Scrupulosity

[Karen10]

… and to realize that we *never will *“measure up” on our own. We need to trust that God will do that for us, in His mercy. The failure to realize this has to do with the pride factor that Spiritblows was talking about.

 

[Catholic_Heart]

I agree that there is often a sprit of meaness and rigidty here. The term “More Catholic than the Pope” comes to mind when I read posts that are overly concerned with “catching” those who do not perfectly follow the rules, so to speak. I think some people LOOK for things to complain and whine about…They LOOK for abuses in the liturgy when there are none, and thus miss out on its beauty. It’s sad, and depressing to see the scrupulosity that passes for faith. The constant concern with being “right”, and “holy”, and “sinless”, does do a disservice to our Catholic faith.

This is a problem faced by fundamentalist Protestants, too. There is a preoccupation with rididly following rules, doing or not doing one thing or another and being a Christian (or a good Catholic) becomes not a matter of faith, but a matter of following the letter of all the laws, They often do not care who they hurt, or how harsh and mean they appear to be…Surely Jesus would not act this way…

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi Karen10,

You touch on a great point about people thinking great Saints are scrupulous- And people struggling to grow in holiness. This article from the same book is very enlightening.
This article follows on from explainations of who is a scrupulous person and other info…

Perfectionism - By Fr Lowery C.Ss.R.

The questions above vividly illustrate the anxiety and the concern that is devoted to answering the question," Does God love me?" In the attempt to answer the question, the scrupulous person often determines that the best choice may be to move from a position of questioning to a position of perceived strength. " I will make God love me by becoming perfect. In this way God will have to love me. " An enormous amount of energy is wasted by the scrupulous person trying to “fix” himself or herself or trying to become perfect. I often asked the person who comes to me with such a preoccupationto try and refocus their energy and attention. Instead of trying to make yourself pleasing to God, imagine how much more hopeful it might be to try and accept yourself exactly as you are. Imagine yourself loved by God, not as you one day might be, but exactly as you are today, at this present moment, now, in love. Quite a challenge, and not just for the scrupulous person.
Most of us are willing to accept other people, with their faults, weaknesses, and other little irritations, but when it comes to ourselves, we become perfectionists. Suddenly every little fault, every little weakness, and every little irritation becomes a major obstacle to self-love and acceptance of who we are. In such an instance, we find ourselves repeating, again and again, if only I could become…
For the person struggling with scrupulosity, there is oftentimes a conviction that everything needs to be perfect before God will accept him or her. Of course, this desire for an impossible perfection is a manifestation of scrupulosity and an indication of how the affliction affects the decision-making process. In this instance the time and energy spent trying to become perfect so that the person can be pleasing to God ultimately means learning not to be scrupulous, which is the ultimate" imperfection"

QUESTION : One great difficulty for me is that I must do everything perfectly. My prayers must be said perfectly; I must meditate perfectly without interuption. I am always asking, " How can I do everything more perfectly so God will be pleased with me?"

ANSWER : Perfectionism is an unrealistic expectation of what a human person is capable of in the moral order. It is simply not possible for a human person to do everything perfectly. It is very important that you try and accept your human condition and not place unreasonable expectations on your self. Moreover, it is clear you have a wrong image of God. God does not love you because you do everything perfectly. God loves you, in the words of St Paul, " not because of any righteous deed we have done, but because of His mercy…"(Titus 3:5). God’s love for you is unconditional. Nothing can make God stop loving you, not even sin. Fr John Powell S.J., expresses God’s unconditional love in this way:" I want to love you. That is all. I just want to love you. " I will leave you free, but I will always love you."

 

[Orionthehunter]

This is a “plank in the eye” issue for so many people. I have my “plank” too. Unfortunately, scrupulosity “self-justifies” itself in a way that must make it extremely hard to overcome.

