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peace2u2
Guest
We are all called to be priest, prophet, and king thru our Baptism.
Catechism of the Catholic Church:
783 Jesus Christ is the one whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them.208 (436, 873)
1241 The anointing with sacred chrism, perfumed oil consecrated by the bishop, signifies the gift of the Holy Spirit to the newly baptized, who has become a Christian, that is, one “anointed” by the Holy Spirit, incorporated into Christ who is anointed priest, prophet, and king.41 (1294, 1574, 783)
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Debora123
Guest
The OP openly admits to being scrupulous. Fpt is right in saying it isn’t something to be ignored.
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Debora123
Guest
Of course we are all called to greatness and sainthood, but for most of us sainthood is a journey. Most people don’t start dating saints when they are teenagers and don’t marry saints… most of us find and marry a good, selfless person and journey to sainthood with them* together.*
I think what fpt is trying to tell the OP is to not dismiss this boy (who she admits is a good guy) just because he isn’t Catholic… because none of us is perfect and none of us are saints when we are still young. It’s a journey. And it’s important to not write someone off because of a couple flaws that are still fixable (in this case, not being Catholic).
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fpt
Guest
In her first message, she tells us in the title and inside the message that** she is a scrupulous mother. What does it mean? That is the question!!! **
*
She is scrupulous for herself and for her children, or only for her children???* There are different situations:** herself, her husband, her children and the others. **Generally speaking, a scrupulous mother is probably also a scrupulous person for herself, for her husband, for her children and for the other.
These are some questions for understanding the deep religious and spiritual mentality of this mother (Is she a theoretical providentialist mother? Is she a jansenist mother? Is she a puritan mother? Is she a puritanist mother? Is she a victorian mother? Is she a victorianist mother? Is she a quietist mother? Is she a fideistic mother? Is she a catharist mother? Is she a integrist mother? Is she a moralistic mother?) in order to identify* the real reasons of her state of scrupulous mother. *
Why are the causes of this spiritual/religious/psychic/mental/social/cultural/philosophical/theological/moral disease? Yes, the scrupulous state is a great problematic?
In my humble opinion, very probably, her situation of scrupulous mother implies the scrupulous habits concerning garments and the corollaries (acception of the modesty, acception of immodesty, acception of decency, acception of indecency, acception of morality, acception of morality about the female garments), concerning the views on the sexed body and on the sexed corporeity, concerning the links between males and females, about the presumption of sins (the fact of seeing the sins everywhere)…etc.
Her mentality of scrupulous wife implies,** probably, a strict understanding of the catholic standards, in my humble opinion.**
Does her life of family appear like a pre-seminary, a pre-monastery or a pre-convent?
Does her life of family appear like* a seminary, a monastery and a convent?*
Garments of girls? Garments of boys? Leisure of girls? Leisures of boys? Sports of girls? Sports of boys? The discipline of hours, of schedules, the management of time? The moments of religious/spiritual activities?
The purpose of the life of family would be to be like a nun, a monk, a friar, a sister or a priest in the exterior activities, in the garments, in the management of time, in the relation between the two genders? If yes, it is a problematic!!!
**
The state of lay person and the family life are not the same things than being into those institutions or being into those states of life**
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fpt
Guest
May be that I am very far away of the true (I can be wrong), but via my readings, via my debates, via my experiences (In France, i know, but my country is not touched by the protestantism and his friends like in the USA or like the English speaking countries), i am almost sure.
I strict mentality, a strict family life can be dangerous and are not balanced, in my humble opinion.
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fpt
Guest
Is she a “almost follower of Ronald Conte jr”, or a “almost quiverfull follower” , or an “almost hamish follower”, or a "almost mormon follower…etc concerning the modesty of garments and on the other topics???
May be that I am very far away of the true (I can be wrong), but via my readings, via my debates, via my experiences (In France, i know, but my country is not touched by the protestantism and his friends like in the USA or like the English speaking countries), i am almost sure.
I strict mentality, a strict family life can be dangerous and are not balanced, in my humble opinion.
In all honesty, I would like to know, what type of female garments she judges like immodest, in function of circumstances??? Pictures!!!
