Scripture verses JWs have problems with?

[arius325]

Part II

The Christ that Christendom has is a blend of Plato and Christ!

Everything JW’s need is summed up in Christ, we do not need to resort to man made extra-biblical philosophy to back up what we need or believe!

The Catholic Church, like other Churches of Christendom, has resorted to Greek philosophy, as she has to look outside of the bible for concepts/ideas in order to give credence to non-biblical belief and tradition and this is admitted to by Christendom’s own scholars, historians and respected encyclopaedias!

“Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ…”

“…through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men…”

This scripture (and others) has been proved true, when it comes to the Catholic Church (and others) who did not keep awake and fell prey to the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men…” she turned Christianity into a philosophy and that was done through the Platonising fathers of the Church in the periods after the death of the apostles, who were not around to keep a tight check on them, so the apostasy began to accelerate until, we have those nominal Christians, who are 99% Greek in thought (and don’t even know it) and only 1% Christian in thought, which is the result of the philosophic contamination that the apostle Paul advised Christians to keep well away fro, but later, some thought they knew better than Paul, the result Christendom a mimic, a counterfeit copy of biblical Christianity!

To the readers, here is an extract on how Greek philosophy worked its way into the Catholic Chruch and the rest of Christendom; note the authorities used!

The Role of Greek Philosophy

"The Encyclopædia Britannica (1976 edition) states: “From the middle of the 2nd century [that is, the 100’s] AD, Christians who had some training in Greek philosophy began to feel the need to express their faith in its terms, both for their own intellectual satisfaction and in order to convert educated pagans. The philosophy that suited them best was Platonism.”

“Platonism” refers to the teachings of Greek philosopher Plato who was born about 428 B.C.E. Indicating a direct connection between the Trinity doctrine and Plato’s philosophy, The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge points out:

“Many of the early Christians, in turn, found peculiar attractions in the doctrines of Plato, and employed them as weapons for the defense and extension of Christianity, or cast the truths of Christianity in a Platonic mold. The doctrines of the Logos [Greek for “the Word”] and the Trinity received their shape from Greek Fathers, who, if not trained in the schools, were much influenced, directly or indirectly, by the Platonic philosophy, particularly in its Jewish-Alexandrian form.”

\concluded in Part III

 

[arius325]

Part III (conclusion)

In what way did such “early Christians” employ Plato’s philosophy when molding the Trinity doctrine? Let us consider briefly what this Greek philosopher taught.

From “Demiurge” to Pagan “Logos”

According to Plato, all the things that people can see and feel are the result of eternal “ideas” or “forms” impressed upon matter. As a beautiful sculpture represents the idea of the sculptor impressed upon stone, so Plato believed that the entire physical universe owes its existence to the influence upon matter of a “world of ideas.” The supreme “idea” was said to be “the Good,” which Plato sometimes identified with God.

Of special interest is Plato’s belief concerning creation of the world. S. E. Frost, Jr., Ph.D, writes in The Basic Teachings of the Great Philosophers:

“In one of Plato’s famous Dialogues, the Timaeus, he tells us how the world of our senses was created. There was an ‘architect,’ the ‘Demiurge,’ who brought the ideal world and matter together just as a sculptor might bring his idea and marble together to produce a statue. This ‘Demiurge’ had perfect ideas of everything, and he had a great mass of matter. Plato never tells us where either the ‘Demiurge,’ ideas, or matter came from originally. They were just there when things began. As the ‘Demiurge’ brought an idea in touch with some matter, a thing was created.”

This theory was brought into contact with the Bible by a Jewish philosopher known as Philo, who was born between 15 and 10 B.C.E. But what Plato called the “Demiurge” Philo referred to as “the Logos.” Dr. Frost explains:

“Philo taught that there were many powers, or spirits, which radiated from God as light might radiate from a lamp. One of these powers, which he called the ‘Logos,’ was the creator of the world. This Logos, he taught, worked with matter and out of it created everything in the universe. In this way, God, through the Logos, created the universe. Further, everything in the universe is a copy of an idea in the mind of God. This reminds us of Plato’s belief that the world which we experience through our senses is a copy of ideas in the ideal world. And, indeed, Philo was attempting here to reconcile Plato’s philosophy with the Jewish religion.”
“The Word,” or Logos, according to John, however, is different from that of Philo. John describes “the Word” as a person who “became flesh.” (John 1:14) This is not true of Plato’s “Demiurge” or Philo’s “Logos.”