When I commit the sin for which I most struggle, I know it is a sin but I “rationalize” it away but immediately afterwards feel guilty. I am very grateful that my cross is one that is so easy to identify even though I am equally bothered by my inability to overcome it. But for those overly-scrupulous, they don’t get the immediate feedback because their sin actually manifests itself in something good (observing rituals, being pious and/or orthodox, cleaning the house, picking up after your “slob” kids, etc.) and appears to be sacrificial.

To a large degree, this is my wife’s weakness. She is a good generous person who struggles w/ being a “control freak”. If I were asked to list her weaknesses it is:

1. She is too involved in our children’s lives,
2. She keeps too clean a house
3. She is too involved in my life (when we are watching TV and I get up to go the the bathroom, she doesn’t wait to see what I’m doing but has to ask me “What are you doing?”)
4. When babysitting our grandkids, she will clean our daughters house.
5. There is a similar list regarding religious practices that is too long to list here.

My views on these issues:

1. Sometimes we need to let our children learn their own lessons. Or it leads to unnecessary resentment that neither my kids or wife understands. My kids know it is becuase she loves them but at the same time the recognize that it doesn’t always feel loving.
2. Sometimes I want her to leave the kitchen a mess, grab a bottle of wine, come to bed early and just cuddle and watch a movie. She thinks it is just me condoning one of my weaknesses (sloth).
3. The question comes off sometimes to me as if she needs to assess whether what I’m doing is really necessary or she is always questioning what I’m doing.
4. She should spend this time playing w/ the kids.
5. She sometimes misses the spiritual point of the practice in her scrupulous desire to do it exactly right.

But it is so hard to verbalize these items because each and every things she does is good and sacrificial. It is part and parcel to her love for her family and her God. And to some degree, this weakness is her strength and why I love her. She gets up every day trying to organize her day in the way she best thinks she can serve those around her.

My point: Scrupulosity to me is a weakness that must be extremely hard to overcome because it is so hard to identify the sinful part and those around this person know and even like how this behaviour benefits them (I for instance never, ever have to worry about the house not being clean and a great meal on the table every night). I think everyone that has posted on this thread seems to understand this. Unfortunately, I don’t think that the overly scrupulous person will read this thread and if they do, I wonder if they will recognize themself in the thread. For this reason, I think this is where the prayer of others can make the difference.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

For the benefit of any who may want to know -
I will quote some definitions of the scrupulous person-

Symptoms - From the same book I’ve been quoting-

QUESTION : I wonder if I am really scrupulous or if I am just using it as an excuse. How can a person really determine whether or not there is a real case of scruples?

ANSWER : There are no mathematical guidelines that can be applied, and the dividing line between scruples and ordinary garden variety worries is sometimes hard to determine. It might help to compare yourself with relatives and close friends. Do you fret intensely about matters that don’t seem to worry them? This may well be a sign that you do not have your conscience in a healthy, normal state of balance.

QUESTION : Please explain the difference between adelicate conscience and a scrupulous conscience.

ANSWER : A delicate conscience is one that is well informed about the moral law, able to make correct judgements about what is right and wrong, and desirous of avoiding all sin, even the smallest. It is no doubt true to say that the saints possessed delicate consciences. A scrupulous conscience is is one that is either not well informed about the moral law ( in other words, tends to interpret as sinful what is not sinful) or not able to make correct judgments about what is right and wrong ( that is to say, groundless fears and nameless anxieties tend to interfere with correct judgments). St Alphonsus encouraged his penitents to pray that they might have a delicate conscience and pray that they may NOT have a scrupulous conscience.

QUESTION : What really is scrupulosity? Is it a mental or an emotional sickness? How does it differ from ordinary worry?

ANSWER : Scrupulosity may be defined as a habitual state of mind that, because of an unreasonable fear of sin, inclines a person to judge certain thoughts or actions sinful when they aren’t, or that they are more gravely wrong than they really are. Emphasis must be placed on the assertion that scruples involve an unreasonable fear of sin. If a person merely makes a mistake and thinks an action to be wrong that is not wrong, he is not necessarily scrupulous. Scrupulosity involves an emotional condition that interferes with the proper working of the mind and produces a judgment not in accordance with objective truth, but with the emotion of fear. Scrupulosity is, then, nothing else bu an anxiety neurosis concerned with moral matters.

