Scripture seems to suggest only the Apostles could pass on gifts by laying on of hands

[ByzCathCantor]

It doesn’t but simple arithmetic tells me that if you go around saying that there are twelve apostles which the Catechism of the Catholic Church states specifically in several places, and scripture tells me that at the sending forth of the Apostles at the great commission there were only eleven apostles and then scripture tells me, no less than ten times, that Paul was an Apostle and also chosen as well as sent by God, then 11 +1 =12.

I’ll let the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, speak to the point:
General Audience (18 Oct 2006) - Judas Iscariot and Matthias

In conclusion, we want to remember he who, after Easter, was elected in place of the betrayer. In the Church of Jerusalem two were proposed to the community, and then lots were cast for their names: “Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias” (Acts 1: 23).

Precisely the latter was chosen, hence, “he was enrolled with the eleven apostles” (Acts 1: 26). We know nothing else about him, if not that he had been a witness to all Jesus’ earthly events (cf. Acts 1: 21-22), remaining faithful to him to the end. To the greatness of his fidelity was later added the divine call to take the place of Judas, almost compensating for his betrayal.

 

[inkaneer]

I’ll let the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI, speak to the point:
[[/URLGeneral Audience (18 Oct 2006) - Judas Iscariot and Matthias

Quote:
In conclusion, we want to remember he who, after Easter, was elected in place of the betrayer. In the Church of Jerusalem two were proposed to the community, and then lots were cast for their names: “Joseph called Barsabbas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias” (Acts 1: 23).

Precisely the latter was chosen, hence, “he was enrolled with the eleven apostles” (Acts 1: 26). We know nothing else about him, if not that he had been a witness to all Jesus’ earthly events (cf. Acts 1: 21-22), remaining faithful to him to the end. To the greatness of his fidelity was later added the divine call to take the place of Judas, almost compensating for his betrayal.
]](http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/b...006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061018_en.html)

Where does Pope Benedict say Matthias was an Apostle? All the pope says was Matthias was "enrolled with the 11 aposltes. I agreebut he was enrolled as a bishop as all the apostles were bishops. Then there is the problem of infallibility. The Pope’s weekly audiences are not usually considered opportunities for infallible statements. Now unless you have something that says this was an infallible statement then you still have the problem that the Pope does not state Matthias was an apostle.

And one more thing the same Greek word that is translated as “enrolled” is also translated as “numbered with”. That word is used in two verses in the NT. One is Acts 1:26which you claim means Matthias was an apostle the other verse is Mr 15:28 which speaks of jesus:

“And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith ,And he was numbered with the transgressors.”

So if being numbered with the apostles makes Matthias an apostle then being numbered with transgressors makes Jesus a transgressor. Your logic fails miserably.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Where does Pope Benedict say Matthias was an Apostle?

I can only cite the transcript, but cannot compel anyone to read it.

What about Barnabas? Is he not the one who presented Paul? Is he not referred to as Apostle, together with Paul, in Scripture?

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 14:13[/BIBLEDRB]

BTW - I am always happy to exchange ideas here, to learn, and even be corrected when my understanding is failing. That’s part of the value of this forum - it provides an opportunity to grow in faith and understanding. I try, surely failing on occasion, to do so charitably, without insulting the traditions or basic intelligence of others. I’m happy to carry on this exhange, but will not do so if the present tone does not revert to something more charitable.

 

[inkaneer]

I can only cite the transcript, but cannot compel anyone to read it.

What about Barnabas? Is he not the one who presented Paul? Is he not referred to as Apostle, together with Paul, in Scripture?

[BIBLEDRB]Acts 14:13[/BIBLEDRB]

BTW - I am always happy to exchange ideas here, to learn, and even be corrected when my understanding is failing. That’s part of the value of this forum - it provides an opportunity to grow in faith and understanding. I try, surely failing on occasion, to do so charitably, without insulting the traditions or basic intelligence of others. I’m happy to carry on this exhange, but will not do so if the present tone does not revert to something more charitable.

Paul is an Apostle called by Christ as were the other eleven. Barnabas was not called by Christ. He is an apostle in the generic sense as any missionary today is and as we all are supposed to be. But to be an Apostle of Jesus Christ one has to be called by and sent by Jesus Christ. Judas was called by Christ but never sent. Neither Matthias nor Barnabas were called or sent by Christ. Paul was both called by and sent by Christ and scripture even calls him an Apostle of Christ.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

A distinguishing characteristic of all the Apostles (capital “A”), the Twelve, is that they all were personal witnesses to the complete ministry of Christ.

