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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
BlackKnight, in your opinion, exactly who was speaking to Moses from the burning bush?
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
SDA and JWs differ in their beliefs on this. Adventists do NOT believe that Jesus was ever a created being.I had no idea the SDA’s also believed this? I thought it was just the Jehovah’s Wintesses? Well, you learn something new everyday they say. Sheesh!
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BlackKnight
Guest
Yep, they sure do and spend a lot of effort justifying it. The problem is (as with most teachings like this) that as soon as you look into the context of the writings that they cite, you discover that the writers never believed what they do. This teaching attacks the diety of Christ.I had no idea the SDA’s also believed this? I thought it was just the Jehovah’s Wintesses? Well, you learn something new everyday they say. Sheesh!
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
And I tell you, as an Adventist, that is NOT the case. SDA believe that Jesus has always been God, and always has existed, just like you do.
So exactly who spoke to Moses from the burning bush? Please answer the question.
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RyanL
Guest
I don’t quite follow…if the SDA’s don’t think that Christ was created, how do they get around his being God? It seems like the JW position is at least thought out…how else do you get around verses like this:
Jude 1:9 Michael the Archangel — said (to Satan) ‘The Lord rebuke thee’
Was Christ schizophrenic?
Jude 1:9 Michael the Archangel — said (to Satan) ‘The Lord rebuke thee’
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Rom 10:9 If you confess 'Jesus is LORD'… you shall be saved.
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
Most Christians know only one definition for “angel”, that of the created heavenly being, but the word also has the meaning of messenger, ANY messenger. Was Jesus a messenger of the Gospel? Yes. That is the sense that Adventists mean when we say Jesus is the primary (arch) angel (messenger) of the Gospel. So Michael is another title for God the Son. 
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BlackKnight
Guest
Code:
Rom 10:9 If you confess 'Jesus is LORD'… you shall be saved.The ECF never believed that “the angel of the Lord” was Jesus, nor have any other Christians. The scripture plainly says that Michael and all the angels are created beings. To assert that he is Jesus is just a misinterpretation of the Word of God.
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
Cite the verses please.
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
From the Catholic Douay Rheims Bible:
The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple is clearly Jesus Christ. So Jesus is described in scripture as the angel or messenger of the covenant. That covenant likely being the one made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, that a redeemer would come to rescue a fallen humanity, or in addition, as we have previously noted, it was Jesus who appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush, and He also gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on tables of stone, which were placed in the container known as the ark of the covenant.
Therefore, in Malachi both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are referred to as angels, or messengers, in the broadest sense of the meaning of the word. An angel in scripture can simply be a messenger, without meaning the created heavenly winged-being that most associate with the term. This is the key point to be made, Jesus can be referred to as an angel (messenger) without detracting from His deity in any way at all.
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Christ shall come to his temple, and purify the priesthood. They that continue in their evil ways shall be punished: but true penitents shall receive a blessing.
Mal 3:1 Behold* I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.
* Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:17; and 7:27.The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple is clearly Jesus Christ. So Jesus is described in scripture as the angel or messenger of the covenant. That covenant likely being the one made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, that a redeemer would come to rescue a fallen humanity, or in addition, as we have previously noted, it was Jesus who appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush, and He also gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on tables of stone, which were placed in the container known as the ark of the covenant.
Therefore, in Malachi both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are referred to as angels, or messengers, in the broadest sense of the meaning of the word. An angel in scripture can simply be a messenger, without meaning the created heavenly winged-being that most associate with the term. This is the key point to be made, Jesus can be referred to as an angel (messenger) without detracting from His deity in any way at all.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Catholic teaching on angels from the CCC:
I. THE ANGELS
The existence of angels - a truth of faith
328 The existence of the spiritual, non-corporeal beings that Sacred Scripture usually calls “angels” is a truth of faith. The witness of Scripture is as clear as the unanimity of Tradition.
Who are they?
