Scripture verses JWs have problems with?

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arius325 said:
Reply,

A gross mistake by many is that they assume that the bible is of the Catholic Church! The bible belongs to God and he is the one who inspired it and that at the hands of Jews! The bible is of Jewish origin and not Catholic, as the Catholics did not exist when the bible was written!
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Wrong! If the Bible is not a Catholic book,then tell me which church canonized it and owned it? The OT was written by Jews for Jews and the NT was written by Christians for Christians. It is not a question of God inspiring it,but a question HOW did God do it? He used His Church to give us a one volume Bible containing the OT/NT.

Time to learn history and stop going off your false perceptions.
 
Okay…then answer this question:

Provide the chapter and verse where St. Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark…repeat…chapter and verse…not your personal opinion and the Table of contents and title are excluded (these were put in later).

Once you locate the chapter and verse, then provide the answer to this:

How do you know the Gospel of Mark should be part of Scripture? Why do you accept it as such? How do you know it is the right Gospel in the Bible today and how do you know it is the right Mark and not just anybody named Mark who wrote the Gospel of Mark?
 
But it depends Which kingdom Hall, doesn’t it? KH is not a unified belief system, is it? It’s teachings about and in the Bible are very different from ours. Correct me How i’m mistaken, please.
 
pablope said:
Okay…then answer this question:

Provide the chapter and verse where St. Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark…repeat…chapter and verse…not your personal opinion and the Table of contents and title are excluded (these were put in later).

Once you locate the chapter and verse, then provide the answer to this:

How do you know the Gospel of Mark should be part of Scripture? Why do you accept it as such? How do you know it is the right Gospel in the Bible today and how do you know it is the right Mark and not just anybody named Mark who wrote the Gospel of Mark?
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Here is a tougher one:

Chapter and verse where it mentions a 27 NT canon or a one volume Bible?
 
pablope said:
Okay…then answer this question:

Provide the chapter and verse where St. Mark claims authorship of the Gospel of Mark…repeat…chapter and verse…not your personal opinion and the Table of contents and title are excluded (these were put in later).

Once you locate the chapter and verse, then provide the answer to this:

How do you know the Gospel of Mark should be part of Scripture? Why do you accept it as such? How do you know it is the right Gospel in the Bible today and how do you know it is the right Mark and not just anybody named Mark who wrote the Gospel of Mark?
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Reply,

Part I

This is typical rhetoric and polemic, when one cannot answer and proves absolutely nothing!

2 Tim 3:16 NASB (Catholic Edition)

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness…”

"How do you know the Gospel of Mark should be part of Scripture? Why do you accept it as such? How do you know it is the right Gospel in the Bible today and how do you know it is the right Mark and not just anybody named Mark who wrote the Gospel of Mark?"

As Mark was a very close companion to Peter and accompanied him…Peter was one of the eye witnesses to much of what Jesus did and said, so it comes as no surprise that Mark would have recorded much of Peter’s personal experiences from the lips of Peter, as he was telling him about the Christ; Mark imparts important (synoptic) details, that the others gospels do not record, about 7%, e.g. Marks records details such as, about the ‘hired men that worked for Zebedee, the man demonised, who kept on slashing himself with stones and an important prophesy about the (Jesus) ‘coming of the Son of man with great power and glory’ when he was on the mountain of Olives and looking on at the temple, within his (Jesus’) sight etc!

Several years ago, one of our WT readers asked in a similar vein, what you have asked and here is part of the reply:

“Since Mark evidently wrote primarily for the Romans, he most likely did his writing in Rome. Both earliest tradition and the contents of the book allow for the conclusion that it was composed in Rome during either the first or the second imprisonment of the apostle Paul, and hence during the years 60-65 C.E. In those years Mark was in Rome at least once, and likely twice. All the leading authorities of the second and third centuries confirm that Mark was the writer. The Gospel was already in circulation among Christians by the middle of the second century. Its appearance in all the early catalogues of the Christian Greek Scriptures confirms the authenticity of Mark’s Gospel.