May be that I am very far away of the true (I can be wrong), but via my readings, via my debates, via my experiences (In France, i know, but my country is not touched by the protestantism and his friends like in the USA or like the English speaking countries), i am almost sure.
I strict mentality, a strict family life can be dangerous and are not balanced, in my humble opinion.
In all honesty, I would like to know, what type of female garments she judges like immodest, in function of circumstances??? Pictures!!!
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fpt
Guest
For information about this debate: good reading
Modesty: Who’s Responsible?
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=803787
**I like the religious psychoanalysis. ** It is very useful.
The natural moral law, the philosophy of the morality (the moral philosophy, the objective and realistic philosophy, the teleology, the epistemology, the metaphysics ), the theology of the morality (the moral theology), the psychology, the psychoanalysis are important for understanding the global logic of catholic teaching.
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Married39
Guest
I agree whole heartedly with Debora123. She makes the most sense out of anyone here.
Deal with it, kids want to fit in with others, regardless of religion.
Do you honestly expect your teenage daughter to wear baggy clothes, not wear makeup, not comb her hair?? Really!! If you were her age living in 2013, ask yourself what you would wear? ** Yoga pants**, yes you would! Thongs, yes you would, Sexy Push up bras, yes you would. Wearing these items doesn’t make you a harlet. I have a niece who dresses fashionable, doesn’t drink, smoke or do drugs. She has a 90% average as well. Are you going to judge her too!
Yes styles have changed but we have to deal with it. Forcing your values with an iron fist will push her away farther.
Let her live, let her re-discover her faith as she sees fit. If she misses mass once in a while, who cares. You not letting her go out and she has to sneak out will only lead to trouble.
Let her live a little. The world is crazy and more secular by the month but let’s all pray for our young people for their safety and may they make proper decisions.
Deal with it, kids want to fit in with others, regardless of religion.
Do you honestly expect your teenage daughter to wear baggy clothes, not wear makeup, not comb her hair?? Really!! If you were her age living in 2013, ask yourself what you would wear? ** Yoga pants**, yes you would! Thongs, yes you would, Sexy Push up bras, yes you would. Wearing these items doesn’t make you a harlet. I have a niece who dresses fashionable, doesn’t drink, smoke or do drugs. She has a 90% average as well. Are you going to judge her too!
Yes styles have changed but we have to deal with it. Forcing your values with an iron fist will push her away farther.
Let her live, let her re-discover her faith as she sees fit. If she misses mass once in a while, who cares. You not letting her go out and she has to sneak out will only lead to trouble.
Let her live a little. The world is crazy and more secular by the month but let’s all pray for our young people for their safety and may they make proper decisions.
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awacjen
Guest
There has been alot of well meaning conjecture in my regard, so I feel compelled to be a little more specific.
In my particular case, I am scrupulous spiritually and have a very good confessor helping me to overcome it. I still struggle, but with his help and lots of prayer I am improving.
With regard to my children and my scruples; I know that I am responsible to some degree for the sins they commit while still living in my home, if I allow it. I know that I will face a just judge when I die.
If my kids find a way to watch an R rated movie in my home(not hard to do with the internet) that is filled with sex and violence and I allow it, than I am culpable. If they tell me that they are going to see a rated PG/G movie and then sneak into an R rated movie than I am obviously unaware and not culpable. That being said, I don’t only worry about my kids wanting to fit into the culture around them because of my potential culpability, but rather, I worry because I fear they will make choices that will create lifelong problems. In addition to the potential loss of faith and eternal salvation.
I grew up in a family with a devout mother and apostate Catholic Father who mocked the faith(she was not devout until after their marriage). Most of my siblings married non Catholics or non-practicing Catholics(there are 12 of us). Most had children out of wedlock, most cohabitated, most do not regularly practice their faith and most of my nieces and nephews do not know or care about the Catholic faith.
I see how much some of my siblings who are trying to live correctly suffer. How they wish they had spouses who loved the faith. It is such a Cross for my mom who is so devout and wants so much for her kids and grandkids to love God and his Church.