Nevertheless, early in the Common Era certain individuals transferred to “the Word” of the Gospel of John characteristics of the “Demiurge” and “Logos” mentioned in the non-Biblical writings of Plato and Philo. Since that pagan “Demiurge” or “Logos” evidently had always existed alongside the supreme God, it became “orthodox” to teach that Jesus was coeternal with God. Does the Bible support that conclusion?

The empirical facts speak for themselves and does not allow for unsubstantiated sentimental nonsense and a false religious comfort zone!

The reason why Catholics will not accept the bible alone, as it does not support its extra-biblical dogmas and therefore, the Church has to look elsewhere for its support of such dogmas, traditions and customs etc!

Arius

 

[arius325]

At this moment in time, let’s think of the English word “soul” without defining it! Let’s take the undefined “soul” and put it in a box! We can define it later!

In front of me, I have my “Revised Edition 1971” of the little red covered, “A Catechism of Christian Doctrine” It cost me 25 pence at the time.

Now turn to the section dealing with the term “FAITH” and on page 3 it lists 7 points. For this exercise I will deal with points 5 and 6. Each point starts with a question. I will quote them word for word, so you can check them for yourself!

Point 5

“How is your soul like to God?

“My soul is like to God because it is a spirit, and is immortal.”

Point 6

“What do you mean when you say that your soul is immortal?”

“When I say my soul is immortal, I mean that my soul can never die.”

The above is exact and word for word. The “spirit” part is interesting in itself, but is not supported by the bible, except by way of injecting philosophic pre-conceived notions back into it!

Is it true that the soul can never die.”?

I have my (old) Catholic Bible also in front of me, called,

“The Holy Bible – Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition” (1966 edition – Red Cover, with foreword by John Cardinal Heenan, Archbishop of Westminster 1965)

The point to take note of, is that both books belong to one and the same Catholic Church, so there should be no contradiction between them, only harmony and agreement, but is that the case, it should be?

In Ezek 18: 4, 20, it tells us that all souls (without defining what a soul is) belong to God and that “the soul that sins shall die”!

Now go to the NT and go to James 5:20 where it tells us that a sinner’s “soul” can be “saved from death”!

Now let’s turn to the master himself, Jesus, as we look at his words in Math 10:28, here Jesus says that a soul can be destroyed!

Clearly, if the bible including the inspired words of the OT prophet and the NT prophet including the words of Jesus himself, of whom Trinitarians say is God and we know that “God cannot lie” how can a “soul” be “immortal” if it can “die”, be “destroyed”, be “saved”?

Without defining what the soul is for the moment, how can a soul be immortal, which means that a soul has self generating life, a life that cannot be destroyed, be made subject to death, cannot be dissolved or suffer corruption in any way…and then the next moment on a whim, so to say that the soul is immortal one moment and then say it is not, shows a direct contradiction!

Which is correct, the Catholic Catechism or the Catholic Bible, both cannot be true?

The two books originate with the same Catholic Church?

Here is your empirical data, right I front of your eyes!

How do you explain such a contradiction?

The clue to a correct understanding in the original language words and Greek philosophy!

Arius

 

[arius325]

You implied it in your post…#125…where you mentioned possible changes, additions, etc.

 

[PRmerger]

Well, this clearly shows that there were no JWs (aka “Bible Students”) in the first 400 years of Christianity as there was no Bible until the Catholic Church discerned, codified and infallibly declared the canon of Scripture in the 5th century at a council led by a Pope.

400 years! So this is like the period of time from the Pilgrims until modern day society. It’s like a person appearing today and saying, “I’m an original Pilgrim! I know the Way of the Pilgrims!”. One would validly look at this guy and say, “How is it that you suddenly know that true ways of that society, now that you’re 400 years separated from them?”

 

[T_More]

Like the apostles, who formed congregations here and there in their day, there arose those who developed their own independent ideas and concepts…they eventually left and several formed their own religion, but that did not make the Christianity of the apostles, which was known as “the Way”, which was changed to the name “Christian(ity)” the result of a schism, it still remained the truth and continued to grow…! So too with Jehovah’s modern servants, and it is nothing new, that some after being enlightened would try to do what others did in those early days of the apostles… they left, departed and formed their own religions, but that did not make the existence of those early (19th century CE) “Bible Students” the result of a schism, no more than the Christianity of the apostles and other faithful Christians, Those Bible Students chose the name Jehovah’s Witnesses so as to identify themselves, as the Witnesses of Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ, the bible itself foretold a restoration back to the basic beliefs of true primitive Christianity…!