 

[Karen10]

Hi John, I get what it says, but some of it doesn’t jive with my understanding. In the interest of conversation, I’ll show how:

Perfectionism

“Does God love me?” In the attempt to answer the question, the scrupulous person often determines that the best choice may be to move from a position of questioning to a position of perceived strength. “I will make God love me by becoming perfect. In this way God will have to love me.” An enormous amount of energy is wasted by the scrupulous person trying to “fix” himself or herself by relying too much on self instead of on God (which is what St. Faustina was doing when she slipped up in her quest for spiritual perfection). I often asked the person who comes to me with such a preoccupation to try and refocus their energy and attention. Imagine how much more hopeful it might be to try and accept that we rely on God and that only He can make us worthy. It is by His merit and not our own, that we can become pleasing to Him, regardless of His unconditional love for even for the worst of sinners. This is because all good things come from Him, not us. But spiritual perfection is the goal, which is why we are further cleansed in Purgatory if necessary.

The definition of spiritual perfection is not what many think it is. People are afraid to use the word “perfection” lest they discourage themselves. Rightly so, if they are mistaken on what it is. It is being perfectly aligned with God’s will instead of our own. In becoming aligned, we rely heavily on God’s mercy when we fall to our own will. We accept the mercy with joy, and we respond with even more love for God, and move on with hope.

Imagine yourself loved by God, not as you one day might be, but exactly as you are today, whether or not you have been displeasing to Him, at this present moment, now, in love. Quite a challenge for anyone.

We can become perfectionists with the wrong understanding of how to pursue spiritual perfection. Suddenly every little fault and every little weakness becomes a major obstacle to acceptance of the fact that we need God, and cannot become perfect on our own merit. We are so mired in sin and imperfection that Christ had to die for it. We’re NOT “good enough”. He didn’t come to Earth to institute the sacrament of confession and then zip back up. In this light, we learn to more fully give ourselves to God, love Him, and trust in His mercy as we take up our own part in our redemption (see Salvifici Doloris).

In such an instance, we find ourselves repeating, again and again, if only I could become…
For the person struggling with scrupulosity, there is oftentimes a conviction that everything needs to be perfect before God will love him or her, or refuse to show them mercy. Of course, a misunderstanding of “perfection” is a common symptom of scrupulosity and an indication of why we are discouraging ourselves. In this instance the time and energy spent trying to become “perfect” so that the person can be pleasing to God ultimately means becoming humbled, not scrupulous. The danger is pride–reliance on one’s self and not God, which becomes a source of immense discouragement.

QUESTION : One great difficulty for me is that I must do everything perfectly. My prayers must be said perfectly; I must meditate perfectly without interuption. I am always asking, " How can I do everything more perfectly so God will be pleased with me?"

ANSWER : Perfectionism is an unrealistic expectation of what a human person is capable of in the moral order. It is simply not possible for a human person to do everything perfectly. It is very important that you try and accept your human condition and not place unreasonable expectations on your self. It is possible, however, to become perfectly aligned with God’s will; it is demanded of us.

Moreover, it is clear you have a wrong image of God. God does not love you because you do everything perfectly. God loves you, in the words of St Paul, " not because of any righteous deed we have done, but because of His mercy…"(Titus 3:5). [This does not exclude His being *displeased with us when we sin. :nope:]

God’s love for you is unconditional.

 

[spiritblows]

Catholic Heart:

I agree that there is often a sprit of meaness and rigidty here. The term “More Catholic than the Pope” comes to mind when I read posts that are overly concerned with “catching” those who do not perfectly follow the rules, so to speak. I think some people LOOK for things to complain and whine about…They LOOK for abuses in the liturgy when there are none, and thus miss out on its beauty. It’s sad, and depressing to see the scrupulosity that passes for faith. The constant concern with being “right”, and “holy”, and “sinless”, does do a disservice to our Catholic faith.

