordan]

Hi Dokimas,

Can you clarify what you mean by : “I don’t believe everything I’ve been taught if I see things differently in the Bible”.

Thanks.

MJ

 

[wmscott]

There are no contradictions. Care to give us an example of a contradiction?

Since you call it a contradiction, show us something the Bible speaks against that you believe we’re doing incorrectly.

Hi Prodigal Son1, could it be that Dokimas and others like him represent the Protestant view “that some of them hold” and that is they limit God and try contain him in a box. They put human constraints and conditions on Him. They fail to see that God transcends all of mankind’s finite wisdom an knowledge. To do otherwise is to admit that the Catholic Church is right, and that just does not fit into their personal brand of theology.

 

[AmericanJosiah]

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**Well, The Catholic Church and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints both do, in spite of the reality that Jesus never so much as even mentioned either one of them. **

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The Catholic Church received it’s authority from Christ, as written in scriptures and being discussed right now.

1. Reality check: Everyone who has ever read the New Testament KNOWS that Jesus never so much as even MENTIONED The Catholic Church. At all. Ever. He never authorized it for anything. He never promised it anything. In any context. For anything. About anything. Concerning anything. Even completely in passing about nothing at all. I know that. YOU know that. The REALITY is Jesus mentioned The Catholic Church EXACTLY as often and for EXACTLY the same things as He did The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. None.
2. You can keep posting that He did so and Scripture says it, just as Mormons do, but friend, it doesn’t make it anymore true for you than it does for the LDS. Friend, there ARE no Scriptures to discuss on this because there ARE no Scriptures where Jesus founds any denomination or where He even so much as merely MENTIONS The Catholic Church and we both know that. Can we move on? Can we discuss this with some honesty?
3. Friend, if I posted “Jesus said that I’m the most handsome guy in the world” your next (and mandated) question would be, “where?” If I responded, "Well, actually, Jesus never so much as mentioned me and He never once even used the word “handsome” - I just have a hunch you’d either laugh at loud or simply regard my position as unworthy of consideration, but perhaps I’m wrong.

**
IMHO, Jesus DID promise some things to BELIEVERS. You can - textually - argue that He promised and authorized those things ONLY to THOSE specific individuals. But then we may not teach (making both you and I in violation of His authorization since we’re both teaching), we may not Baptize or evangelize, and we should not pray the Lord’s Prayer. The much, much bigger “problem” is to deny that He promised these things to BELIEVERS (who ARE mentioned) and instead promised them solely, exclusively and particularly to some entity such as The Catholic Church or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (which, of course, are NOT mentioned). **

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Does your opinion have authority?

It’s hard to have a discussion if you in no sense respond to what you quote from me.

Now, if you want to play that game, you can believe the word Lutheran is not in the Bible.

It’s not. No one claimed it is. But then I’m not taking the position that Scripture teaches that Jesus founded The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (specificially, particularly, exclusively) and it (and it exclusively and perpetually) is infallibe, incapable of error (in these matters) unaccountable for what it teaches, exempt from norming, and whatever it alone says is just to be accepted with docility: cuz Jesus said so.

… continues in the next post

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[AmericanJosiah]

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… continuing the post above

kata holos kat-ah’ hol’-o Catholic is an adjective derived from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning “universal”.

Yes. It’s a grammatical mistake to capitolize adjectives, as you repeatedly have done (in typical modern Catholic fashion when communicating in English). Read your snippets that The Catholic Church chooses from the authors The Catholic Church chooses as The Catholic Church interprets - and correct the grammar - and suddenly, it’s position vanishes.

See, you try and split hairs. The Holy Spirit is for ALL of us, but we were not all appointed/ordained to a position of authority

I agree, but then how does that substantiate that The Holy Spirit only guides The Catholic Church or that The Catholic Church is infallible and unaccountable follower? Or that The Holy Spirit only teaches The Catholic Church and that The Catholic Church exclusively is always and perpetually an infallible student? And where does it state that teachers are infallible/unaccountable? Did you know that Jesus often warns us to beware of false teachers? Did you know that Jesus praised the Ephesian Christians for doing what The Catholic Church forbids, considering teachers as accountable, testing/norming them, and finding them false?

1Co 12:25 That there might be no schism in the body: but the members might be mutually careful one for another.
1Co 12:26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it: or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ and members of member.
1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all doctors?
1Co 12:30 Are all workers of miracles? Have all the grace of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But be zealous for the better gifts. And I shew unto you yet a more excellent way.

Wonderful, true and important words! And it says NOTHING about The Catholic Church being infallible, unaccountable and exempt from norming. Or that we are to just accept whatever a teacher says with docility, as God speaking.

I have researched the answers through scriptures and Tradition as recorded by the early Church fathers. After the research, I made a faith decision to accept Church teachings.

Then you are violating what The Catholic Church requires (CCC 87 for example) and you are what my Deacon so loudly denounced as a “Protestant hiding in the Church” and what he felt is the greatest danger ever faced by the Church.