In the days of the apostles, the foretold apostasy was beginning to get underway, as they and Jesus foretold, they apostles and older men were able to keep a check on this tendency whilst they were still alive, but by the time of the last apostle it had become so rampant, that many (weeds) existed, as there were the those who professed Christ and Christianity and those who partially accepted…Groups/Parties abounded with varying beliefs, “Nazarites, Ebionites, Docetists,…Montanists, proto orthodox, gnostics…Marcionites, Monarchians and so on, to name but a few! Eventually among the wrangling sects, emerged a winner and those were the proto-orthodox, which began to develop under the influence of Greek philosophy and wanting to tickle the ears of the many into the proto-Trinitarians; these won the day and set about the destruction of the others, by whatever means available to them, eventually in collaboration with the Roman State (nothing has changed here) the emerged Catholics were now in a position to have any who challenged their authority and power to be dealt with severely and Catholicism readily used the sword of the state to execute or exile many…a far cry from the early primitive Christians and when these empirical facts are brought out, there are those of Christendom that do not like it and nothing has changed in these modern times, as the Christendom (which includes the Catholic Church) through its clergy system has seen to it with the collaboration with its political paramours has had JW put to death, mobbed, tarred and feathered, imprisoned, taken to court on trumped up charges, confiscated property, tried to tax out of existence and the list goes on, even today, and today in France and in Russia, those governments, with pressure from Christendom’s clergy have been found guilty by the ECHR – wee appealed to “Caesar” and “Caesar” has found them guilty…!
So no, JW’s are not the result of those who went their own way and formed their own religion, no more that those of “the Way” who took on the name “Christian”, after all, the bible said the God would take out of the nations a people for his Name and the greatest “Witness” to that Name is Jesus Christ himself!
“The closest thing they ever had to an apologist, Greg Stafford, has broken off and started his own movement, just like the JW’s did.”

As to JW apologists, you just do not know how many there are of us, do you, so you pluck out the name “Greg Stafford” (now an ex-JW) who has what people would say, set up his own religion! The core basic beliefs of Greg (I knew him slightly before he decided to part company, a first rate apologist) have not changed, he has left before and then come back, whether he will again, only time will tell, but this situation does not negate his scholarship on those core beliefs, mainly dealing with the Trinitarian issue and some other matters (See, “Jehovah’s Witnesses Defended, an answer to Scholars and Critics” 2nd Edition.

All you are doing, like others, is to continue to provide straw man arguments and red herrings and no doubt, you will dream up something else!

We JW’s, do not base our beliefs on Plato or Plotinus, which the Catholic Church positively does!!!

**You JW’s can’t answer where the faithful & discreet slave was for 19 centuries and therefore lose all credibility. FROM WHOM DID RUSSELL RECEIVE ORDINATION TO FAITHFULLY INTERPRET SCRIPTURE? Who was the faithful & discreet servant feeding it’s members the food at the proper time for 19 centuries? It’s understandable why you avoid the question, but won’t you at least try? **

Show in the bible where everything we need is contained in the bible. Chapter and verse, please.
Col 2:6-10 NWT
“Therefore,** as YOU have accepted Christ Jesus the Lord, go on walking in union with him**, 7 rooted and being built up in him and being stabilized in the faith, just as YOU were taught, overflowing with [faith] in thanksgiving. 8 Look out: **perhaps there may be someone who will carry YOU off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ; **9 because it is **in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily. **10 And so YOU are possessed of fullness by means of him, who is the head of all government and authority.”
**This doesn’t answer the question in the least. Try again. **

 

[T_More]