Our home is far from Puritanical. We attend Mass on Sunday’s and Holy Days, say the Rosary every evening, homeschool, read spiritual books and try our best to live according to Catholic Principles. From the outside, we look pretty much like any other large family. Sometimes I wish we resembled more of a Little House on the Prairie family. They didn’t seem to fight and talk back nearly as much as my kids do(LOL).
I really do appreciate all the (name removed by moderator)ut I have received. It has helped alot. I think that living in this very unChristian society is very hard today and I hope and pray that God sends more graces to us families that are striving to pass on the Faith to our children and others. God Bless You All!
In my particular case, I am scrupulous spiritually and have a very good confessor helping me to overcome it. I still struggle, but with his help and lots of prayer I am improving.
With regard to my children and my scruples; I know that I am responsible to some degree for the sins they commit while still living in my home, if I allow it. I know that I will face a just judge when I die.
If my kids find a way to watch an R rated movie in my home(not hard to do with the internet) that is filled with sex and violence and I allow it, than I am culpable. If they tell me that they are going to see a rated PG/G movie and then sneak into an R rated movie than I am obviously unaware and not culpable. That being said, I don’t only worry about my kids wanting to fit into the culture around them because of my potential culpability, but rather, I worry because I fear they will make choices that will create lifelong problems. In addition to the potential loss of faith and eternal salvation.
I grew up in a family with a devout mother and apostate Catholic Father who mocked the faith(she was not devout until after their marriage). Most of my siblings married non Catholics or non-practicing Catholics(there are 12 of us). Most had children out of wedlock, most cohabitated, most do not regularly practice their faith and most of my nieces and nephews do not know or care about the Catholic faith.
I see how much some of my siblings who are trying to live correctly suffer. How they wish they had spouses who loved the faith. It is such a Cross for my mom who is so devout and wants so much for her kids and grandkids to love God and his Church.
Our home is far from Puritanical. We attend Mass on Sunday’s and Holy Days, say the Rosary every evening, homeschool, read spiritual books and try our best to live according to Catholic Principles. From the outside, we look pretty much like any other large family. Sometimes I wish we resembled more of a Little House on the Prairie family. They didn’t seem to fight and talk back nearly as much as my kids do(LOL).
I really do appreciate all the (name removed by moderator)ut I have received. It has helped alot. I think that living in this very unChristian society is very hard today and I hope and pray that God sends more graces to us families that are striving to pass on the Faith to our children and others. God Bless You All!
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Debora123
Guest
I understand you said you’ve been seeking spiritual guidance for your scrupulosity with a good priest, but just to clarify, watching an R rated film (with sex and violence) is not inherently sinful.
Not saying you should allow your kids to watch them in your home, or that they should disobey you and watch elsewhere. Obviously lying and disobeying a parent is immoral so they would be sinning in that regard. But watching an R rated movie wouldn’t necessarily be a sinful action in and of itself.
Good luck and God bless!
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fpt
Guest
You have to be aware that the homeschooling* can have some disadvantages, under some particular conditions. Here her case, she is homeschooled since the beginning (the day of her conception until her 17 year old). *
The spiritual education, the religious education, the moral education were done by the parents (dad and mom),* that is totally normal. The parents are the first educators. They can be and should be helped by the catholic priests, by catholic deacons and by catholic ethicists.*
The intellectual education, the academical education, the academical teaching (reading, writing, calculating, maths, native language, second language or a third language, native culture, history, geography, morality, ethics, philosophy, natural sciences, physics, biology, politics, law, the computing…etc) from the birth to A level (or the equivalent, the End of Grammar school, the end of high school) were done by the parents. They can be and should be helped by the catholic priests, by catholic deacons, by catholic ethicists, by catholic doctors, by catholic nurses, by catholic midwifes, by catholic psychologists, by catholic teachers, by catholic friends…etc.
By nature and per se, *all this is morally neutral, but the homeschooling for academical education is not the standard in the Western countries. By itself, in itself, of itself, from itself, for itself the homeschooling is not problematic. *
The question is linked to the life of family: the schoolboy/schoolgirl who is homeschooled should have social activities like sports, like leisures, like holidays, outside of the house, outside of family, outside the clan. I mean to have links with the communauty of the real world, friends from the catholic schools, catholic friends or not catholic from the public schools (the good guys, the good boys and good girls), the catholic girl-scouts, the catholic boys-scouts…etc.
