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Bruised_Reed
Guest
I was agreeing with you. I’ve always thought “fashions” seemed narrow, even nitpicky and, lacking in wisdom, did not sound like Our Lady.
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Debora123
Guest
My thoughts exactly.
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fpt
Guest
Do you regret the victorian society, in the U-K? Do you regret puritan society, in the USA? Do you regret the Catharist communauties, in South of France?
Do you regret the past times where, socialy speaking and morally speaking, the wife was not considered as a love, a lover, a mistress, a alter ego, an opposite number of opposite gender? The machism, the misogyny…etc.
Do you regret the past times where, the girls, the female teenagers, the wifes, the widow, the old women were under pressure of clan about the choice of husband, of wearing such garments, of getting a higher education, of wanting to have professional activity?
Each period has wrong things and good things, as catholic we need to find the just balance and the moderation. The nostalgia of past times about the morality is very simplistic.
Some questions for identifying your type of catholic mentality: I am direct and may be provocative!!!
Do you want to ban the female trousers, in using your own interpretation of the catholic doctrine? Do you think that the trousers are morally wrong to wear for a woman, generaly speaking and even in the church?
Do you think that the veil has to be worn by a woman in the church? Do you want to force the wearing of veil at church? Is it a moral obligation of wearing the veil?
Do you think that the bikini on the beach in immodest, per se? Is it deeply sinful? In general, do you refuse to go to the beach because of the general immodesty?
Do you refuse of wearing the skirts on the top of knees, morally speaking? Is it a sin???
I need pictures for understanding your moral view about garments.
I would like to know your moral understanding of catholic doctrine concerning the marital act with all the corollaries. I ask, because the hard core of this debate is on the body, on the corporeity, on the nudity, and thus on the sensuality and on the sexuality. The links are and stay. All is linked
What is the marriage? What are the ends of marriage? what is the hierarchy of the ends of marriage? The moral issuesof NFP (the providentialism about the procreation)!!! ALL IS LINKED
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Kamaduck
Guest
Teenger here, age 17. I wasn’t raised in a strict home, but I’m best friends with a girl who was. She sounds a lot like your daughter in some ways, OP.
In other words, teens going their own way and being disrespectful of adults is not a new occurance. I’m pretty sure it’s just how teenagers are.
Meanwhile, I never went through a period of significant rebellion (or at least, I haven’t yet). I never felt the need. My parents were always ready to give advice, but they made lots of compromises and offered lots of choices and allowed me to express myself in pretty much any way I wanted, as long as it wasn’t dangerous. And when I offered my side of the story, they listened.
Basically, you can’t control a teen’s behavior 100%. If you try to, they will usually rebel completely. I think it’s best if the teen is given increasing control over what she can and cannot control. Dress is something that I would give a 17-year-old almost complete control over, even if I didn’t agree with what she chose to wear. You should still offer advice, of course, but I think it will do more harm than good if you over-control something that is not terribly important in the long run. It’s best to pick your battles carefully at this stage.
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.” – Socrates.
In other words, teens going their own way and being disrespectful of adults is not a new occurance. I’m pretty sure it’s just how teenagers are.
There comes a point in time when children are required to make their own decisions. My friend’s mother was very controlling about certain little things- her daughter always had to eat healthy food, always had to say “thank you” and “please” and respond to her mother in complete sentences without using certain words. She could be (and often was) sent to her room for rolling her eyes or sighing. At eight this was perhaps appropriate. At sixteen, whether it was or wasn’t, it was counter-productive. I especially remember the mother’s control of which words could be said and which tones could be used, because it made it so hard to communicate. They fought many battles- over modesty, and dating, and where the daughter could go. But all of the battles came back to how the mother would not listen to the daughter, and how the daughter would not listen to the mother. In the end, the daughter started acting out. She sneaked out of the house. She had a “secret” facebook account that didn’t use her real name, but which all her friends knew about. She had at least three boyfriends that her parents were completely unaware of. She decided that she could not trust her parents, because they gave her responsibilities but would only allow her to express herself in the manner of a child.