In the days of the apostles, the foretold apostasy was beginning to get underway, as they and Jesus foretold, they apostles and older men were able to keep a check on this tendency whilst they were still alive, but by the time of the last apostle it had become so rampant, that many (weeds) existed, as there were the those who professed Christ and Christianity and those who partially accepted…Groups/Parties abounded with varying beliefs, “Nazarites, Ebionites, Docetists,…Montanists, proto orthodox, gnostics…Marcionites, Monarchians and so on, to name but a few! Eventually among the wrangling sects, emerged a winner and those were the proto-orthodox, which began to develop under the influence of Greek philosophy and wanting to tickle the ears of the many into the proto-Trinitarians; these won the day and set about the destruction of the others, by whatever means available to them, eventually in collaboration with the Roman State (nothing has changed here) the emerged Catholics were now in a position to have any who challenged their authority and power to be dealt with severely and Catholicism readily used the sword of the state to execute or exile many…a far cry from the early primitive Christians and when these empirical facts are brought out, there are those of Christendom that do not like it and nothing has changed in these modern times, as the Christendom (which includes the Catholic Church) through its clergy system has seen to it with the collaboration with its political paramours has had JW put to death, mobbed, tarred and feathered, imprisoned, taken to court on trumped up charges, confiscated property, tried to tax out of existence and the list goes on, even today, and today in France and in Russia, those governments, with pressure from Christendom’s clergy have been found guilty by the ECHR – wee appealed to “Caesar” and “Caesar” has found them guilty…!

Matthew 16:18 (New World Translation)

18 Also, I say to you, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build **my **congregation, and the gates of Ha´des will not overpower it.

“Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually.”-Watchtower 1981 Mar 1 p.24

It appears that you are contradicting both scripture and the governing body.

 

[T_More]

At this moment in time, let’s think of the English word “soul” without defining it! Let’s take the undefined “soul” and put it in a box! We can define it later!

In front of me, I have my “Revised Edition 1971” of the little red covered, “A Catechism of Christian Doctrine” It cost me 25 pence at the time.

Arius

Is this the Catholic Catechism? Why don’t you cite the official Catechism of the Catholic Church and the paragraph that you think supports your position? It’s available online for free so you can point to where you think there is a contradiction:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

And if you take the time to answer this, why won’t you answer my ongoing question about the faithful & discreet slave?

 

[Loboto-Me]

That most certainly does NOT sound like what Jesus prayed in Matthew! NOT heaven on earth but more like Amway.

Oh my gosh! My JW brother in law started by being hooked into Amway products LOL! Him trying to get us to join up, then when he and his former wife were having difficulties, the JW kept coming. I suppose he felt a need to fit in and be consoled. He’s now been JW for over 25 years (not always in good standing but always being reinstated).

 

[guanophore]

I won’t comment on every thing “noobio” has said, but will comment on just a few points to prove the point, where logic and reason are ignored and the texts of scripture are put to one side, because of this ingrained Trinitarian theology!

You make a good point here. When Catholics read the Scripture, they do so in the light of the faith that produced the writings (Trinitarian). A well catechized Catholic has the faith “ingrained” prior to approaching the Scripture. In this way, when we read the Scripture, we see the faith of the Apostles reflected in it’s pages.

Those who have been separated from the Apostolic faith as a result of the fallout from the Reformation approach the Scriptures apart from the “ingrained” knowledge of the faith that produced them. Human reason and logic are used, in place of the revelation that was given “once for all” to the Church to make sense of the Scriptures. This is how it is that there are as many interpretations as there are belly buttons.

 

[arius325]

Well, this clearly shows that there were no JW’s (aka “Bible Students”) in the first 400 years of Christianity as there was no Bible until the Catholic Church discerned, codified and infallibly declared the canon of Scripture in the 5th century at a council led by a Pope.

400 years! So this is like the period of time from the Pilgrims until modern day society. It’s like a person appearing today and saying, “I’m an original Pilgrim! I know the Way of the Pilgrims!”. One would validly look at this guy and say, “How is it that you suddenly know that true ways of that society, now that you’re 400 years separated from them?”

Reply 1,

You haven’t answered the Catholic Church contradiction on why the Catholic Catechism says that the “soul is immortal and cannot die”, whereas, the Catholic bible quoted, says the "soul can die, be saved from death and be (Jesus’ own words) be destroyed!

However, you digressed from the contradiction (not surprisingly) and said,

“Well, this clearly shows that there were no JW’s (aka “Bible Students”) in the first 400 years of Christianity”

No, that is because Jehovah had His Witnesses, even back in the time of the prophet Isaiah, whose book was written over 700 years before the Christian era began!
Isa 43:10 ASV bible (Trinitarian)

“Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” (ASV, DT, YLT - all Trinitarian)

"Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah” Who was God talking to, the trees, no He was talking about His people Israel, all of whom were therefore, Jehovah’s Witnesses, as God said of them “Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah…”!

Reply 2,

“…in the first 400 years of Christianity as there was no Bible until the Catholic Church discerned, codified and infallibly declared the canon of Scripture in the 5th century at a council led by a Pope.”