Continued in Part II
 
Part II

However, the long and short conclusions that are sometimes added after chapter 16, verse 8, are not to be regarded as authentic. They are missing in most of the ancient manuscripts, such as the Sinaitic and the Vatican No. 1209. The fourth-century scholars Eusebius and Jerome are in agreement that the authentic record closes with the words “they were in fear.” The other conclusions were probably added with a view to smoothing over the abruptness with which the Gospel ends.*

That Mark’s account is accurate is to be seen from the full harmony of his Gospel not only with the other Gospels but also with all the Holy Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. Moreover, Jesus is shown again and again as one having authority not only in his spoken word but over the forces of nature, over Satan and the demons, over sickness and disease, yes, over death itself. So Mark opens his narrative with the impressive introduction: “The beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ.” His coming and ministry meant “good news,” and hence the study of Mark’s Gospel must be beneficial to all readers. The events described by Mark cover the period from spring 29 C.E. to spring 33 C.E.”

What Catholics and others are not told?
  • In the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE “Christian” scribes/copyists began to take liberties with the copies they were making and alterations (additions and deletions) began to take place with copies for either political or theological reasons, as there were several Parties/Groups vying for prominence and all claimed to be orthodox and claimed descent and authority from the apostles of Christ and one of those Parties, was what came to be called the “proto-orthodox” Party, as they began to claim the most pagan converts and this emerging and powerfully growing Party in time came to be called the Catholic Party (the Universalists) and in the end won the day and began to claim for itself true Orthodoxy and won the day in the end, because it literally had the most pagan converts, who were allowed to bring along and use their customs and symbols (one being the cross, of which there were many of…!)
In order for this Party to gain favour and respect from (especially) the Roman Elite and other upper classes and to make the humble and simple homely language of the bible palatable to the masses, the leaders of the church began to compromise and water down the word of God, eventually adopting and embracing Greek philosophical beliefs (a god who is triune, an immortal soul, punishment and reward after death, purgatory etc) and only with Origen was the “soul” established as a separate spiritual substance, which was based on Greek metaphysics, all this compromising and watering down Greco/Christio language the pagans could understand, as it was in part the language of Christianity, but also the language of Plato…Plotinus…!

Today, we have over 5,000 biblical manuscripts in whole or in part and when analysed no two seems to read alike and analysis shows, that there are at least 40,000 variant reading, yes, at least 40,000 and what we have today, are copies of copies of copies, separated from the original by hundreds of years and Mark (as that gospel is mentioned) is no exception, as we have a long and short conclusion (Mk 16:8 long conclusion) the short conclusion being the original according to very early sources…!

I have given this short piece of information material on Mark to show, that whoever wrote the gospels etc, it is of no consequence, as all (original) not the copies of the copies of the copies and the corruptions thereof, are “inspired of God” and hence, it is the gospel message that is important, as the whole theme of the bible (OT&NT) is the coming of God’s kingdom, His messiah, the sanctification of God’s name and the vindication of God’s universal sovereignty, as all such was brought into challenge by Satan the Devil, who will in due course, be crushed out of existence along with his demon angels and all who oppose Jehovah God and his beloved Son and our saviour Jesus Christ!

Textual Variants and textual corruptions:

See, Dr. (Prof) Bruce M. Metzger, “Textual criticism of the Greek New Testament” and his understudy, Prof. Bart D. Ehrman “Whose Word is it?” and other such academic studies!

Letusreason
 
arius325 said:
Part II

However, the long and short conclusions that are sometimes added after chapter 16, verse 8, are not to be regarded as authentic. They are missing in most of the ancient manuscripts, such as the Sinaitic and the Vatican No. 1209. The fourth-century scholars Eusebius and Jerome are in agreement that the authentic record closes with the words “they were in fear.” The other conclusions were probably added with a view to smoothing over the abruptness with which the Gospel ends.*

That Mark’s account is accurate is to be seen from the full harmony of his Gospel not only with the other Gospels but also with all the Holy Scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. Moreover, Jesus is shown again and again as one having authority not only in his spoken word but over the forces of nature, over Satan and the demons, over sickness and disease, yes, over death itself. So Mark opens his narrative with the impressive introduction: “The beginning of the good news about Jesus Christ.” His coming and ministry meant “good news,” and hence the study of Mark’s Gospel must be beneficial to all readers. The events described by Mark cover the period from spring 29 C.E. to spring 33 C.E.”