The Catholic Church, as does Holy Scripture, refer to others as “apostles”. Indeed, there are churches consecrated in their names (e.g. St. Barnabas the Apostle Roman Catholic Church).

One of the lectionary readings for June 11th, 2012 (his feast day) was headed Memorial of Saint Barnabas, Apostle in the USCCB online lectionary.

In it’s entry for St. Barnabas, the EWTN catalog of the saints describes him as “styled an Apostle in Holy Scripture, and, like St. Paul, ranked by the Church with the Twelve, though not one of them”.

The EWTN entry is telling in terms of the dual meaning of Apostle as used by the Church (the Twelve, and those sent out by the Twelve, the Seventy, including Barnabas and Paul).

This does not make St. Paul any less important than the Twelve. His faith was not based on the witness of Christ’s ministry, but on personal revelation and conversion. It is he who leads the evangelization of the Gentiles, and in many ways is uniquely qualified to do so. Yet, as is clearly known and understood, he was hostile to Christians until his conversion, and was not an original witness to the faith, yet a witness to the Truth nonetheless by virtue of his conversion by Christ.

 

[inkaneer]

A distinguishing characteristic of all the Apostles (capital “A”), the Twelve, is that they all were personal witnesses to the complete ministry of Christ.

In Acts 1 when Peter calls for someone to fill the bishopric vacated by Judas’ he says this:

“21 So one of the men who have accompanied us during all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John until the day when he was taken up from us–one of these men must become with us a witness to his resurrection.” [Acts 1:21,22] [RSV]

Peter sees an immediate need to fill Judas’ office. But there are no seminaries yet to train someone. So whoever is to be selected has to have received the necessary knowledge the way the Apostles did by following Christ throughout His ministry. But this was not something that was unique to the Apostles. Indeed, Jesus had a lot more followers than just the Apostles. The fact that two names were put forth for consideration indicates that.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

It may indicate that there were many followers besides Jesus–it does not indicate that other than these two that any others had been followers the WHOLE time of Jesus’ ministry.

People need to get over the notion that there are only 12 apostles–Barnabas is an apostle–who’s to say that he wasn’t also personally called by Jesus like St. Paul?

There is only ONE TWELVE that will be judges–THE twelve.

And yes Matthias is of that 12.

Look–St. Paul other than St. Peter is one of the foremost of the apostles.

But are you going to tell me that the other apostle Simon is more prominent than Barnabas? We know more about Barnabas than Simon the Zealot–that doesn’t mean that therefore that Barnabas is one of THE TWELVE.

Apostle doesn’t mean THE TWELVE.

You have to be an apostle to be of THE TWELVE but just because you’re an apostle doesn’t mean you’re THE TWELVE.

I think some people think that JESUS had to personally pick THE TWELVE. They can’t fathom the possibility that He would give such an enormous perogative as that to His church.

Look–if the church can change the day of the Sabbath then deciding who is of THE TWELVE is tiddly winks!

The church CHOSE!

And if you don’t like it that they didn’t choose St. Paul but chose a figure that we currently know little about–GET OVER THAT TOO!

Jesus said “the first will be last and the last will be first”. That applies to all the great work that the apostle Paul did–it also applies to THE TWELVE including such apostles as Matthias and Simon the Zealot that we know little about!

 

[inkaneer]

It may indicate that there were many followers besides Jesus–it does not indicate that other than these two that any others had been followers the WHOLE time of Jesus’ ministry.

People need to get over the notion that there are only 12 apostles–Barnabas is an apostle–who’s to say that he wasn’t also personally called by Jesus like St. Paul?

There is only ONE TWELVE that will be judges–THE twelve.

And yes Matthias is of that 12.

Look–St. Paul other than St. Peter is one of the foremost of the apostles.

But are you going to tell me that the other apostle Simon is more prominent than Barnabas? We know more about Barnabas than Simon the Zealot–that doesn’t mean that therefore that Barnabas is one of THE TWELVE.

Apostle doesn’t mean THE TWELVE.

You have to be an apostle to be of THE TWELVE but just because you’re an apostle doesn’t mean you’re THE TWELVE.

I think some people think that JESUS had to personally pick THE TWELVE. They can’t fathom the possibility that He would give such an enormous perogative as that to His church.