Rubbish, Jehovah’s people had the OT, which Jesus and his apostles used! The bible was completed before the death of the last apostle called John; and a 5th century (hundreds of years separated from the time of Jesus, the apostles and faithful primitive Christian) Catholic Church council in ratifying bible books is irrelevant, as it is God who decided which books were His, not apostate Greek philosophically thinking clergy!

Infallibility of the Popes.

The apostle Peter denied Christ.

The apostle Peter had to be corrected by the apostle Paul.

There were Popes (39 of which were married) who were guilty of apostasy, tainted with heresy and censured by later Popes!

Papal infallibility is of man and not God.

The scandalous history of many Popes is well documented.

Would Jehovah God use such a Mother institutional Organization, corrupted from top to bottom?

Reply 3,

In reference to Jesus,

Rev 3:14 NASB (Catholic and Trinitarian)

“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:”

“The Amen, the faithful and true Witness…”

Jesus is the greatest Witness of his God and Father Jehovah and the Beginning of the creation of God, “ (2 Cor 1:3; Eph 1:3; 1 Pet 1:3.

Jehovah has always has His Witnesses!

To the reader,

The above is an example of blind obedience, incompetence and gross ignorance, of someone who in reality knows next to nothing, except to parrot and is a good example of the typical Catholic, all church, but empirically clueless about the bible!

Arius

 

[arius325]

T_More:
Reply,

Like Big Dummy, it does answer the question, and like BD, you refuse the reasonableness of such!

 

[mwok]

So how do you know the Bible you read has all the books that God intended since God did not include a table of contents?

 

[arius325]

Matthew 16:18 (New World Translation)

18 Also, I say to you, You are Peter, and on this rock-mass I will build **my **congregation, and the gates of Ha´des will not overpower it.

“Beginning with Pentecost, 33 C.E., and continuing through the 19 centuries since then, this slavelike congregation has been feeding its members spiritually.”-Watchtower 1981 Mar 1 p.24

It appears that you are contradicting both scripture and the governing body.

Reply,

Nope, as you do not take into consideration the great apostasy that was beginning to develop in the days of the apostles, which they, when alive could keep a check on and by the time of the last apostles, the congregations were riddled with various types, especially the Gnostics, of whom John alludes to in his writing and you also ignore the restoration prophesies contained in the bible, especially the book of Daniel!

Would God chose a Religious Orginisation, known as Catholicism, which it blended Greek pagan philoophy with His word, which produced nominal Christians, who do not know their left from their right and this is all to be seen on this forum; just look at the results of deviating from scripture by Catholicism and the rest of Christendom, it history is written in blood, wars, immorality, and compromises with the political system and now in these day, Christendom is full of homosexuals, Gay marriages being performed, by men who are clrgy and homosexual themselves and all this is tolerated in the name and the blessing of Christ…come on, who do you think you are kidding!

Rom 1:24-27 NASB (Catholic and Trinitarian)

“Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.”

There you have it, what next will be tolerated?

The blind leading the Blind!

Arius

 

[arius325]

Is this the Catholic Catechism? Why don’t you cite the official Catechism of the Catholic Church and the paragraph that you think supports your position? It’s available online for free so you can point to where you think there is a contradiction:

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

And if you take the time to answer this, why won’t you answer my ongoing question about the faithful & discreet slave?

Reply,

Are you blind, I did and was very specific and the Catholic bible to boot! Go back to sleep!

 

[AntalKalnoky]

So how do you know the Bible you read has all the books that God intended since God did not include a table of contents?

Study the History of the Bible, and each Book; the Bible is a Library, noty A Book. Best way to study imo is the $9.00 USCCB New American Bible, with Each Book history explained, and innumerable References and facinating footnotes. 3 Church Councils decided Which Books Belonged in the Bible as Most Accurate and most Used in the 30o’s; Many Hundreds weree Dismissed as too larte and incorrect: the gnostic books Much larter than the Bible. Good Question. :bible1:

Only the Catholic Church Lives the Full Bible, and only we have been around 2000 Years, Knowing the Original Languages and Cultures that Wrote It.

 

[Not_Religious]

Interesting thread. As a non-practicing, baptized Catholic…I tend to believe the Jehovah’s Witnesses, at least the ones I know, are more knowledgeable about the Bible than any Catholic I’ve ever met.