What Catholics and others are not told?
  • In the 2nd and 3rd centuries CE “Christian” scribes/copyists began to take liberties with the copies they were making and alterations (additions and deletions) began to take place with copies for either political or theological reasons, as there were several Parties/Groups vying for prominence and all claimed to be orthodox and claimed descent and authority from the apostles of Christ and one of those Parties, was what came to be called the “proto-orthodox” Party, as they began to claim the most pagan converts and this emerging and powerfully growing Party in time came to be called the Catholic Party (the Universalists) and in the end won the day and began to claim for itself true Orthodoxy and won the day in the end, because it literally had the most pagan converts, who were allowed to bring along and use their customs and symbols (one being the cross, of which there were many of…!)
In order for this Party to gain favour and respect from (especially) the Roman Elite and other upper classes and to make the humble and simple homely language of the bible palatable to the masses, the leaders of the church began to compromise and water down the word of God, eventually adopting and embracing Greek philosophical beliefs (a god who is triune, an immortal soul, punishment and reward after death, purgatory etc) and only with Origen was the “soul” established as a separate spiritual substance, which was based on Greek metaphysics, all this compromising and watering down Greco/Christio language the pagans could understand, as it was in part the language of Christianity, but also the language of Plato…Plotinus…!

Today, we have over 5,000 biblical manuscripts in whole or in part and when analysed no two seems to read alike and analysis shows, that there are at least 40,000 variant reading, yes, at least 40,000 and what we have today, are copies of copies of copies, separated from the original by hundreds of years and Mark (as that gospel is mentioned) is no exception, as we have a long and short conclusion (Mk 16:8 long conclusion) the short conclusion being the original according to very early sources…!

I have given this short piece of information material on Mark to show, that whoever wrote the gospels etc, it is of no consequence, as all (original) not the copies of the copies of the copies and the corruptions thereof, are “inspired of God” and hence, it is the gospel message that is important, as the whole theme of the bible (OT&NT) is the coming of God’s kingdom, His messiah, the sanctification of God’s name and the vindication of God’s universal sovereignty, as all such was brought into challenge by Satan the Devil, who will in due course, be crushed out of existence along with his demon angels and all who oppose Jehovah God and his beloved Son and our saviour Jesus Christ!

Textual Variants and textual corruptions:

See, Dr. (Prof) Bruce M. Metzger, “Textual criticism of the Greek New Testament” and his understudy, Prof. Bart D. Ehrman “Whose Word is it?” and other such academic studies!

Letusreason
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Arius, do you really believe that Catholics haven’t heard these things? How arrogant can you be?

Christ did not write anything down, nor did he instruct His Apostles to. He did start a Church, as mentioned in Matthew 16:17-20 and 1 Timothy 3:15. Can you please explain how you think that this is the Watctower Bible Tract Society/Jehovah’s Witnesses? Where is your succession to the Apostles starting from Russell?
 
arius325 said:
2 Tim 3:16 NASB (Catholic Edition)

“All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness…”
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Amen!

But, Arius, you have to tell us how you know that Timothy is “Scripture” but that the Shepherd of Hermas is not.

Who discerned this for you?

Whose word or authority are you accepting and obeying when you quote the letter to Timothy?

It is the authority of…

the Catholic Church that you are in obedience to when you quote St. Paul’s letter to Timothy and not the Shepherd of Hermas!
 
And let’s not forget, PR, that the scripture states that scripture is beneficial. It in no way shape or form does it say that is sufficient.

Scripture points to something other than itself as the authority. The onus is for Arius to prove historically that it’s the JW’s. You and I both know that he can’t. The question becomes if his religion’s own man made traditions and prejudices preclude him from seeing this. Only the Holy Spirit can drop the scales from his eyes.

I’ll pray for Arius, Alan and other JW’s that have had the true Gospel kept from them by the WTBS. I have love for them and feel for their position.
 
arius325 how do you know what is not scripture.
Also, explain to me how the JW religion would exist if the early Church did not provide the bible.
 
Catholic faith does not rely on the Bible alone, as you do. We have the teachings of the Apostles, carried on by their successors, the bishops today, that Christ promised the gates of hell shall not prevail.

So, if there is error in the Bible, why do you use it? Why use it to prove or disprove your faith and your arguments? If there is error, then there is error in your arguments too.