Meanwhile, I never went through a period of significant rebellion (or at least, I haven’t yet). I never felt the need. My parents were always ready to give advice, but they made lots of compromises and offered lots of choices and allowed me to express myself in pretty much any way I wanted, as long as it wasn’t dangerous. And when I offered my side of the story, they listened.
Basically, you can’t control a teen’s behavior 100%. If you try to, they will usually rebel completely. I think it’s best if the teen is given increasing control over what she can and cannot control. Dress is something that I would give a 17-year-old almost complete control over, even if I didn’t agree with what she chose to wear. You should still offer advice, of course, but I think it will do more harm than good if you over-control something that is not terribly important in the long run. It’s best to pick your battles carefully at this stage.
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peace2u2
Guest
If they are sitting in the pew in front of you, I’m sure you would notice. I once had my M-I-L tell me that she has a hard time focusing at Mass because she gets distracted when she starts to look around at all the different “hair styles”. Clearly someone who has no idea who is present at Mass or else she’d be paying attention to what is going on up at the altar.I’m not sure what to say. I guess I don’t pay that much close attention to people in mass to people’s rear ends to notice what type of underwear they are wearing or if they are wearing any underwear at all.
Once, I had a 1st grade student who became such a distraction during our big group discussion for ccd because her “butt” was hanging out of her low cut jeans (didn’t notice any underwear either - it was one of those “plumber” image moment all because her too tight and too short top wasn’t covering it, but (no pun intended!
) the point being, clothes can be a distraction if they are not covering the parts of the body that are meant to be covered in public.ps. the picture you posted isn’t immodest. But, the majority of teenage girls are hardly wearing that much clothes today!
D
Debora123
Guest
Teenger here, age 17. I wasn’t raised in a strict home, but I’m best friends with a girl who was. She sounds a lot like your daughter in some ways, OP.
“Our youth now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for their elders and love chatter in place of exercise; they no longer rise when elders enter the room; they contradict their parents, chatter before company; gobble up their food and tyrannize their teachers.” – Socrates.
In other words, teens going their own way and being disrespectful of adults is not a new occurance. I’m pretty sure it’s just how teenagers are.
There comes a point in time when children are required to make their own decisions. My friend’s mother was very controlling about certain little things- her daughter always had to eat healthy food, always had to say “thank you” and “please” and respond to her mother in complete sentences without using certain words. She could be (and often was) sent to her room for rolling her eyes or sighing. At eight this was perhaps appropriate. At sixteen, whether it was or wasn’t, it was counter-productive. I especially remember the mother’s control of which words could be said and which tones could be used, because it made it so hard to communicate. They fought many battles- over modesty, and dating, and where the daughter could go. But all of the battles came back to how the mother would not listen to the daughter, and how the daughter would not listen to the mother. In the end, the daughter started acting out. She sneaked out of the house. She had a “secret” facebook account that didn’t use her real name, but which all her friends knew about. She had at least three boyfriends that her parents were completely unaware of. She decided that she could not trust her parents, because they gave her responsibilities but would only allow her to express herself in the manner of a child.
Meanwhile, I never went through a period of significant rebellion (or at least, I haven’t yet). I never felt the need. My parents were always ready to give advice, but they made lots of compromises and offered lots of choices and allowed me to express myself in pretty much any way I wanted, as long as it wasn’t dangerous. And when I offered my side of the story, they listened.
Basically, you can’t control a teen’s behavior 100%. If you try to, they will usually rebel completely. I think it’s best if the teen is given increasing control over what she can and cannot control. Dress is something that I would give a 17-year-old almost complete control over, even if I didn’t agree with what she chose to wear. You should still offer advice, of course, but I think it will do more harm than good if you over-control something that is not terribly important in the long run. It’s best to pick your battles carefully at this stage.
