Scripture: What's myth and what's history?

[mpartyka]

The creation story is symbolism showing Man’s fall

But is it accurate symbolism? Evolution suggests that death is something that was built into humanity – indeed, into all life – all through its development. (Indeed, evolution implies the existence of death, for without the death of the “unfit”, natural selection has no mechanism by which to work.) Under this paradigm, the story of Genesis amounts not to a description of a Fall from a better state already possessed by mankind, but rather a Fall from a better state offered to mankind by God in exchange for obedience to the divine will.

The tower of babel symbolic story of different languages and cultures etc. The writers wrote in a way for people to understand

Why not simply say, “And over time, people developed their own languages as well as their own cultures” if not for the fact that nobody could really explain the existence of multiple languages without invoking divine intervention?

Noah and his ark, showing how God gave humans another chance. It is factual though that there was a great flood of the Earth.

But how “great” was the great flood? The Bible implies the flood was (1) worldwide and (2) wiped out every land animal except for the pairs or humans and animals saved by Noah. There is zero evidence in the geological or archaological record that a worldwide flood ever took place. If you’re satisfied with the story of Noah’s Ark’s being a symbolic exaggeration of an actual local flood event, then fine. But given that St. Peter refers to only “eight souls” as having been saved from the flood, do you think that the Apostles had any idea they were referring to a story of a local event that, for symbloic purposes, had been exaggerated to global proportions?

–Mike

 

[Fox]

I can see your view on the creation story and Man’s fall, I can agree. I also see it as our first parents did something really bad and disobeyed God thus seperating us from God thus the need for Jesus.

The tower story was crafted the way it was because people that didn’t know about the migratory paths of ancient man, like we know now. Man moved all over the Earth and over time developed their own languages and cultural identity. The writers needed to convey why we have the languages and cultures.

Hawaiians, Babylonians, Incans, Greeks, Aztecs have accounts of a great flood, whether its related to the Noah flood, is to be seen. The floods though didn’t kill everyone nor all the animals. If it was a world flood, with all that rainfall, the humidity would kill all when they breathed including Noah and co.

I think Peter used “the eight souls” reference because he was limited in his thought built on his local or regional knowledge. To him there was only 8 people left because that is what was handed down to him for that time. I really believe that the Apostles were using all that was available to them at the time and steering people amiss was not their intentions and I really believe they thought it was a global flood from God when in all acounts a local or regional event.

 

[StAnastasia]

Noah and his ark, showing how God gave humans another chance. It is factual though that there was a great flood of the Earth.

Do you have evidence for this great flood of the Earth from geology and hydrology, paleontology and sedimentology?

 

[twb1621]

Do you have evidence for this great flood of the Earth from geology and hydrology, paleontology and sedimentology?

Oh I do… I live in the Northern mountains of West Virginia and the lime stone is loaded with fossils of sea crustaceans all the way to the top of any mountain. Really cool… its obvious the mountain tops were the sea beds at one time.

 

[mpartyka]

Oh I do… I live in the Northern mountains of West Virginia and the lime stone is loaded with fossils of sea crustaceans all the way to the top of any mountain. Really cool…

But might that not be because what you see at the top of the mountains now was once at the bottom of the oceans?

Not to say that some features of geology weren’t formed through catastrophes, but catastrophism is generally considered the exception in geological development rather than the rule.

–Mike

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Oh really, I never heard that before. I must have missed that sermon.

Here’s another quote from that article:

Nice attitude there So according to the view of scripture you are defending here, the notion that God entered the world as Jesus is absurd.

In some sense, it is absurd - yet it is also a fact. ​

If faith in Christ could be proved true by reason, it would not be worth wasting time on. Crucifying Christ was a very rational undertaking - but that’s not led Christians to think well of it. There is no salvation in reason - as 1 Corinthians points out.

 

[Catholic_Johnny]

I think Peter used “the eight souls” reference because he was limited in his thought built on his local or regional knowledge. To him there was only 8 people left because that is what was handed down to him for that time. I really believe that the Apostles were using all that was available to them at the time and steering people amiss was not their intentions and I really believe they thought it was a global flood from God when in all acounts a local or regional event.