This is a problem faced by fundamentalist Protestants, too. There is a preoccupation with rididly following rules, doing or not doing one thing or another and being a Christian (or a good Catholic) becomes not a matter of faith, but a matter of following the letter of all the laws, They often do not care who they hurt, or how harsh and mean they appear to be…Surely Jesus would not act this way…

I’m not sure if being exacting about the Liturgy and rules of the Mass is the same as scrupulosity. I think the overly scrupulous person tends toward doubting God’s mercy towards them, and becomes overly concerned about their own sins to the point of obsession.

Folks who over-scrutinize the behaviour of others, or how the Mass is conducted I believe might fall into another catagory, I’m not sure what that would be. Maybe there’s some overlap, I don’t know.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

We have to also keep in mind that people undergoing a deep inner conversion can appear to be scrupulous, when in fact, it is simply part of the conversion process. One step in the process is that of purgation and it when one encounters it, it is as if you had taken a spiritual laxative.

I’ve been Catholic all my life, but was not living the life of a Catholic, other than to go to Church each Sunday. I couldn’t get out of Mass fast enough. Then one day the inner conversion begain. For decades I had not gone to confession but once or twice yearly, then just prior to that conversion, I had not gone in two years. That all changed as the purge began.

I was going every two weeks, then every week. My confessor encouraged me to cough up anything that came up, even though it was already absolved. I kept remembering things and some of those things I could deal with on my own, while other things weighed so heavily that I could not budge spiritually. Because some of these things were more venial in nature, any other priest could have told me I was scrupulous. But he didn’t. I too was confused over venial versus mortal at times. I understood the difference between the two, but applying it to individual cases seemed hard. It can seem like the world is coming down on your shoulders. But, if one is carefully guided through this process, as I was, it leads to something far greater from a spiritual development standpoint.

My confessor is a diocesan priest who also happens to be a third order carmelite. He is very familiar with the works of St. John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila, and the other mystics. He understands the process. I think much harm could have come to my spiritual well-being, if someone inexperienced had dismissed my confessions as scrupulous. I still go weekly now, but I am not in a crushed and devastated state over my sinfulness. I go weekly to work on issues of virtue.

I think the real mark of a scrupulous person is not simply frequent confession, but confessing the same thing again and again with no growth. The person becomes paralyzed where they are at and cannot grow. They can stagnate spiritually for years.

It truly takes an expert to recognize the difference between a purely scrupulous person and one in a purgative or illuminative state - the latter being where even the venial can seem to weigh heavily.

newadvent.org/cathen/14254a.htm

newadvent.org/cathen/13640a.htm

 

[spiritblows]

Dear Lux,
I think you make a very salient point. I went through a period like that as well. I think I’m due for another round of more instense personal scrutiny. With the new year I really need to get back into a deeper spiritual walk with more personal scrutiny, as I’ve let myself slip.

That’s the other side of the coin, of course, is spiritual laxity.

 

[Orionthehunter]

spiritblows:

I’m not sure if being exacting about the Liturgy and rules of the Mass is the same as scrupulosity. I think the overly scrupulous person tends toward doubting God’s mercy towards them, and becomes overly concerned about their own sins to the point of obsession.

**Folks who over-scrutinize the behaviour of others, or how the Mass is conducted I believe might fall into another catagory, I’m not sure what that would be. Maybe there’s some overlap, I don’t know./**QUOTE]
Spirit, I do think they more than overlap but are symptoms of the same problem. My wife’s pursuit of perfection in herself also causes her to focus excessively on the imperfection of others. The more she loves someone, the more it bothers her. I think for a devout Catholic suffering w/ scrupulosity, they will also focus excessively on the right practice of others.