What do they do in the Kingdom Hall? They READ from the Bible. Not a pre-planned booklet as the Catholic church does. It’s a meeting where everyone who raises their hand gets an opportunity to read, discuss and speak about what they’ve read, rather than listen to a priest recite the same thing over and over. There are no rituals, no idol worship, no money collection. There are collection boxes if one feels like donating. But a collection basket is NEVER passed around.

There are no crucifixes, or any cross for that matter. As it was explained to me, to display a cross with the body of Christ hanging from it is the same as if your loved one died in a car accident and you took to wearing a little battered car around your neck with your loved one’s dead body in it. Why would anybody do that?

There is no sit, stand, kneel. There are songbooks, Bibles of many different translations…NIV, King James, etc., and a very well organized library of literature for the purpose of answering questions, researching, and educating oneself on Bible truths.

It isn’t a cult. There are no “mysteries.” When a Jehovah’s Witness comes knocking at your door, they do it out of love for Jehovah God (yup, that’s his name…it’s in the Bible). It’s done out of love, not guilt.

You might be amazed to know that awhile back I asked a question somewhere on this site and I was responded to, privately, by someone who was too ashamed to admit for everyone to see…that I was right. Mary is not the “mother of God.” The member stated that an open response may offend some members.

Every religion thinks theirs is the truth. That’s why I don’t belong to any organized religion. Not even JW’s…I don’t agree with everything they do. But I do know one thing…God wants us to know His word. Read the Bible. Study and decide for yourself what something in it means to you. God knows what’s in our hearts. And disrespecting others religious views is something that is not pleasing to Him.

“See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world, rather than Christ.”–Collosians 2:8

 

[PRmerger]

Interesting thread. As a non-practicing, baptized Catholic…I tend to believe the Jehovah’s Witnesses, at least the ones I know, are more knowledgeable about the Bible than any Catholic I’ve ever met.

This is probably true. Although I’d posit that they know certain parts of the Bible, and certain parts (esp. John 6) they gloss over. It’s really up to their fallible leader (elder?) as to what passages they study, no? So I guess a JW could study an entire year with someone and not read certain passages, because this leader does not find them to be his favorite? I dunno.

What do they do in the Kingdom Hall? They READ from the Bible. Not a pre-planned booklet as the Catholic church does.

Did you know, Non-Religious, that the only way you know that Colossians is inspired is because the Catholic Church discerned this for you centuries ago?

So each and every time you proclaim a verse from Scripture you are giving tacit authority and obeying the Catholic Church.

 

[Big_Dummy]

Generally, I would stick with the biggies, such as the Trinity, references to Christ’s divinity, etc. JW’s are basically Arians so its a great place to begin. I had to laugh at your position on wanting to speak with them. I am the same way and always was receiving advice on how to get rid of them, rather then how to deal with them. So I made my own rule. I always told them that I would sit down with them if they promised to come back at least five times, as there was little we could accomplish in an hour. After that first meeting, I never had them return.

I had an employee who was JW. We had quite a few discussions until she got backed into a corner and was advised by the “Elders” to stop conversing with me. That was after I had found an old Watchtower that stated that JW’s should “hate the enemies of God” (anyone who is not JW) with a “pure hatred” and asked her for an explanation in light of Christ’s command to love our enemies…

The JW’s have an obsession with the Catholic Church. I always found it helpful to fill them in on a little Church history, of which they are almost completely ignorant. They believe in all kinds of myths about our Church so it’s kind of fun to put those to rest.

Good luck.

Haters of God and his people are to be hated, but this does not mean that we will take any opportunity of bringing physical hurt to them in a spirit of malice or spite, for both malice and spite belong to the Devil, whereas pure hatred does not. We must hate in the truest sense, which is to regard with extreme and active aversion, to consider as loathsome, odious, filthy, to detest. Surely any haters of God are not fit to live on his beautiful earth. The earth will be rid of the wicked and we shall not need to lift a finger to cause physical harm to come to them, for God will attend to that, but we must have a proper perspective of these enemies. His name signifies recompense to the enemies.

(Watchtower 1952 October 1 p.599)

 

[Big_Dummy]

This is indeed a peculiar rationale–bad things happen on birthdays in the Bible, therefore the celebration of birthdays is condemned.

I suppose, by the same reasoning, one could conclude: bad things happen in Egypt, therefore visiting Egypt is condemned by the Bible, eh?

Do the JWs proclaim this I wonder?

If one scans the newspapers for the day they were born and finds bad things, does that then mean they should have not been born?