Really? St. Peter also said this:

We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming 9 of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father 10 when that unique declaration came to him from the majestic glory, “This is my Son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased.” 18 We 11 ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. (2 Peter 1)

And perhaps you missed the quote from Pius the XII’s Papal Encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu:

Finally it is absolutely wrong and forbidden “either to narrow inspiration to certain passages of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred,” since divine inspiration “not only is essentially incompatible with error but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and constant faith of the Church.”[9]

There are many people on this forum who are going to have some ‘splainin’ to do when they meet the Saints whose words they are mangling and disfiguring.

 

[twb1621]

But might that not be because what you see at the top of the mountains now was once at the bottom of the oceans?

Not to say that some features of geology weren’t formed through catastrophes, but catastrophism is generally considered the exception in geological development rather than the rule.

–Mike

I’m not a geologist mine you, but these are limestone formations within the mountain, not lying loosely or once loosely on it. Geologists often come out here to collect rock of many kinds but those are awesome. Hundreds of small fossils can be easily found by breaking apart rock walls along the cliffs and such. The point is, the tops of the mountains were the bottom of the ocean at one time, thats my only point. As I said, I am no Geologist.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

But might that not be because what you see at the top of the mountains now was once at the bottom of the oceans?

Not to say that some features of geology weren’t formed through catastrophes, but catastrophism is generally considered the exception in geological development rather than the rule.

–Mike

The oldest tree now living is a 4,600+ year old bristlecone called “Methuselah” in the White Mountains of California. Some reports have it as 4,789 years old.

If the flood happened when the bible says it did, how did this tree survive? The bible dates the flood at 2400 years before Christ. This tree was 200 years old then. How did it survive the flood?

 

[mpartyka]

The oldest tree now living is a 4,600+ year old bristlecone called “Methuselah” in the White Mountains of California. Some reports have it as 4,789 years old. If the flood happened when the bible says it did, how did this tree survive? The bible dates the flood at 2400 years before Christ. This tree was 200 years old then. How did it survive the flood?

I don’t think plants were considered in the mind of the ancients to be “alive” in the same sense that animals and humans are alive. Thus, the ancients would have seen no reason to suspect that inundation with water would have had a deleterious effect on plant life. (The same goes for fish, it would seem, since there seems to have been no effort on Noah’s part to gather freshwater fish into the ark.)

–Mike

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I don’t think plants were considered in the mind of the ancients to be “alive” in the same sense that animals and humans are alive. Thus, the ancients would have seen no reason to suspect that inundation with water would have had a deleterious effect on plant life. (The same goes for fish, it would seem, since there seems to have been no effort on Noah’s part to gather freshwater fish into the ark.)

–Mike

What I’m asking is, how did the tree survive? Trees cant live underwater for 40 days, especially species adapted to mountain climates. This tree is living proof that its area was not flooded in 2400BC.

 

[StAnastasia]

I don’t think plants were considered in the mind of the ancients to be “alive” in the same sense that animals and humans are alive. --Mike

That sounds like disingenuous fundamentalist special pleading. God said “And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.” There are possibly thirty million species in all, and they all have to e saved. On a literal interpretation, the ark would have foundered at the start.

StAnastasia

 

[twb1621]

What I’m asking is, how did the tree survive? Trees cant live underwater for 40 days, especially species adapted to mountain climates. This tree is living proof that its area was not flooded in 2400BC.

If you consider everything else that tree must have lived through in that much time I doubt 40 days under water would have been its worst experience…

 

[StAnastasia]

The oldest tree now living is a 4,600+ year old bristlecone called “Methuselah” in the White Mountains of California. Some reports have it as 4,789 years old.

If the flood happened when the bible says it did, how did this tree survive? The bible dates the flood at 2400 years before Christ. This tree was 200 years old then. How did it survive the flood?

I’ve visited Methuselah while hiking in those mountains. That area cannot possibly have been flooded, as it is at least ten thousand feet above sea level.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

If you consider everything else that tree must have lived through in that much time I doubt 40 days under water would have been its worst experience…

Oh, what kind of worse things do you suppose it survived through?