329 St. Augustine says: "‘Angel’ is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is ‘spirit’; if you seek the name of their office, it is ‘angel’: from what they are, ‘spirit’, from what they do, ‘angel.’"188 With their whole beings the angels are servants and messengers of God. Because they “always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven” they are the “mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word”.189
330 As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.190
Christ “with all his angels”
331 Christ is the center of the angelic world. They are his angels: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him. . "191 They belong to him because they were created through and for him: "for in him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities - all things were created through him and for him."192 They belong to him still more because he has made them messengers of his saving plan: "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?"193
332 Angels have been present since creation and throughout the history of salvation, announcing this salvation from afar or near and serving the accomplishment of the divine plan: they closed the earthly paradise; protected Lot; saved Hagar and her child; stayed Abraham’s hand; communicated the law by their ministry; led the People of God; announced births and callings; and assisted the prophets, just to cite a few examples.194 Finally, the angel Gabriel announced the birth of the Precursor and that of Jesus himself.195
333 From the Incarnation to the Ascension, the life of the Word incarnate is surrounded by the adoration and service of angels. When God "brings the firstborn into the world, he says: ‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’"196 Their song of praise at the birth of Christ has not ceased resounding in the Church’s praise: "Glory to God in the highest!"197 They protect Jesus in his infancy, serve him in the desert, strengthen him in his agony in the garden, when he could have been saved by them from the hands of his enemies as Israel had been.198 Again, it is the angels who “evangelize” by proclaiming the Good News of Christ’s Incarnation and Resurrection.199 They will be present at Christ’s return, which they will announce, to serve at his judgement.200
Footnotes:
188 St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 103,1,15: PL 37,1348.
189 Mt 18:10; Ps 103:20.
190 Cf. Pius XII, Humani generis: DS 3891; Lk 20:36; Dan 10:9-12.
191 Mt 25:31.
192 Col 1:16.
193 Heb 1:14.
194 Cf. Job 38:7 (where angels are called “sons of God”); Gen 3:24; 19; 21:17; 22:11; Acts 7:53; Ex 23:20-23; Judg 13; 6:11-24; Isa 6:6; 1 Kings 19:5.
195 Cf. Lk 1:11,26.
196 Heb 1:6.
197 Lk 2:14.
198 Cf. Mt 1:20; 2:13,19; 4:11; 26:53; Mk 1:13; Lk 22:43; 2 Macc 10:29-30; 11:8.
199 Cf. Lk 2:8-14; Mk 16:5-7.
200 Cf. Acts 1:10-11; Mt 13:41; 24:31; Lk 12:8-9.
But none of this confuses Jesus with Michael the Archangel.CCC references to angels
Pax vobiscum,
I. THE ANGELS
The existence of angels - a truth of faith
328 The existence of the spiritual, non-corporeal beings that Sacred Scripture usually calls “angels” is a truth of faith. The witness of Scripture is as clear as the unanimity of Tradition.
Who are they?
329 St. Augustine says: "‘Angel’ is the name of their office, not of their nature. If you seek the name of their nature, it is ‘spirit’; if you seek the name of their office, it is ‘angel’: from what they are, ‘spirit’, from what they do, ‘angel.’"188 With their whole beings the angels are servants and messengers of God. Because they “always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven” they are the “mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word”.189
330 As purely spiritual creatures angels have intelligence and will: they are personal and immortal creatures, surpassing in perfection all visible creatures, as the splendor of their glory bears witness.190
Christ “with all his angels”
331 Christ is the center of the angelic world. They are his angels: "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him. . "191 They belong to him because they were created through and for him: "for in him all things were created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities - all things were created through him and for him."192 They belong to him still more because he has made them messengers of his saving plan: "Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?"193
332 Angels have been present since creation and throughout the history of salvation, announcing this salvation from afar or near and serving the accomplishment of the divine plan: they closed the earthly paradise; protected Lot; saved Hagar and her child; stayed Abraham’s hand; communicated the law by their ministry; led the People of God; announced births and callings; and assisted the prophets, just to cite a few examples.194 Finally, the angel Gabriel announced the birth of the Precursor and that of Jesus himself.195
333 From the Incarnation to the Ascension, the life of the Word incarnate is surrounded by the adoration and service of angels. When God "brings the firstborn into the world, he says: ‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’"196 Their song of praise at the birth of Christ has not ceased resounding in the Church’s praise: "Glory to God in the highest!"197 They protect Jesus in his infancy, serve him in the desert, strengthen him in his agony in the garden, when he could have been saved by them from the hands of his enemies as Israel had been.198 Again, it is the angels who “evangelize” by proclaiming the Good News of Christ’s Incarnation and Resurrection.199 They will be present at Christ’s return, which they will announce, to serve at his judgement.200
Footnotes:
188 St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 103,1,15: PL 37,1348.
189 Mt 18:10; Ps 103:20.
190 Cf. Pius XII, Humani generis: DS 3891; Lk 20:36; Dan 10:9-12.
191 Mt 25:31.
192 Col 1:16.
193 Heb 1:14.
194 Cf. Job 38:7 (where angels are called “sons of God”); Gen 3:24; 19; 21:17; 22:11; Acts 7:53; Ex 23:20-23; Judg 13; 6:11-24; Isa 6:6; 1 Kings 19:5.