Look–if the church can change the day of the Sabbath then deciding who is of THE TWELVE is tiddly winks!

The church CHOSE!

And if you don’t like it that they didn’t choose St. Paul but chose a figure that we currently know little about–GET OVER THAT TOO!

Jesus said “the first will be last and the last will be first”. That applies to all the great work that the apostle Paul did–it also applies to THE TWELVE including such apostles as Matthias and Simon the Zealot that we know little about!

But can the church defy scripture? If scripture calls Paul an Apostle ten times [which it does] can the church contradict scripture? I do not think the Holy Spirit would allow it, at least not doctrinally. The Apostles laid hands on Matthias. That is the same way bishops are consecrated today. Jesus never laid hands on the Apostles.

It is interesting that you quoted Jesus saying:

"“the first will be last and the last will be first”.

That saying occurs in Mt 19:30 as:

“But many that are first will be last, and the last first.”

But if you look just a couple of verses before that you will find Jesus telling the Apostles that they would sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel:

" Jesus said to them, “Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of man shall sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.” [Mt 19:28] RSV]

Now are we going to have a heavenly game of musical chairs in heaven or are we going to admit that the Apostles will be the ones sitting on those thrones and judging Israel? And according to scripture Paul is one of them.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Notice–at that point in time–Jesus said that “you who HAVE followed me”–at that point in time Paul HAD NOT been following Jesus–and at that time Matthias HAD–

so–if that verse is correct–then Matthias–NOT Paul would qualify as one of those TWELVE judges!

Matthew 19:28 PROVES it can’t be Paul!

Acts 1:22 PROVES that it CAN be Matthias!

 

[SonCatcher]

I don’t think we need to devolve into a debate on conjugation here.

Besides, are not all positions in Eternity “not mine to give but are for those whom these places have been prepared”?

 

[Godfollower]

It doesn’t but simple arithmetic tells me that if you go around saying that there are twelve apostles which the Catechism of the Catholic Church states specifically in several places, and scripture tells me that at the sending forth of the Apostles at the great commission there were only eleven apostles and then scripture tells me, no less than ten times, that Paul was an Apostle and also chosen as well as sent by God, then 11 +1 =12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
As for the seventy, nowhere does scripture call them apostles. That is something the Eastern Church concocted.

Scripture does not call these people apostles. The Eastern Church refers to them as the “minor apostles” but the Western Church, as well as scripture, affords them no such title. Notice that Luke records these people going out in chapter 10 but in chapter 9 Luke records Jesus sending out the twelve apostles by themselves. Obviously Luke differentiates between those who he calls Apostles in Chapter 9 and these other 70 disciples he speaks of in chapter 10.

Let’s check Scripture, shall we?

And the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, Philip and Bartholomew, Thomas and Matthew the publican, and James the son of Alpheus, and Thaddeus, Simon the Cananean, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Matthew 10:2.

And when day was come, he called unto him his disciples; and he chose twelve of them (whom also he named apostles). Simon, whom he surnamed Peter, and Andrew his brother, James and John, Philip and Bartholomew, Matthew and Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who is called Zelotes, And Jude, the brother of James, and Judas Iscariot, who was the traitor.

Luke 6:13-16.

And they called Barnabas, Jupiter: but Paul, Mercury; because he was chief speaker. The priest also of Jupiter that was before the city, bringing oxen and garlands before the gate, would have offered sacrifice with the people. Which, when the apostles Barnabas and Paul had heard, rending their clothes, they leaped out among the people, crying, And saying: Ye men, why do ye these things? We also are mortals, men like unto you, preaching to you to be converted from these vain things, to the living God, who made the heaven, and the earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them: Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

Acts 14:11-15 (emphasis added).

Salute Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners: who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Romans 16:7.

But I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother and fellow labourer, and fellow soldier, but your apostle, and he that hath ministered to my wants.

Phillippians 2:25.

So the original Twelve – including Judas – were Apostles. Paul was also an Apostle, as was Barnabas. So were Andronicus and Junias, as well as Epaphroditus.

That’s more than Twelve.

Add in the addition of Matthias to take Judas’ “ministry and apostleship,” and you’re at eighteen.

And they appointed two, Joseph, called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place. And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Acts 1:23-26 (emphasis added).