 

[Fox]

Really? St. Peter also said this:

We did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming 9 of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we had been eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received honor and glory from God the Father 10 when that unique declaration came to him from the majestic glory, “This is my Son, my beloved, with whom I am well pleased.” 18 We 11 ourselves heard this voice come from heaven while we were with him on the holy mountain. 19 Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. (2 Peter 1) And perhaps you missed the quote from Pius the XII’s Papal Encyclical Divino Afflante Spiritu:

Quote:
Finally it is absolutely wrong and forbidden “either to narrow inspiration to certain passages of Holy Scripture, or to admit that the sacred writer has erred,” since divine inspiration “not only is essentially incompatible with error but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true. This is the ancient and constant faith of the Church.”[9]
There are many people on this forum who are going to have some ‘splainin’ to do when they meet the Saints whose words they are mangling and disfiguring.

The first quote is about Christ not of the flood, I don’t have a problem of the Divinity of Christ or his prophecy. I believe the Apostles had the full prophecy of who Christ is. Everything in the Bible said of Christ is completely true and factual.

Also, I’m not against what the Bible says, I’m just using God’s gift of reason and thought to come to my conclusions. God doesn’t like ignorance nor closed mindedness. I haven’t mangled anyone’s words. Also did Pius XII speak infallibly on this? He didn’t, so there is a possibility he could of been wrong, not to say he was but there is the possibility. Many Popes through history have written their thoughts and years later were found to be false.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

That sounds like disingenuous fundamentalist special pleading. God said “And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.” There are possibly thirty million species in all, and they all have to e saved. On a literal interpretation, the ark would have foundered at the start.

StAnastasia

And it shows that attempts to save the credit of the narrative by looking at it as though the narrative were told with twentieth-century knowledge of the world, merely make it a lie for the ancients. If they did not include plants among living things - neither should we. If we do (as we should) it makes no sense to defend an ancient text with knowledge not known when it was compiled.​

Fundamentalism has a habit of doing this.

There is no reason not to read the text literally - except for us. That’s not the problem for the composer: it’s ours. Only if forced to be a sort of writing it is not intended to be do the absurdities of Fundamentalism arise - it is Fundamentalists, nobody else (such as the composer) who insist it’s historical writing. Where does the text claim to be factual or inspired or Scripture ? Nowhere. The only people to read the text literally are the scholars - Fundamentalists put it to endless tortures, to make it mean almost anything but what it could mean: & they vilify the scholars unceasingly for not distorting it.

 

[twb1621]

Oh, what kind of worse things do you suppose it survived through?

Don’t know, lightening or storms, volcanoes, high winds, FLOODS , insects, extreme temperatures, beaver, and the after affects of any one or all of these.

 

[twb1621]

The first quote is about Christ not of the flood, I don’t have a problem of the Divinity of Christ or his prophecy. I believe the Apostles had the full prophecy of who Christ is. Everything in the Bible said of Christ is completely true and factual.

Also, I’m not against what the Bible says, I’m just using God’s gift of reason and thought to come to my conclusions. God doesn’t like ignorance nor closed mindedness. I haven’t mangled anyone’s words. Also did Pius XII speak infallibly on this? He didn’t, so there is a possibility he could of been wrong, not to say he was but there is the possibility. Many Popes through history have written their thoughts and years later were found to be false.

We must always use reason but sometimes reason should remind us that we are limited in understanding when it comes to God and we can not always come to a reasonable understanding of Him or His ways or reasons.

 

[StAnastasia]

Don’t know, lightening or storms, volcanoes, high winds, FLOODS , insects, extreme temperatures, beaver, and the after affects of any one or all of these.

Methuselah is on a steep hillside well up from the canyon bottom, so it has not suffered a flood (and the soil is not conducive to flooding anyway). Closest dormant volcano is about fifty miles away, and the prevailing winds would never send volcanic plumes south along the Owens Valley. Insects yes, and high winds, lightning storms, and extreme cold (but not hot) temperatures. No beavers up that high and on such a desert plateau. Never suffered a “Noachian flood,” as its seed took root long before Noah existed, and there was no floodwater that could have reached it.

StAnastasia