And the pillar and ground of truth is not the Bible, it is the Church, as testified to by St Paul in his letter to Timothy.
 
Arius, without looking it up, or researching on the internet, which of the following 4 passages are scripture, and which are not?

‘Of rebel angels, by whose aid.aspiring to set himself in glory above his peers he trusted to have equaled the most High.’

"‘There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.’

‘In that day, the Lord will punish with his sword, his fierce, great and powerful sword, Leviathan the gliding serpent, Leviathan the coiling serpent; he will slay the monster of the sea.’

‘For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have poof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him.’"
 
AntalKalnoky said:
But it depends Which kingdom Hall, doesn’t it? KH is not a unified belief system, is it? It’s teachings about and in the Bible are very different from ours. Correct me How i’m mistaken, please.
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Reply,

"But it depends Which kingdom Hall, doesn’t it? KH is not a unified belief system, is it?"

Not true, as we are not like the Catholics or the rest of Christendom!

Red herring and get out clause straw man reasoning!

"It’s teachings about and in the Bible are very different from ours. Correct me How i’m mistaken, please!"

Honest question and true!

Answer,

Several of the Catholic teachings, which are admitted to by Catholic sources… are of pagan (extra-biblical) origin, sanctified and adopted into the Catholic Church, but that doesn’t make them biblically and primitively Christian!

We JW’s, do not base our beliefs on Plato or Plotinus, which the Catholic Church positively does!!!

best wishes,

Letusreason
 
pablope said:
So what?

Catholic faith does not rely on the Bible alone, as you do. We have the teachings of the Apostles, carried on by their successors, the bishops today, that Christ promised the gates of hell shall not prevail.

So, if there is error in the Bible, why do you use it? Why use it to prove or disprove your faith and your arguments? If there is error, then there is error in your arguments too.

And the pillar and ground of truth is not the Bible, it is the Church, as testified to by St Paul in his letter to Timothy.
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Reply,

***“So, if there is error in the Bible, why do you use it? Why use it to prove or disprove your faith and your arguments? If there is error, then there is error in your arguments too.” ***

Please empirically show me where there is error in God’s inspired word , the Holy Bible?

NB,

Contradiction

Since chidlhood, I still have my Catholic Catechism and Catholic Bible and in the Catholic Catechism it says the the soul is a spirit, is immortal and cannot die, whereas my Catholic bible by the exact same Catholic Church, in its Catholic bible, says the exact opposite and that it can die?

Please explain empirically?

Letusreason
 
arius325 said:
Reply,

"But it depends Which kingdom Hall, doesn’t it? KH is not a unified belief system, is it?"

Not true, as we are not like the Catholics or the rest of Christendom!

Red herring and get out clause straw man reasoning!

So why are there still Independent Bible Students, StandFast Bible Students and Dawn Bible Students as well as Russellites? JW’s are the result of a schism.Please don’t try and pass off this canard that JW’s have been unified from the beginning. The closest thing they ever had to an apologist, Greg Stafford, has broken off and started his own movement, just like the JW’s did.

"It’s teachings about and in the Bible are very different from ours. Correct me How i’m mistaken, please!"

Honest question and true!

Answer,

Several of the Catholic teachings, which are admitted to by Catholic sources… are of pagan (extra-biblical) origin, sanctified and adopted into the Catholic Church, but that doesn’t make them biblically and primitively Christian!

We JW’s, do not base our beliefs on Plato or Plotinus, which the Catholic Church positively does!!!

Show in the bible where everything we need is contained in the bible. Chapter and verse, please.

best wishes,

Letusreason
Click to expand...
 
arius325 said:
Reply,

***“So, if there is error in the Bible, why do you use it? Why use it to prove or disprove your faith and your arguments? If there is error, then there is error in your arguments too.” ***

Please empirically show me where there is error in God’s inspired word , the Holy Bible?

NB,

Contradiction

Since chidlhood, I still have my Catholic Catechism and Catholic Bible and in the Catholic Catechism it says the the soul is a spirit, is immortal and cannot die, whereas my Catholic bible by the exact same Catholic Church, in its Catholic bible, says the exact opposite and that it can die?

Please explain empirically?

Show the evidence, please.