 

[spiritblows]

Dear Orion,
Yes, that might be true. There are some folks,though, that more obsess over themselves, and some that are more obsessed with others as their focus, and then some who do both.

Sorry about your wife, that sounds like a trial.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi, I’m not sure what your getting at, but this is meant for someone with scruples and in no way is suggesting that we should not strive to be saints. God loves us with all our imperfection and even when we fail - a lot or not. God even loves the soul in hell. They just don’t feel it. If you can clarify what you are saying I will be glad to reply.
God bless you.

Karen10:

Hi John, I get what it says, but some of it doesn’t jive with my understanding. In the interest of conversation, I’ll show how:

 

[Karen10]

Hi John Russell,

The Fr.'s advice about God’s love is right on target and paramount. I just got the sense with this “self-acceptance” talk that maybe he isn’t getting something across that he should: That God does get displeased with us, and that in a sense, we do have to strive for a certain kind of perfection.

“Perfection” shouldn’t become a dirty word either for the spiritually lax or for the scrupulous, because a type of it is actually demanded of us. It’s important to distinguish between, “God loves us no matter what” (true) and “God is pleased with us and accepts us no matter what we do” (false). The perfection I’m talking about is having our will perfectly aligned with God’s. (My study bible explains that this is often the meaning of righteous in many NT verses).

I mean, God accepts sinners, but the Church–scripture and tradition–makes it pretty clear that it’s on the condition of repentance. Even if we don’t repent, He still loves us, but that’s different from *accepting *us. So we can’t give the impression that “we’re good enough the way we are” when we are in the state of mortal sin. In that case, we’re good enough to love. But good enough to be pleasing to God and accepted by Him? Not till we repent, at least. Does that make my other words more clear? I can get in over my head trying to write about this stuff to the point that I know I can get confusing. And I’m not 100% sure I’ve got it; I’m just writing this as I understand it. Feel free to help me by nitpicking and correcting me.

There’s a certain approach people can take if they’re not careful, that undermines the severity of sin. Even the healthy, correct, non-scrupulous balance still involves a hatred of sin that can be seen as rather austere when these people are talking about it. That’s why I think some people with this heightened awareness and disgust for sin might be mistaken for scrupulous people.

Recently, we Catholics had some heresy floating around (I don’t mean on this board, I mean in general). People were saying, “If you’re generally a very good person and happen to commit a grave sin before you die, you’ll probably still go to heaven”. I think JPII spoke out against this heresy, and there’s a name for it but it eludes me at the moment. He warned us to be careful not to undermine the severity of sin.

 

[Karen10]

Lux_et_veritas:

We have to also keep in mind that people undergoing a deep inner conversion can appear to be scrupulous, when in fact, it is simply part of the conversion process. One step in the process is that of purgation and it when one encounters it, it is as if you had taken a spiritual laxative.

This was very enlightening, Lux_et_veritas. Thanks for posting it. You’re blessed to have had a confessor who knew the difference.

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

Hi Karen10,
I think you understand what is being said- from your comments. The priest is talking about scrupulous people who do everything in their power to try and not offend God or people. Scrupulous people have a neurosis- so they need to stop fretting about possible sins- that usually aren’t sins at all. We are all called to be saints, but for the scrupulous person they simply have it wrong. The priest is trying to help them. The scrupulous person always has the intention to please God - and that does please God. But they think they are not pleasing God. This is why the priest takes the assumption that the scrupulous person should feel they are pleasing to God, even if they sin. If they spend all their time going to great pains to please God, then they have. They need to know this.
With your last question you may be referring to the lukewarm. Jesus said," would that you were hot or cold, but that you are lukewarm I will vomit you forth."
The scrupulous are hot in this sense and they don’t realise it- that’s what the priest is trying to correct in them.
By the way - thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut on the subject.

Karen10:

Hi John Russell,

The Fr.'s advice about God’s love is right on target and paramount. I just got the sense with this “self-acceptance” talk that maybe he isn’t getting something across that he should: That God does get displeased with us, and that in a sense, we do have to strive for a certain kind of perfection.