P
peace2u2
Guest
Pretty good advice from a 17 year old! I just want to point out you are right on about picking your battles carefully and that you cannot control anyone’s behavior, especially a 17 year old! Some are just more obedient than others and some are just more naturally modest.
I love the show “What Not To Wear” because they do an amazing transformation and they showcase outfits that fit the wearers personality and body type and also show outfits that are appropriate to wear for “work” like in an office setting. I recently went on a job interview and dressed in “interview” attire, but was so shocked at the lack of style in this professional office setting. It looked like day camp!
Also the clothing designers are really to blame for a lot of the styles out there - its cheaper for them to make clothes with less material, take wedding dresses for example. Its cheaper for them to make a dress without sleeves or a pretty neckline and most women can’t even get away with wearing a strapless gown and look attractive with all that flab hanging out. I recently saw little girl dresses with the backs cut out!!! Really??? As parents, when we fall into temptation and buy these styles, were promoting part of the problem.
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Debora123
Guest
Honestly, I see people post about all these supposedly horrible things they see people wearing in mass and I wonder if I’ve just been lucky my whole life or if I simply don’t pay that much attention or don’t make it a point to remember these things. Something tells me it’s the latter…If they are sitting in the pew in front of you, I’m sure you would notice. I once had my M-I-L tell me that she has a hard time focusing at Mass because she gets distracted when she starts to look around at all the different “hair styles”. Clearly someone who has no idea who is present at Mass or else she’d be paying attention to what is going on up at the altar.
Once, I had a 1st grade student who became such a distraction during our big group discussion for ccd because her “butt” was hanging out of her low cut jeans (didn’t notice any underwear either - it was one of those “plumber” image moment all because her too tight and too short top wasn’t covering it, but (no pun intended!
Really? Jeans and a form fitting shirt is what I usually see young people in for the majority of the year. Sure, if it’s hotter out they wear a tank and shorts, but I see nothing wrong with that either. Either way, that is what the OP was describing as being “immodest and provocative” so that’s why I’m a little confused.
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fpt
Guest
My guessings:!!!Honestly, I see people post about all these supposedly horrible things they see people wearing in mass and I wonder if I’ve just been lucky my whole life or if I simply don’t pay that much attention or don’t make it a point to remember these things. Something tells me it’s the latter…
Really? Jeans and a form fitting shirt is what I usually see young people in for the majority of the year. Sure, if it’s hotter out they wear a tank and shorts, but I see nothing wrong with that either. Either way, that is what the OP was describing as being “immodest and provocative” so that’s why I’m a little confused.
liliesapparel.com/2010%20sized3.jpg I guess, for her, it is modest.
m.nordstrom.com/Product/Details/3564628?categoryid=60144430 I guess, for her, it is modest.
m.nordstrom.com/Product/Details/3569256?categoryid=60144430
I guess, for her, it is modest.
m.nordstrom.com/Product/Details/3498453?origin=browse I guess, for her it is immodest because too tight.
m.nordstrom.com/Product/Gallery/3488665?origin=product
I guess, for her, it is immodest because too much skin (shoulders, arms, the top of back…etc.
m.nordstrom.com/Product/Details/3422681?categoryid=8000017, I guess, for her, it is immodest because too short.
m.nordstrom.com/Product/Details/3522454?origin=browse
I guess, for her, it is immodest because too short and co.
m.nordstrom.com/Product/Details/3544232?origin=browse I guess, for her, it is immodest because too short.
…
ETC.
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fpt
Guest
Only for informing yourself in order to understand t*he deep reasons of debates about all topics in link with the corporeality.
*
Good reading, if you have time.
