Scripture verses JWs have problems with?

[PRmerger]

Good afternoon PR, If our beliefs do not have to come from scripture than we cannot verify their origins or truth claims and have an ever changing set of truths that are subjective to the leadership.

If all your beliefs have to come from Scripture, and you cannot provide a single Scripture verse to support this, then your mantra is self-refuting.

Catholics believe that our Faith comes from Jesus, the Incarnate Word.

And this is why when you dialogue with JWs you will only go round and round, because he will rightly say: “I don’t see what you see in the Scriptures about the divinity of the man named Jesus.” Without the lens of the Faith which brought you these Scriptures you cannot extract the dogma of Christ’s divinity.

Proof? Discuss the exact verses you provided with a JW or a Christadelphian or a Mormon. See if they say, “Oh! You’re right! Just from reading those verses I see that Jesus is Divine!”

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus used it against the man made rules of the religeous of His day.

This is a non-sequitur.

I asked you to provide a Scripture verse for your claim that:

Originally posted by jericho777 First there must be scriptural evidence for an idea then weigh other verses against them to see if the idea is valid.

Could you provide chapter and verse for this please?

This is *another *man-made tradition I hear among Protestant circles quite frequently: “We must weigh verse with other verse before we can confirm a doctrine” or its variation: “Scripture interprets itself”

Yet there is not a single verse that supports the above tradition.

It seems that this idea is something that one man promoted, and another heard, and then another proclaimed, but it came not from the pages of the Bible but from the mind of some fallible person.

 

[PRmerger]

There was a discussion on here about their differing veiws and I thought how ironic it was to have two differing doctrines running concurrently. I don’t fully understand their differences just that there is a difference.

If you cannot provide any contradictory doctrines preached by the Jesuits and the Dominicans, then you ought not be proclaiming that they have them.

The truth is, jericho, that Jesuits and Dominicans both preach the same dogmas and doctrines as all the other Catholic orders.

 

[Publisher]

And could not the white supremacist claim the same thing? And would you say that he is right in following his “sacred story”?

Oh…most definitely…but a ‘white superemacist’ could also profess being a “Christian”…and many do…in fact “white supremacy”…especially the “Southern” variety claims to be “Christian” through and through…yet their lives do not “speak” anything that has to do with “love one another”…“show mercy”…“seek the welfare of others”…and the list goes on…BUT “that of God” is still present within them…my reaction and treatment of them is not dependent on what they believe…they are not required to embrace me as a child of God who bears His image…I am required to embrace them as a child of God who bears His image…THAT is the difference.

When I lived in the Bay Area many many moons ago the KKK held a rally at a downtown San Jose park…hundreds showed up…we held “Meeting” off to one side…more than just Friends attended…God was present…violence still errupted as they were pelted with vegetables and rocks…the “story” they lived…was anything but “sacred”…but we still acknoweldged “that of God” within them…

 

[PRmerger]

Oh…most definitely…but a ‘white superemacist’ could also profess being a “Christian”…and many do…in fact “white supremacy”…especially the “Southern” variety claims to be “Christian” through and through…yet their lives do not “speak” anything that has to do with “love one another”…“show mercy”…“seek the welfare of others”…and the list goes on…BUT “that of God” is still present within them…my reaction and treatment of them is not dependent on what they believe…they are not required to embrace me as a child of God who bears His image…I am required to embrace them as a child of God who bears His image…THAT is the difference.

When I lived in the Bay Area many many moons ago the KKK held a rally at a downtown San Jose park…hundreds showed up…we held “Meeting” off to one side…more than just Friends attended…God was present…violence still errupted as they were pelted with vegetables and rocks…the “story” they lived…was anything but “sacred”…but we still acknoweldged “that of God” within them…

I understand, Publisher, what you are saying. And I agree with you that we must embrace them and love them as children of God.

But you do see how your Friends position does not allow you to say to the white supremacist: “you are wrong” without being disingenuous, especially if he proclaims, “well, I am simply following* your* paradigm which it to follow my own ‘sacred story’.”

There must be an objective truth, an external measuring stick, by which we say someone can follow his “sacred story” and be consonant with truth.

 

[Publisher]

I understand, Publisher, what you are saying. And I agree with you that we must embrace them and love them as children of God.

But you do see how your Friends position does not allow you to say to the white supremacist: “you are wrong” without being disingenuous, especially if he proclaims, “well, I am simply following* your* paradigm which it to follow my own ‘sacred story’.”

There must be an objective truth, an external measuring stick, by which we say someone can follow his “sacred story” and be consonant with truth.

No friend…but I see you obviously do.

There is an external “measuring stick”…the life of Jesus of Nazareth…the Light Within…the Inner Word…“that of God”. How well we measure up to him will determine much about a persons belief system.

 

[PRmerger]

No friend…but I see you obviously do.

There is an external “measuring stick”…the life of Jesus of Nazareth…the Light Within…the Inner Word…“that of God”. How well we measure up to him will determine much about a persons belief system.