“Perfection” shouldn’t become a dirty word either for the spiritually lax or for the scrupulous, because a type of it is actually demanded of us. It’s important to distinguish between, “God loves us no matter what” (true) and “God is pleased with us and accepts us no matter what we do” (false). The perfection I’m talking about is having our will perfectly aligned with God’s. (My study bible explains that this is often the meaning of righteous in many NT verses).

I mean, God accepts sinners, but the Church–scripture and tradition–makes it pretty clear that it’s on the condition of repentance. Even if we don’t repent, He still loves us, but that’s different from *accepting *us. So we can’t give the impression that “we’re good enough the way we are” when we are in the state of mortal sin. In that case, we’re good enough to love. But good enough to be pleasing to God and accepted by Him? Not till we repent, at least. Does that make my other words more clear? I can get in over my head trying to write about this stuff to the point that I know I can get confusing. And I’m not 100% sure I’ve got it; I’m just writing this as I understand it. Feel free to help me by nitpicking and correcting me.

There’s a certain approach people can take if they’re not careful, that undermines the severity of sin. Even the healthy, correct, non-scrupulous balance still involves a hatred of sin that can be seen as rather austere when these people are talking about it. That’s why I think some people with this heightened awareness and disgust for sin might be mistaken for scrupulous people.

Recently, we Catholics had some heresy floating around (I don’t mean on this board, I mean in general). People were saying, “If you’re generally a very good person and happen to commit a grave sin before you die, you’ll probably still go to heaven”. I think JPII spoke out against this heresy, and there’s a name for it but it eludes me at the moment. He warned us to be careful not to undermine the severity of sin.

 

[Joysong]

Spiritblows:

I’m not sure if being exacting about the Liturgy and rules of the Mass is the same as scrupulosity.

Folks who over-scrutinize the behaviour of others, or how the Mass is conducted I believe might fall into another category, I’m not sure what that would be.

I believe the category falls under the eighth commandment, but these persons may not realize the depth of their “scrutinies” as being sinful, sad to say.

St. John of the Cross labels these imperfections spiritual pride, and *spiritual anger *in Dark Night of the Soul:

Spiritual Pride: These beginners feel so fervent and diligent in their exercises and undertakings that a certain kind of secret pride is generated in them which begets a complacency with themselves and their accomplishments. -skip- In their hearts, they condemn others who do not seem to have the kind of devotion they would like them to have, and sometimes they give expression to this criticism like the pharisee who despised the publican while he boasted and praised God for the good deeds he himself accomplished.

(Ch. 1:2) … And so by both word and deed, they condemn and detract others whenever the occasion arises, seeing the little mote in their brother’s eye, and failing to consider the beam in their own eye.

Spiritual Anger: Through a certain indiscreet zeal, they become angry over the sins of others, they reprove these others, and sometimes even feel the impulse to do so angrily, which in fact they occasionally do, setting themselves up as lords of virtue. All such conduct is contrary to spiritual meekness. (Ch. 5)

From the CCC:

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He become guilty:

• of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them.

2480 Every word or attitude is forbidden [which by flattery, adulation, or complaisance] encourages and confirms another in malicious acts and perverse conduct.

The problem with public detraction of a person’s failings to those who did not know them (such as on this forum), serves no objectively valid reason other than to voice one’s criticism and get it off their chest. If these persons are truly concerned, they would keep this quiet and report it solely to those who have authority to correct the alleged failing or abuse.

Why? Because it encourages the like behavior in the reader (CCC 2480) and subjects the reader to overcoming his own subsequent rash judgment, a failing in charity whereby we are obligated to put the best interpretation on another’s actions. After a thread of this type is initiated, we see others jump in and continue the rant and it becomes a free-for-all dishonoring another’s reputation, even though it may be true.

I know of no way to instruct such persons, but as St. John of the Cross teaches, these imperfections (and maybe even sins) are corrected through the disciplines of the Dark Night, passively, through the action of the Holy Spirit.