Tradition in Action
traditioninaction.org/
Dos & Don’ts in Photos
traditioninaction.org/Cultural/H000rpDos&dDonts.htm#dos
Manners, Customs, Clothing
traditioninaction.org/Cultural/C000rpMannersCustomsClothingIndex.htm#manners
**
I do not support this website**. They are weird christians, I say christian, not catholic.!!!
There are some good questions,* but the explanations and answers are very full of wrong acceptions concerning the real catholic doctrine. *
This type of website is very useful for knowing the deep intellectual approaches of those “special christians”. Only for information. The fact of having information on the others moral views is very helpful
*
Good reading, if you have time.
Tradition in Action
traditioninaction.org/
Dos & Don’ts in Photos
traditioninaction.org/Cultural/H000rpDos&dDonts.htm#dos
Manners, Customs, Clothing
traditioninaction.org/Cultural/C000rpMannersCustomsClothingIndex.htm#manners
**
I do not support this website**. They are weird christians, I say christian, not catholic.!!!
There are some good questions,* but the explanations and answers are very full of wrong acceptions concerning the real catholic doctrine. *
This type of website is very useful for knowing the deep intellectual approaches of those “special christians”. Only for information. The fact of having information on the others moral views is very helpful
F
fpt
Guest
If you read my messages of this thread in the details, I explain only, the whole context of life of this mother and of this daughter. Thus,* I do not turn into a homeschooling’s thread. I am sorry, if you thought that, it was not my intention.*
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McMcMe
Guest
I think the speculation or “guessings” about what the OP meant with respect to modesty is mean-spirited. This woman came to the forum for our help, not to be joked about. If she is still reading, I hope you’ve found our (name removed by moderator)ut helpful and we’ll keep praying for you.
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Kamaduck
Guest
What a horrifying site. I don’t think it has anything at all to do with most of the OP’s concerns, though. She was talking about the teenage daughter sneaking out, dating people without her parents knowing, and now dating a non-Catholic who may or may not be the fine person we’ve all assumed he is. The site in question shames women simply for wearing pants. There is really no comparison, and the site, though genuinely awful, is not very relevant to the OP. It’s not going to help her (or us) in any way, and likely does not represent her beliefs at all.
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filiaecclesia
Guest
Hello:
I am new to this thread, so please excuse me if this was already mentioned, but is the OP’s 17 year old daughter her oldest child/oldest daughter?
Now that my oldest is 23, I can see many ways in which, by default, he was our “guinea pig” for parenting. He, like the young lady in question, was by nature a rather independent child and sometimes chaffed under our (well-meaning!) parenting. He went to college, graduated, and is on his own, making his own choices and finding his way, just like we all did.
My other two children benefited from the lessons learned in our family!
In any case, I would offer our OP the counsel that you should try and step back a little and realize the wonderful, faithful foundation you have already given your daughter. Don’t discount for one minute the past 17 (almost 18) years of devotion and love you and your husband have demonstrated to your family. That is a powerful witness and inoculation against our rubbish society!
You must also realize and prayerfully accept that you simply cannot control your daughter as you did when she was younger. You can, of course, set limits for her as mentioned by posters above, especially things that will focus on her integrity like going where she says she’s going, not sneaking around, etc. But, dear one, she is trying to maneuver the social waters all around her and part of that may mean taking a dunk once in a while. The truth is, you cannot prevent her from all the possible mistakes she may make.
As mothers, when we feel we are lacking the control we once had, and we’re also grieving our idealized children of the past, we are given the great gift of learning to trust, trust, trust in our God who loves our children more than we do. Try to focus on Him and on the present moment, on all the blessings He’s spread throughout your life. If our focus is on His love and grace, we will have less space to fill up with being frantic and stressed about our children.
You are not alone! You want to be the best mother for your girl, but you must realize that in many ways you already are. She is bucking against the bit, yes, but at least she knows it’s there. How many young people have no idea there are expectations of their behavior. . . or people in their lives who love them as much as you do your daughter?