Letusreason
Click to expand...
 
Part I

“So why are there still Independent Bible Students, StandFast Bible Students and Dawn Bible Students as well as Russellites? JW’s are the result of a schism.Please don’t try and pass off this canard that JW’s have been unified from the beginning. The closest thing they ever had to an apologist, Greg Stafford, has broken off and started his own movement, just like the JW’s did.”

Reply 1

Like the apostles, who formed congregations here and there in their day, there arose those who developed their own independent ideas and concepts…they eventually left and several formed their own religion, but that did not make the Christianity of the apostles, which was known as “the Way”, which was changed to the name “Christian(ity)” the result of a schism, it still remained the truth and continued to grow…! So too with Jehovah’s modern servants, and it is nothing new, that some after being enlightened would try to do what others did in those early days of the apostles… they left, departed and formed their own religions, but that did not make the existence of those early (19th century CE) “Bible Students” the result of a schism, no more than the Christianity of the apostles and other faithful Christians, Those Bible Students chose the name Jehovah’s Witnesses so as to identify themselves, as the Witnesses of Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ, the bible itself foretold a restoration back to the basic beliefs of true primitive Christianity…!

In the days of the apostles, the foretold apostasy was beginning to get underway, as they and Jesus foretold, they apostles and older men were able to keep a check on this tendency whilst they were still alive, but by the time of the last apostle it had become so rampant, that many (weeds) existed, as there were the those who professed Christ and Christianity and those who partially accepted…Groups/Parties abounded with varying beliefs, “Nazarites, Ebionites, Docetists,…Montanists, proto orthodox, gnostics…Marcionites, Monarchians and so on, to name but a few! Eventually among the wrangling sects, emerged a winner and those were the proto-orthodox, which began to develop under the influence of Greek philosophy and wanting to tickle the ears of the many into the proto-Trinitarians; these won the day and set about the destruction of the others, by whatever means available to them, eventually in collaboration with the Roman State (nothing has changed here) the emerged Catholics were now in a position to have any who challenged their authority and power to be dealt with severely and Catholicism readily used the sword of the state to execute or exile many…a far cry from the early primitive Christians and when these empirical facts are brought out, there are those of Christendom that do not like it and nothing has changed in these modern times, as the Christendom (which includes the Catholic Church) through its clergy system has seen to it with the collaboration with its political paramours has had JW put to death, mobbed, tarred and feathered, imprisoned, taken to court on trumped up charges, confiscated property, tried to tax out of existence and the list goes on, even today, and today in France and in Russia, those governments, with pressure from Christendom’s clergy have been found guilty by the ECHR – wee appealed to “Caesar” and “Caesar” has found them guilty…!

So no, JW’s are not the result of those who went their own way and formed their own religion, no more that those of “the Way” who took on the name “Christian”, after all, the bible said the God would take out of the nations a people for his Name and the greatest “Witness” to that Name is Jesus Christ himself!
“The closest thing they ever had to an apologist, Greg Stafford, has broken off and started his own movement, just like the JW’s did.”

Reply 2

As to JW apologists, you just do not know how many there are of us, do you, so you pluck out the name “Greg Stafford” (now an ex-JW) who has what people would say, set up his own religion! The core basic beliefs of Greg (I knew him slightly before he decided to part company, a first rate apologist) have not changed, he has left before and then come back, whether he will again, only time will tell, but this situation does not negate his scholarship on those core beliefs, mainly dealing with the Trinitarian issue and some other matters (See, “Jehovah’s Witnesses Defended, an answer to Scholars and Critics” 2nd Edition.

All you are doing, like others, is to continue to provide straw man arguments and red herrings and no doubt, you will dream up something else!

We JW’s, do not base our beliefs on Plato or Plotinus, which the Catholic Church positively does!!!

Show in the bible where everything we need is contained in the bible. Chapter and verse, please.

Reply 3

Col 2:6-10 NWT

“Therefore,** as YOU have accepted Christ Jesus the Lord, go on walking in union with him**, 7 rooted and being built up in him and being stabilized in the faith, just as YOU were taught, overflowing with [faith] in thanksgiving. 8 Look out: **perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ; **9 because it is **in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. **10 And so YOU are possessed of fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority.”

To be concluded.
 
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