The parents have to be moderated and balanced in the education, in the list of bans. The reasons have to be explained by the parents when the children are capable to understand. The logic, the intelligence, the Reason, the Faith, the communication, the talk, the objective and realistic intellectual approach are the keys.
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awacjen
Guest
My Little House on the Prairie comment was meant as sarcasm, but yes,
I do wish my kids and kids in general, were more decent, less narcisictic and more respectful
Of their parents.
Maybe some disagree, but the times we live in are NOT moral and
I don’t want my kids to think they are. The world is full of sin and it seems
that nothing is sacred anymore.
Trying to be a beacon of light in a world of darkness, seems to be like
Something we as Catholics are called by Christ to do. Christ called us to
strive for perfection(while at the same time knowing we could not achieve it),
But the key word is TRY.
I agree that we may have to make some compromises with regards to what
our children wear or do, but as a Catholic parent, it is my obligation to
Have standards that I won’t compromise on.
Seeing my daughter with immodest pictures posted on FB that look seductive
is not something I condone or want her posting yet almost all her peers do it.
Where do you draw the line?
From some of the posts I’ve read, and maybe I’m interpreting incorrectly,
some seem to chastise parents who set high standards and want their
children to not only respect themselves, but also set a good example for younger
siblings and not cause others to sin. The way you dress often reflects ones
interior beliefs. Not always but often. Modesty and chastity go hand in hand.
I remember hearing what the BVM said at Fatima(approved apparition)about fashion,
“There would be fashions introduced that would offend my son greatly”
I don’t want to offend my Savior, nor do I want my children to, if I can
Avoid it.
I know that faith is a gift. You can try and give it to your kids, but if they
don’t want it, they don’t have to accept it.
I pray daily that my kids will one day treasure the gift of their Holy Catholic
Faith.
I do wish my kids and kids in general, were more decent, less narcisictic and more respectful
Of their parents.
Maybe some disagree, but the times we live in are NOT moral and
I don’t want my kids to think they are. The world is full of sin and it seems
that nothing is sacred anymore.
Trying to be a beacon of light in a world of darkness, seems to be like
Something we as Catholics are called by Christ to do. Christ called us to
strive for perfection(while at the same time knowing we could not achieve it),
But the key word is TRY.
I agree that we may have to make some compromises with regards to what
our children wear or do, but as a Catholic parent, it is my obligation to
Have standards that I won’t compromise on.
Seeing my daughter with immodest pictures posted on FB that look seductive
is not something I condone or want her posting yet almost all her peers do it.
Where do you draw the line?
From some of the posts I’ve read, and maybe I’m interpreting incorrectly,
some seem to chastise parents who set high standards and want their
children to not only respect themselves, but also set a good example for younger
siblings and not cause others to sin. The way you dress often reflects ones
interior beliefs. Not always but often. Modesty and chastity go hand in hand.
I remember hearing what the BVM said at Fatima(approved apparition)about fashion,
“There would be fashions introduced that would offend my son greatly”
I don’t want to offend my Savior, nor do I want my children to, if I can
Avoid it.
I know that faith is a gift. You can try and give it to your kids, but if they
don’t want it, they don’t have to accept it.
I pray daily that my kids will one day treasure the gift of their Holy Catholic
Faith.
D
Debora123
Guest
Well I hope you’re not including me in that group.
I don’t think anyone here is promoting immodest clothing, I just think some of us have different standards on what is considered immodest. In describing your daughter dressed “immodestly,” you mentioned tight jeans and tight shirts. I guess I’m having a hard time seeing what you’re seeing because I hardly consider an outfit like this:
http://www.styletalks.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/coral-skinny-jeans.jpg
…provocative or immodest.