And, I’m curious, if you believe the doctrines of The Catholic Church are normed by Scripture and Tradition (and I agree with you 95% of the time there), then why are you fighting so very, very hard that The Catholic Church be exempted from norming and that whatever it alone says rather just be accepted with docility? I’m now curious if you are one of those “Protestants hiding in the Church” I was so warned about in my Catholic days. But, I doubt you mean what you said - that you’ve concluded that all 2,875 points of my Catechism are normed by Scripture and Tradition as any Protestant would “read” your post. I suspect what you mean is that you accept The Catholic Church’s arbitration of itself based on the Scripture in the heart of The Catholic Church as interpreted by The Catholic Church (CCC 113, 85) and especially according to the norm of the Tradition of The Catholic Church as chosen, defined and interpreted by The Catholic Church so that The Catholic Chuch determined that The Catholic Church agrees with the interpretation of The Catholic Church of the Scriptures in the heart of The Catholic Chruch and the Tradition as chosen and interpreted by The Catholic Church, ie that it itself agrees with it itself. But that’s a norming rejected by The Catholic Church so I don’t think you would be defending it.

In any case, you are to accept whatever it alone says “with docility.” The Handbook of The Catholic Faith begins the chapter on authority with this very revealing sentence, “When someone asks the Catholic where he finds substance for what he is taught, the answer is: from the teaching authority of The Catholic Church. This authority consists of the Pope and the bishops associated with him. For the Catholic, there is no need to investigate these issues, for he lives in quiet assurance in what he is taught, for Christ himself said, ‘Whoever hears you, hears me’.” (page 137) Read your official Catechism # 87.

Thank you.

Pax

• Josiah

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[Prodigal_Son1]

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• Josiah

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You can continue the condescending tone with someone else. You can continue the juvenile repeated arguements with someone else. I’m shaking the dust from my feet and hope you can get over whatever caused your personal grudge against the Catholic Church.

 

[wmscott]

You can continue the condescending tone with someone else. You can continue the juvenile repeated arguements with someone else. I’m shaking the dust from my feet and hope you can get over whatever caused your personal grudge against the Catholic Church.

In the attachment is an excerpt from the web site listed within. I found this to be some interesting thoughts and addresses some of what has been said in this thread and others like it. Sounds like the Catholic Church to me.

The link in the attachment goes to the full text of what I have only taken a small portion of.

 

[Dancelittleewok]

Question for Josiah: Do you believe that CC is a cult?

 

[wmscott]

Question for Josiah: Do you believe that CC is a cult?

I don’t think the Josiah, at least I hope he doesn’t, think that the catholic Church is a cult. I think he is just toting the party (Reformist) line. Hence his tone and obstinate persistence in error in the face of factual evidence with regards to some of his arguments. On the bright side he is at least consistent in his beliefs if nothing else.

 

[Dokimas]

Hi Prodigal Son1, could it be that Dokimas and others like him represent the Protestant view “that some of them hold” and that is they limit God and try contain him in a box. They put human constraints and conditions on Him. They fail to see that God transcends all of mankind’s finite wisdom an knowledge. To do otherwise is to admit that the Catholic Church is right, and that just does not fit into their personal brand of theology.

I don’t think I limit God. I surely don’t limit God to the CC being the one and only church.

 

[Dokimas]

Hi Dokimas,

Can you clarify what you mean by : “I don’t believe everything I’ve been taught if I see things differently in the Bible”.

Thanks.

MJ

Sure. I believe Melchizadeck was Jesus revealing Himself in the OT .​

I don’t think Paul was speaking about himself when he spoke of someone he knew that was taken up into Heaven.

 

[Dokimas]

Hi Prodigal Son1, could it be that Dokimas and others like him represent the Protestant view “that some of them hold” and that is they limit God and try contain him in a box. They put human constraints and conditions on Him. They fail to see that God transcends all of mankind’s finite wisdom an knowledge. I do understand God’s wisdom is far, far, far superior to ours. To do otherwise is to admit that the Catholic Church is right, and that just does not fit into their personal brand of theology.

 

[wmscott]

What I am trying to say is that from a my perspective, “Some” Protestants refuse to acknowledge Catholic positions regarding Sacred Tradition and the Magisterium, to name just two, as being valid or based in Sacred Scripture. The Protestant position is to argue that it is not in the Bible. To me, and this is just my opinion, this is limiting God. It’s just you and maybe one or two other Protestants here on this thread and this is why I pointed you out.

 

[schaick]

Scripture states that it is insufficient of itself as an interpreter but rather needs an interpreter

You could say that the Bible interpretes itself in that -

No interpretation can go against any other verse in the Bible.

The definitions of words must be used in context of Biblical times.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

There are no contradictions. Care to give us an example of a contradiction?

Since you call it a contradiction, show us something the Bible speaks against that you believe we’re doing incorrectly.

How can the bible contradict the church that wrote it.

Matthew

 

[Dokimas]

There are no contradictions. Care to give us an example of a contradiction?

Since you call it a contradiction, show us something the Bible speaks against that you believe we’re doing incorrectly.

Infant baptism

 

[schaick]

I don’t think the Josiah, at least I hope he doesn’t, think that the catholic Church is a cult. I think he is just toting the party (Reformist) line. Hence his tone and obstinate persistence in error in the face of factual evidence with regards to some of his arguments. On the bright side he is at least consistent in his beliefs if nothing else.

I have a few Christians friends that believe Catholism is a cult. One of them gave me the book “A Woman Rides the Beast”. It is very interesting.

If you think you might be in a cult, ask yourself these questions-

Do you have one powerful human leader?

Have you been forced into submission?

Does your leader teach the Jesus of the Holy Bible?

Does your leader teach good works in place of the Gospel of Jesus?

Does the leaders word/teachings absolute truth and over shadow GOD’s Word?

Have you been encouraged to leave your family?

Does your leader teach that there is no salvation outside your group?