Carole

 

[John_Russell_Jr]

I believe it appropriate to post a document from Vatican II. This was, I believe, written by St Josemaria Escriva - the founder of Opus Dei. And I 100% support everything said in this document- even if I am so imperfect. It’s in a few sections-

**CHAPTER V **

**THE UNIVERSAL CALL TO HOLINESS IN THE CHURCH **
Check out the link for this beautiful document-
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

 

[Karen10]

John Russell Jr:

The scrupulous person always has the intention to please God - and that does please God. But they think they are not pleasing God. This is why the priest takes the assumption that the scrupulous person should feel they are pleasing to God, even if they sin.

Thanks for YOUR (name removed by moderator)ut I’d just change it a little to say that a scrupulous person can sin and become displeasing to God, like everyone else. I know I could be mistaken but I want to err on the side of caution, because I don’t think we even consider people with OCD to be 100% irrational. (I would however love to be mistaken on this when it comes to scrupulous people.) They can slip in their overall intention to please God like the rest of us, and just plain old sin with the intent to do it. This is despite their overall intention over a course of time. Their scrupulosity does not guarantee that they never actually sin. A scrupulous person knows this and they would not be mistaken. This “reality” (if I’m right) makes it trickier for us to help them. While intentions are pleasing to God, I’d just want to stress that an overall intention to be good doesn’t guarantee salvation when we do sin; JPII warned against this idea.

The best advice might be something you typed where you said that if there’s any doubt as to whether something is a sin, it’s probably not–at least not mortal–and they should not obsess over it. That’s the essence of what scrupulosity is, and it is discouraging. They’re probably obsessing over venial sins. Even venial sins are to be looked upon with a proper level of disgust but with the knowledge that they are not deadly.

But if they’re assured that these sins are venial sins, at best, then their time is better spent loving God back and keeping busy working on virtues that keep them from sinning. Do you think there’s anything to this, as a “medicine” for the scrupulous person? I have been tempted to be scrupulous and have caught myself, and I’m still in that Purgative state that Lux mentioned, which I also mistakenly thought was scrupulosity in myself. For me I found it helpful to keep busy, because then I wasn’t thinking about sins anymore. I was doing chores or whatever for the glory of God and felt more assured that I wasn’t sinning. It really helped. I wonder if this kind of focus can also help the scrupulous person, along with possible professional care?

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Joysong:

I believe the category falls under the eighth commandment, but these persons may not realize the depth of their “scrutinies” as being sinful, sad to say.

But pointing out as sinful, the act of discussing liturgical issues that occur in parishes is not itself scrutinizing? It is not judgmental in itself?

St. John of the Cross labels these imperfections spiritual pride, and *spiritual anger *in Dark Night of the Soul:

Spiritual Pride: These beginners feel so fervent and diligent in their exercises and undertakings that a certain kind of secret pride is generated in them which begets a complacency with themselves and their accomplishments. -skip- In their hearts, they condemn others who do not seem to have the kind of devotion they would like them to have, and sometimes they give expression to this criticism like the pharisee who despised the publican while he boasted and praised God for the good deeds he himself accomplished.

(Ch. 1:2) … And so by both word and deed, they condemn and detract others whenever the occasion arises, seeing the little mote in their brother’s eye, and failing to consider the beam in their own eye.

Spiritual Anger: Through a certain indiscreet zeal, they become angry over the sins of others, they reprove these others, and sometimes even feel the impulse to do so angrily, which in fact they occasionally do, setting themselves up as lords of virtue. All such conduct is contrary to spiritual meekness. (Ch. 5)

But singling out people who discuss liturgical issues in forums, in general, where those discussing have not named names or revealed identities, is not a form of finding fault in others? It is not an attempt to “condemn and detract others whenever the occasion arises, seeing the little mote…”?