Well said!

So then we are agreed that there are many belief systems which are wrong?

 

[Publisher]

Well said!

So then we are agreed that there are many belief systems which are wrong?

Of course…I personally believe Catholicism is “wrong” about a good many things…but I do not deny that God is at work within Catholics…God is no respector of persons…He seeks to bring ALL to Himself and uses “what we know” to do it. It is not necessarily a person’s “professed” beliefs that make us “wrong”…it is how we live those beliefs and how we treat those around us that determines how “right” we are in what we believe…we can claim to believe a great many things…that may or may not be “fact”…but it is our “lives that speak” our “true creed”, not necessarily our words.

If I profess to love others…and live in hate…which truly is my “creed”? What I professed…or what I live?

 

[joclucsylv]

Gus Lloyd on the Catholic Radio Channel explained his encounter with JWs when they knocked on his door. He didn’t let them lead the conversation like they usually do. Instead he took the reins. He was asked…Do you think God likes all the religions in the world. He responded…I think God wants everyone to be Catholic. He also went on to beautifully explain the trinity to them. As they left, the younger JW looked back at him and thanked him for explaining the Trintiy to them.

His real stumper was asking them if they know where does the bible come from. They were stumped. He went on to explain that it is the Catholic church in the 400s who approved the books of the bible by the council of Hippo and that it was Pope Innocent who closed it saying that we had the full word of God. They looked at him like he had 3 heads. He planted enough seeds and hopefully they went back home and did some research!! I am ready for a JW to come to my house anyday!!

 

[PRmerger]

Of course…I personally believe Catholicism is “wrong” about a good many things…but I do not deny that God is at work within Catholics…

Well, then, Publisher, that makes you quite catholic in your beliefs, for Catholicism also proclaims that God is at work within non-Catholics!

God is no respector of persons…

Huh?

He seeks to bring ALL to Himself and uses “what we know” to do it. It is not necessarily a person’s “professed” beliefs that make us “wrong”…

Of course a person’s “professed” beliefs makes them wrong! If a man professes that he is superior to another, then his professed belief is wrong.

it is how we live those beliefs and how we treat those around us that determines how “right” we are in what we believe…

This is true.

we can claim to believe a great many things…that may or may not be “fact”…but it is our “lives that speak” our “true creed”, not necessarily our words.

Our words, also, can be right or wrong.

If I profess to love others…and live in hate…which truly is my “creed”? What I professed…or what I live?

Well, as you know, you and I are agreed here, but there may be some whose “sacred story” do not require them to “love others”–they profess to a different understanding of Jesus’ words.

And Catholicism can state, quite plainly, this “different gospel” is wrong, no matter how sincerely this person may be living his “sacred story.”.

 

[noprem]

I have not tried conversing with them, but have found that a lot of them will leave if you tell them you are Catholic. Maybe they have learned that they can not compete with that.

… or we may respond, ‘We’re always happy to meet a spiritual person, since it seems there are so few these days. No doubt you take seriously any statements from Our Lord Jesus. At Mt 6:9,10 he gave instructions on prayer. Do you think that prayer will ever be answered “on earth as it is in heaven”?’

[Here’s where we allow for response; what is yours? And you don’t even have to open your door and let the air conditioning out! ]

 

[PRmerger]

… or we may respond, ‘We’re always happy to meet a spiritual person, since it seems there are so few these days. No doubt you take seriously any statements from Our Lord Jesus. At Mt 6:9,10 he gave instructions on prayer. Do you think that prayer will ever be answered “on earth as it is in heaven”?’

[Here’s where we allow for response; what is yours? And you don’t even have to open your door and let the air conditioning out! ]

Catholics respond with a hearty AMEN! to the above question regarding Mt 6:9-10. Heaven comes to earth at each and every Mass.

What about you? Is your worship service heaven on earth?

 

[T_More]

Catholics respond with a hearty AMEN! to the above question regarding Mt 6:9-10. Heaven comes to earth at each and every Mass.

What about you? Is your worship service heaven on earth?

PR, their idea of worship is their door to door field service ministry. As for their meetings at their Kingdom Halls (read churches), it’s more of a sales meeting than actual worship. Sure they pray and sing, but their meetings are mainly for examing their publications and teaching the members about how to get the publications into the hands of non-JW’s. There is not much reverence or moments to be contemplative.

 

[PRmerger]

PR, their idea of worship is their door to door field service ministry. As for their meetings at their Kingdom Halls (read churches), it’s more of a sales meeting than actual worship. Sure they pray and sing, but their meetings are mainly for examing their publications and teaching the members about how to get the publications into the hands of non-JW’s. There is not much reverence or moments to be contemplative.

That most certainly does NOT sound like what Jesus prayed in Matthew! NOT heaven on earth but more like Amway.

 

[T_More]

That most certainly does NOT sound like what Jesus prayed in Matthew! NOT heaven on earth but more like Amway.