 

[inkaneer]

Notice–at that point in time–Jesus said that “you who HAVE followed me”–at that point in time Paul HAD NOT been following Jesus–and at that time Matthias HAD–

so–if that verse is correct–then Matthias–NOT Paul would qualify as one of those TWELVE judges!

Matthew 19:28 PROVES it can’t be Paul!

Acts 1:22 PROVES that it CAN be Matthias!

But Judas was still a follower at that time so your logic would say that Judas occupies one of the thrones not Matthias. So your conclusion is flawed.

But Romans 1:1 says Paul was called to be an Apostle:

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God”

And 1 Timothy 1:1 says his Apostleship was commanded by God:

“Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,”

Now if you can come up with a scripture that says the same about Matthias then you might have something but as for me I am not going to argue with something commanded by God.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Tomorrow’s block on the Byzantine Liturgical Calendar (for August 9th) reads:

Matthias
Apostle

From the Menaion:

The holy apostle Matthias, who had followed the Lord Jesus since his baptism by John to that day when Christ was assumed into heaven. After the Ascension of the Lord, he was chosen by the Apostles to take the place of the traitor Judas so that, numbered among the Twelve, he might become a witness of the resurrection.

The troparion of the feast of St. Matthias

O Holy Apostle Matthias, intercede with the merciful God that He may grant our souls forgiveness of sins.

 

[inkaneer]

Tomorrow’s block on the Byzantine Liturgical Calendar (for August 9th) reads:

From the Menaion:

The troparion of the feast of St. Matthias

Are you offering these as infallible doctrinal statements or just prayers made up by fallible men? Scripture states emphatically that Peter asked for someone to take over the office episkope] vacated by Judas. There are only three offices in the church and they are Bishop, Priest and Deacon. There is no office in the Church of Apostle.

 

[SonCatcher]

Are you offering these as infallible doctrinal statements or just prayers made up by fallible men? Scripture states emphatically that Peter asked for someone to take over the office episkope] vacated by Judas. There are only three offices in the church and they are Bishop, Priest and Deacon. There is no office in the Church of Apostle.

The Latin Office also records St. Matthias as an Apostle (although his feast is celebrated on Feb 24 in the West).

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The Latin Office also records St. Matthias as an Apostle (although his feast is celebrated on Feb 24 in the West).

Actually, the “normal” feast day is May 14th on the Roman Calendar, but also observed on Feb 24th (now 25th) on leap years (the old leap day) per the General Roman Calendar (as well as in the Episcopal and Lutheran Churches), symbolizing that it was he who “filled the void” among the Twelve.

But then again, all is the judgment of the fallible in Rome and elsewhere …

 

[ByzCathCantor]

The Latin Office also records St. Matthias as an Apostle (although his feast is celebrated on Feb 24 in the West).

From the Magnificat in the cited online breviary:

O God, who didst join blessed Matthias to the company of thine Apostles, grant, we beseech thee, that by his intercession we may ever be aware of the depths of thy goodness round about us.

That somehow sounds oddly familiar …

O Holy Apostle Matthias, intercede with the merciful God that He may grant our souls forgiveness of sins.

 

[Godfollower]

Are you offering these as infallible doctrinal statements or just prayers made up by fallible men? Scripture states emphatically that Peter asked for someone to take over the office episkope] vacated by Judas. There are only three offices in the church and they are Bishop, Priest and Deacon. There is no office in the Church of Apostle.

Really?

And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, To take the place of this ministry and apostleship [Greek *Apostoles

], from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.
Acts 1:24-25.

 

[ByzCathCantor]

Really? Acts 1:24-25.

λαβεῖν τὸν τόπον τῆς διακονίας ταύτης καὶ ἀποστολῆς, ἀφ’ ἧς παρέβη Ἰούδας πορευθῆναι εἰς τὸν τόπον τὸν ἴδιον.

Is from the Greek …

 

[kentuckyliz]

If you have the opportunity, you should do a conference with Damien Stayne. I did one this summer, Word Power, and he taught us more about healing and prophecy and we practiced it. I received a healing! Lots of other people did too. Also, in the past, the Lord has worked healing through my praying over someone in faith. No Apostle or successor of an Apostle (i.e. bishop) laid hands on me to ordain me ot this ministry. The Church accepts these charisms as legitimate. In fact, the Church since Leo XIII in the 19th century has been praying for a New Pentecost and it’s been happening.

Ducking now because the traditionalists will start throwing the rotten tomatoes. Doesn’t matter…I’m still walking without a cane!!!