I think that might be why you’re getting some of the responses suggesting that perhaps you’re being a little too strict or unreasonable. Young women just don’t wear baggy jeans now a days, unless they wanna stand out as looking a little strange. And if anyone is going to judge someone’s character based on what they look like or what they are wearing, I’d say that person is probably the one who needs to examine her/his own heart and why she/he feels the need to judge based on exterior. :sad_yes:
*Not that it matters, but as a side note, the word “fashions” translated from its original language used by the Virgin Mary doesn’t necessarily mean clothes. It more generally means customs or cultural norms and behavioral trends (gay marriage, abortion, casual sex, etc etc all come to mind). I just know some people take that phrase to heart and conclude that it means any clothing that is on style or fashionable is immodest.
Prayers to you and your family.
F
fpt
Guest
In the past times,** there were many ideologies, many heresies, many wrong practices, many wrong doctrines, many wrong mentalities, like today. The past time was not more beautiful, wonderful, marvellous, morally speaking, than now. (Read the history, in the details with all subtelties).**
In the USA, the puritanism. In the U-K, the victorianism. In France, the Jansenism, and the huge reaction to the French revolution (a French puritanism against the Queen Marie-Antoinette, see the trial of queen and the accusations about the incest, about the breastfeeding, and afther the accusations about her garments of queen coming from some christian groups), the strong reaction of some catholic groups during the Industrial revolution in XIX century, and today the neo-victorianism about the corporeity coming from some traditional catholics (FSSPX, sedevantists…etc), or in the USA, the theology of Ronald Conte Jr on the conjugal morality of foreplay of the marital act, on the garments of women…etc.
In the English speaking countries, because of the protestantism with all his under-branches (see the history of christian heresies), the moral debates about the body, the corporeity, the marriage, the nature of females, the nature of males with their own corollaries are more difficult than between the latin countries.
See the number of christian sects in the English speaking world;
See the number of sedevacantist movements;
See the number of “catholic traditional movements” that are very odd;
See the fundamentalism of members of SSPX: the difference between Europe and the USA or Australia inside their own seminaries;
The English speaking countries are deeply touched by many foolish approaches because the culture is linked with protestant manners of thinking, of living, of interpreting, of believing. In Europe, there are wrong intellectual habits, of course, but the protestantism or the neo-protestantismes are less present, are less powerful, at least in France or in the South of Europe.
May be, that my view is so French and that I have many prejudices about the English view about the morality. Sorry, if I am too direct and provocative.
The catholic laypersons, and even some catholic priests can have simplest reasonings. Be careful, be very prudent: “The cowl does not make the monk.”
M
maximus
Guest
If the Lady in the picture was wearing that outfit that at church I would not even register a question. At mass I have witnessed hot pants, a chearleader wearing thongs, a pair of ladies butts from low cut pants and no undies, and I will leave it there.We
…provocative or immodest.
B
Bruised_Reed
Guest
I think it matters quite a bit. Cothing styles are the only thing I’ve ever heard or read as examples.(…)
*Not that it matters, but as a side note, the word “fashions” translated from its original language used by the Virgin Mary doesn’t necessarily mean clothes. It more generally means customs or cultural norms and behavioral trends (gay marriage, abortion, casual sex, etc etc all come to mind). I just know some people take that phrase to heart and conclude that it means any clothing that is on style or fashionable is immodest.
Prayers to you and your family.
And it’s always “other people’s fashions.” One’s own are always A-Okay.
Amiright? (I can’t pull that, off can I?)
D
Debora123
Guest
I’m not sure what to say. I guess I don’t pay that much close attention to people in mass to people’s rear ends to notice what type of underwear they are wearing or if they are wearing any underwear at all.
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Debora123
Guest
Yes, people use that quote from the BVM to make a case about their own personal standard of modesty.I think it matters quite a bit. clothing styles are the only thing I’ve ever heard or read as examples.
And it’s always “other people’s fashions.” One’s own are always A-Okay.
Amiright? (I can’t pull that, off can I?)
It is true, however, that “fashions” in this case doesn’t necessarily mean clothing. It can mean cultural norms or behavioral trends.
Personally, I think there are some terrible terrible heinous things going on in our society for the BVM to have been referring to clothing. But since none of this is Church doctrine, we are all free to agree to disagree.
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