I know people who jump in on any conversation they can and try to tell others that they are uncharitable for discussing liturgical issues occuring in their parishes, or worse, try to point out that these people are being sinful in some way because they discuss it.

From the CCC:

2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He become guilty:

• of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another’s faults and failings to persons who did not know them.

2480 Every word or attitude is forbidden [which by flattery, adulation, or complaisance] encourages and confirms another in malicious acts and perverse conduct.

The problem with public detraction of a person’s failings to those who did not know them (such as on this forum), serves no objectively valid reason other than to voice one’s criticism and get it off their chest. If these persons are truly concerned, they would keep this quiet and report it solely to those who have authority to correct the alleged failing or abuse.

Why? Because it encourages the like behavior in the reader (CCC 2480) and subjects the reader to overcoming his own subsequent rash judgment, a failing in charity whereby we are obligated to put the best interpretation on another’s actions. After a thread of this type is initiated, we see others jump in and continue the rant and it becomes a free-for-all dishonoring another’s reputation, even though it may be true.

I know of no way to instruct such persons, but as St. John of the Cross teaches, these imperfections (and maybe even sins) are corrected through the disciplines of the Dark Night, passively, through the action of the Holy Spirit.

Carole

There is only one way that calumny and detraction can be calumny and detraction, which would harm the reputation of others. There must be names. A reputation belongs to an identity and without an indenty revealed, there can be no detraction.

All this having been said, I think this conversation belongs in another post entirely as it has nothing to do with the subject of scrupulosity.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Back on the topic of scrupulosity, I had put this link up from New Advent in a previous post and within that lenghty discussion is this paragraph below. I’m going to break it up for white space…

It is of great importance to be able to make a correct diagnosis of this disease. Hence especially guides of consciences should be familiar with the symptoms that betray its presence as well as with the causes which commonly give rise to it.

For one thing, the confessor should not confound a delicate with a scrupulous conscience, neither should he interpret the reasonable solicitude sometimes discernible in those who are trying to emerge from a life of sin as a sign of scrupulosity.

Then, too, ordinarily he ought not to hastily reach this conclusion on the very first experience of his penitent. It is true there are cases of scruples which may be recognized from the start, but this is not the rule.

Some special indications that persons are really scrupulous, generally adopted by theologians are those enumerated by Lacroix. Among these is a certain rooted attachment to their own opinion which makes them unwilling to abide by the judgment of those whom they consult, even though these latter have every title to deference. In consequence, they go from one confessor to another, change their convictions with hardly a shadow of motive, and are tortured by an overshadowing dread that sin lurks in everything they do, and say, and think.

The scrupulous may, and ought to, act in defiance of their misgivings, i.e. against their so-called conscience. Nor can they, therefore, be impeached as acting in a state of practical doubt. The unreal phantasm that affrights their imagination, or the unsubstantial consideration that offers itself to their disturbed reason, has no validity against the conscience once formed upon the pronouncement of the confessor or in some other equally trustworthy fashion.

In the various perplexities as to the lawfulness of their actions they are not bound to employ any such scrutiny as would be incumbent upon persons in a normal condition. They are not bound to repeat anything of former confessions unless they are sure without protracted examination, that it is a mortal sin and has never been properly confessed.

This last statement here gave rise to a thought…

Lets say that a scrupulous person is working with a single confessor, which is the recommendation. That confessor tells them not to confess anything that they are not absolutely sure is a fresh mortal sin. The scrupulous person thinks they may have confessed it but is not sure. This, along with the 10 commandments for the scrupulous listed further up the thread, suggests they, out of obedience, should not mention it because they are not sure (note that for non-scrupulous it is the opposite). If this person had committed a fresh mortal sin, but did not mention it because he thought he may have already confessed it, I hardly think God would condemn this soul if he dies with that mortal sin…because he was following the confessor’s advice in trying to rectify a sad and difficult situation. It is not malicious omission of a sin from confession, but an honest attempt to break from scrupulosity.

I’ll continue in the next thread with excerpts on the remedy.