195 Cf. Lk 1:11,26.
196 Heb 1:6.
197 Lk 2:14.
198 Cf. Mt 1:20; 2:13,19; 4:11; 26:53; Mk 1:13; Lk 22:43; 2 Macc 10:29-30; 11:8.
199 Cf. Lk 2:8-14; Mk 16:5-7.
200 Cf. Acts 1:10-11; Mt 13:41; 24:31; Lk 12:8-9.
But none of this confuses Jesus with Michael the Archangel.CCC references to angels
Pax vobiscum,
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
Am I to conclude from this discussion that all Catholics believe that the biblical word for angel NEVER in scripture means a messenger, it ALWAYS means a created being?
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Church_Militant
Guest
From Mike Scheifler
It’s impossible and it does indeed impugn the diety of Christ.
There’s no reason the do the mental & theological backflips that it takes to try to accept this “truth”, when in fact it is not a truth at all.
Pax vobiscum
But that is not the way in which the SDA teaches this …Just how can Michael and Jesus be the same person?
It’s impossible and it does indeed impugn the diety of Christ.
There’s no reason the do the mental & theological backflips that it takes to try to accept this “truth”, when in fact it is not a truth at all.
Pax vobiscum
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
Church Militant:
Just who is the Adventist here? Would you care to document your charge about what we believe?
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Church_Militant
Guest
Post 1 shows what the SDA really teach about this. The first link is one of theirs…Michael the Archangel
Pax vobiscum,
Pax vobiscum,
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
I quote from it:
**But angels are created. How is Christ an angel? **
… The word for angel in Greek and Hebrew also means messenger. So Christ, the messenger of the covenant in Mal. 3, is also the angel of the covenant.
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE SAID PREVIOUSLY.
ISN’T THAT SO???
**But angels are created. How is Christ an angel? **
… The word for angel in Greek and Hebrew also means messenger. So Christ, the messenger of the covenant in Mal. 3, is also the angel of the covenant.
THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE SAID PREVIOUSLY.
ISN’T THAT SO???
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
Also from the same site:
Who is Michael?
Many people believe that Michael here is not Christ. Following is a summary of my explanation when we discussed Rev. 12:7: The argument against Michael being Christ is that, in Jude 9, Michael is called the archangel which means “chief angel” and Christ is not an angel. In one sense it is true that Christ is not an angel. He is certainly not a created angel.
Who is Michael?
Many people believe that Michael here is not Christ. Following is a summary of my explanation when we discussed Rev. 12:7: The argument against Michael being Christ is that, in Jude 9, Michael is called the archangel which means “chief angel” and Christ is not an angel. In one sense it is true that Christ is not an angel. He is certainly not a created angel.
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The_Augustinian
Guest
It doesn’t seem to me that the SDAs deny the divinty of Christ, although their identification of him and the Archangel Michael is certainly novel. Even if they were right about this identification, it does not mean that Christ is a created being; after all, the word “angel” refers to their function as messengers, not to their essence.
In discussing the beliefs of other Christian communities, we should try to give their beliefs the best possible interpretation. Let’s not jump to conclusions!
In discussing the beliefs of other Christian communities, we should try to give their beliefs the best possible interpretation. Let’s not jump to conclusions!
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
Did anyone actually lookup these verses and compare them with Malachi 3:1 in the Douay Rheims? – Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:17; and 7:27.
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RyanL
Guest
While it is certainly true that the word ‘angel’ means messenger (evidenced by the word ‘ev-angel-ize’), it is not fitting to apply this to God in the Flesh (Malachi 3:1 not withstanding). This is made explicitly clear in the Bible. The following is from a JW tract from the CA main site.
And yeah, I know JWs aren’t the same as SDA’s, but in refuting the one the other is also shown to be in error…
And yeah, I know JWs aren’t the same as SDA’s, but in refuting the one the other is also shown to be in error…
Being as how this novel concept is unknown before the JWs came on the scene, I don’t see how the SDA’s can claim that this is anything other than an invention of men…
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Mike_Scheifler
Guest
That tract says:
“The obvious problem is this: Archangels are creatures,”:
That disallows that the word angel can mean just messenger, without referring to winged heavenly creatures. Was John the Baptist an angel? Yes, Mal 3:1 in the Douay Rheims calls him one. And it also refers to Jesus as an angel too. Does that mean Jesus is created? NO. It means He was being called a messenger. Why is this so hard for some to accept?
“The obvious problem is this: Archangels are creatures,”:
That disallows that the word angel can mean just messenger, without referring to winged heavenly creatures. Was John the Baptist an angel? Yes, Mal 3:1 in the Douay Rheims calls him one. And it also refers to Jesus as an angel too. Does that mean Jesus is created? NO. It means He was being called a messenger. Why is this so hard for some to accept?
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