I have felt more inspired at Amway meetings…

 

[mwok]

Reply,

Hello,

My brother was a Catholic for over 20 years and is now a JW. I asked him why? When he was a teenager, he studied Hebrew, Greek (classical and koine), ancient history and Greek philosophy and metaphysics. He did 3 years intensive reseach and came to the conclusion, ever before he ever met with JW’s, that many of the teachings, customs, celebrations and dogmas of the RCC and Protestant churches were based, not on scripture, but on extra-biblical matters!

He has had discussions with rabbis, priests, vicars etc and none of them seem to be able to touch him, as he, at will can quote the apologists, church fathers (I wish I had his memory) scripture and historical sources at will and has seemed to produce empirical indisputable evidence that what he says on certain subjects is true; for example, he says that the Triune godhead “substance sharing” (to quote him) is based on the metaphysics of a Greek philosopher called Parmenides, on whom, Plato based his metaphysical and philosophical ideas on and later on the Neo-Platonic philosophers Plotinus, Porphyry… gave the Catholic church a polished version of and that the whole church is 99% Greek in thought and only 1% Christian in thought and no vicar or priest seems to be able to hold their own against him, he seems to be like a surgeon’s scalpel. I told him about some of the way some on here answer the average JW, who in the main, are not apologists and when I told him about some of the Catholic replies to JW’s, he just laughed and laughed and said “it figures”!

Does anyone have any suggestions, as to how I can answer him, any questions, that I can put to him? Please drop me an e-mail, as I am out most of the time and can access my emails from an internet cafe!

Many thanks!

When it comes to Christian beliefs that seem pagan its like arguing “which came first”. For instance there was the pagan worship of a god (I think they called him Mythras) in the 1st century that closely resembled Christ but then again, Christ came first. But there were also pagan gods resembling Christ before He was born, so pagans were first, but then again Christ had been prophesied by the Jews for 4000 years so Christ was first. But the Jews were slaves of the Egyptians who were polytheistic pagans, so the pagans were first. But God revealed Himself to Abraham before his people were enslaved by the Jews, so Christ came first. But Abraham came from a pagan family, so pagans were first. But Adam and Eve were before Abraham, so Christ came first. Thats generally how it goes.

 

[AntalKalnoky]

There’s also an old saying or 3 that One can become too knowledgeable or intelligent to have any common sense or hitch a horse up to the wagon, etc., etc, etc.

 

[happyhippo]

Jehovah Jesus
Isaiah 12:2, 43:11
Luke 1:47 the savior/only savior Titus 2:13
Luke 2:11
John 4:42
Acts 4:12
Isaiah 43:10 we are to be his witnesses * Acts 1:8
John 14:1(a) have faith in John 14:1(b)
Isaiah 45:22-23 knees bend/ tongues swear to Philippians 2:10-11…<<

Reply,

Is Jesus Jehovah?

Hidden and disguised Modalsim!

The problem with this kind of reasoning is that it leads to Modalism i.e. the Trinitarian belief that Jesus is Jehovah?

In Math 6:9 Jesus calls another “our father”, but supplies no name to such a One.

In Isa 63:16; 64:8 (ASV, NWT, DT, YLT) the prophet, likewise calls this very same one, “our father” and since the term “God” refers to “God the Father” and such a One was/is the same father mentioned in either Isaiah or Mathew i.e. God does not change, so if he was the same father in to the Israelites in Isaiah, he is the very same father in Mathew, one and the same father!

Whereas, Jesus does not supply a name to the “our father” Isaiah does and the prophet calls this very same father by name and that is Jehovah, so that to Isaiah and Israel, Jehovah is the “our father” then and in the time of Jesus, the same unchanging father, so that Jehovah, is the “our father”, who is “God the Father”, who is God, who is Jehovah and this is where the Modalism creeps in disguise for Trinitarians!

Trinitarianism

Jesus is Jehovah

Jehovah is Jesus

Bible

Jehovah is the “our father”, who is “God the Father”

If Jesus is Jehovah and Jehovah is God the Father, then Jesus is God the Father, because God the father is Jehovah!

No matter which way Trinitarians argue their theology, it leads to Modalism, which is rank apostasy!

Quite clearly from a scriptural point of view, Jesus cannot be Jehovah!

Letusreason

 

[mwok]

say what?!

 

[ibneahmad]

Anyone here have any discussions with Jehovah’s Witnesses? How did it go?

I’m looking for some “stumpers for JWs”–and I have indeed read the Catholic Answers tracts on this–but am looking for* more *from all of my friends here on the forum.

I have had 2 very nice JW ladies come to my door–finally! I’ve been wanting to chat with JWs for a LONG time. I pass their local Kingdom Hall every day and think, “What are they doing in there?? Why can’t anyone come and chat with me because I have so much to ask them!”

Thanks!

I had been going to JW’s Kingdom Hall for a year till they forbade to come there. My experience is that they don’t teach any Bible; they only teach WatchTower magazine which does not present what the Bible says.