Instead of thinking of all the fears you have for your daughter, all the “what ifs”, try making a mental list of at least ten things you like about her, ten things you’re grateful for - for example even things like her good health/her ability to sing/her smile/her wavy hair, etc. It doesn’t matter, just as long as they are things you are truly grateful for in her. Then offer your list to our Heavenly Father who gave her these and so much more!
Try to remember our Lord’s words: “Fear not, for I am with you always.” Work on trusting and believing Him!
Peace and all good for you and your family today.
I am new to this thread, so please excuse me if this was already mentioned, but is the OP’s 17 year old daughter her oldest child/oldest daughter?
Now that my oldest is 23, I can see many ways in which, by default, he was our “guinea pig” for parenting. He, like the young lady in question, was by nature a rather independent child and sometimes chaffed under our (well-meaning!) parenting. He went to college, graduated, and is on his own, making his own choices and finding his way, just like we all did.
My other two children benefited from the lessons learned in our family!
In any case, I would offer our OP the counsel that you should try and step back a little and realize the wonderful, faithful foundation you have already given your daughter. Don’t discount for one minute the past 17 (almost 18) years of devotion and love you and your husband have demonstrated to your family. That is a powerful witness and inoculation against our rubbish society!
You must also realize and prayerfully accept that you simply cannot control your daughter as you did when she was younger. You can, of course, set limits for her as mentioned by posters above, especially things that will focus on her integrity like going where she says she’s going, not sneaking around, etc. But, dear one, she is trying to maneuver the social waters all around her and part of that may mean taking a dunk once in a while. The truth is, you cannot prevent her from all the possible mistakes she may make.
As mothers, when we feel we are lacking the control we once had, and we’re also grieving our idealized children of the past, we are given the great gift of learning to trust, trust, trust in our God who loves our children more than we do. Try to focus on Him and on the present moment, on all the blessings He’s spread throughout your life. If our focus is on His love and grace, we will have less space to fill up with being frantic and stressed about our children.
You are not alone! You want to be the best mother for your girl, but you must realize that in many ways you already are. She is bucking against the bit, yes, but at least she knows it’s there. How many young people have no idea there are expectations of their behavior. . . or people in their lives who love them as much as you do your daughter?
Instead of thinking of all the fears you have for your daughter, all the “what ifs”, try making a mental list of at least ten things you like about her, ten things you’re grateful for - for example even things like her good health/her ability to sing/her smile/her wavy hair, etc. It doesn’t matter, just as long as they are things you are truly grateful for in her. Then offer your list to our Heavenly Father who gave her these and so much more!
Try to remember our Lord’s words: “Fear not, for I am with you always.” Work on trusting and believing Him!
Peace and all good for you and your family today.
D
Debora123
Guest
F
fpt
Guest
*About this website, i am on the same line than you. It is very odd, weird, foolish ,and this website has many wrong intellectual approaches about all topics. They are christians, yes, but what type??? They think to be catholics, but in my humble opinion, they are full of heresies and of ideologies, and it is very difficult of qualifying them like catholics. They are almost sedevacantists or sedevacantists.
It is sad of reading this type of texts. This is a horrifying site.* It is very sad and more.
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maximus
Guest
I did not set out to see this, this is just some people who have been in the pew in front of me through the years of attending mass. I guess I should have not mentioned this.I’m not sure what to say. I guess I don’t pay that much close attention to people in mass to people’s rear ends to notice what type of underwear they are wearing or if they are wearing any underwear at all.
D
Debora123
Guest
Whether they are in front of you are not, it seems to me as if you’d have to pay pretty close attention to be able to tell what type of underwear they are wearing or if they are even wearing any at all. I can’t say I’ve ever had the same experience in mass, and it’s either because I’ve been lucky, or because I don’t care and therefore don’t pay attention. I tend to think it’s the latter.I did not set out to see this, this is just some people who have been in the pew in front of me through the years of attending mass. I guess I should have not mentioned this.
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