Seceeding from the Union

[exnihilo]

The tactics at that time involved standing in lines and shooting at each other. That does not sound like guerilla warfare to me.

Yes, that is what the British did and to some extent the Continental Army. But the rebels also used guerilla warfare. In fact the revolution is considered the beginning of modern guerilla warfare.

Who attacked whom at Fort Sumter?

A foreign army refused to vacate South Carolina and occupied a fort which blocked a major port. How would the US respond if modern day New York had foreign troops stationed outside of it? Heck if a nation half a world away merely disobeys the modern US we go and bomb it. If that is justified then surely removing a foreign army from your port city is more than justified.

This is a myth. I strongly suggest you read Lee Considered by Alan Nolan.

I don’t have time to read a book. Why do you say it is a myth? Give me something factual. I can suggest plenty of books myself.

No, it is in line with the traditional penalty for treason.

Yes, but they didn’t commit treason which is why they were never charged with it. It seems rather silly to conduct a war that killed half a million people over supposed treason and then not actually hold accountable those who organized the treason.

 

[JIB]

Since the US seceded from Britain anyone claiming secession is wrong must view the Amercian Revolution as immoral.

I believe in government ruled by the consent of the governed. If people don’t like their government they are within their rights to secede/rebel. They are under no obligation to work within the system.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

I read the instructions he gave to his army before his march to the sea. They actually sounds pretty dang reasonable.

Maryland can thank the Lord God that Lee disagreed with you.

It was rebellion in response to the Constitutional election of Abraham Lincoln.The Constitution does allow Habeas Corpus to be suspended in an emergency.

It was a legal secession, which even Lincoln acknowledged prior to the war.

When did Lincoln arrest legislators?

bit.ly/VRloaB

The tactics at that time involved standing in lines and shooting at each other. That does not sound like guerilla warfare to me.

Did Francis Marion not count? In which case neither did the relatively few instances of guerrilla war carried out by the confederacy; which mostly used, and pioneered, trench warfare and mobility tactics.

Who attacked whom at Fort Sumter?

Even if I conceded that the North had a right to Fort Sumter, which the Confederacy had exhausted every peaceable means to obtain, it still would not have justified a war of conquest to seize all of the seceded states, and even if I conceded that they were right in making that conquest, that still would not excuse the barbarism employed by the union to achieve that end.

This is a myth. I strongly suggest you read Lee Considered by Alan Nolan.

Please tell us more, because this position contradicts established history and primary sources.

No, it is in line with the traditional penalty for treason.

Which they didn’t commit.

The Constitution itself provides for suspension of Habeas Corpus in conditions of “rebellion or invasion”. So this was not illegal.

The Supreme court said otherwise (Which is why the Chief Justice was almost arrested.) Their was no Rebellion, and the first to invade was the north. Even if we concede that the North had rightful claim to Fort Sumter, which they didn’t, it was an attack on an American fort on Confederate land not an invasion.

Under Lincoln’s belief that holding the nation together was necessary to its survival, the suppression of HC made sense. “Are all the laws but one to go unexecuted, and the government itself to go to pieces, lest that one be violated?”

ICXC NIKA

So the ends Justify the means? And just why was the preservation of the union against the wishes of it’s former members so important anyway?

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Since the US seceded from Britain anyone claiming secession is wrong must view the Amercian Revolution as immoral.

I believe in government ruled by the consent of the governed. If people don’t like their government they are within their rights to secede/rebel. They are under no obligation to work within the system.

Secede yes, rebel no. Secession is done lawfully and requires no grave injustice to be done to those seceding to be moral. Rebellion is an inherently martial action which requires conformity to the just war doctrine, and should be done only with greatest prudence and reservation.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

You realize Davis suspended habeas corpus too, right? The only reason he didn’t use it as much as Lincoln was because he didn’t have the border states to contend with.

The North was not made up of white knights, but neither was the South. Playing the blame game is fruitless.

 

[Ana_v]

News alert comment :

People are petitioning for the secession of Louisiana (petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-louisiana-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/1wrvtngl)

I found out today, but the petition began on November 7, 2012.

 

[GEddie]

News alert comment :

People are petitioning for the secession of Louisiana (petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-louisiana-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/1wrvtngl)

I found out today, but the petition began on November 7, 2012.

I saw that the day it came out.

Stuff on WND seems to be worth the paper it’s printed on.

ICXC NIKA

 

[Marc_Anthony]

News alert comment :

People are petitioning for the secession of Louisiana (petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-louisiana-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/1wrvtngl)

I found out today, but the petition began on November 7, 2012.

Good luck to them. Man, that’s unbelievably stupid.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

You realize Davis suspended habeas corpus too, right? The only reason he didn’t use it as much as Lincoln was because he didn’t have the border states to contend with.

The North was not made up of white knights, but neither was the South. Playing the blame game is fruitless.

As we have discussed it is legitimate to do so when there is a rebellion or invasion, and, unlike Lincoln, Davis had to deal with both. In either case that is a much lesser concern than using such a suspension to arrest legislators.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

News alert comment :

People are petitioning for the secession of Louisiana (petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/peacefully-grant-state-louisiana-withdraw-united-states-america-and-create-its-own-new-government/1wrvtngl)

I found out today, but the petition began on November 7, 2012.

Anyone can put anything on that petition site. I’ll be more enthusiastic when I see this proposed in our legislature. If this were to happen it would be good for everyone, because it would be instant north american energy independence. We sit on a lot of oil, of which we are only allowed to exploit a very little. On the other hand, I seriously doubt that this will be happening soon.

 

[AlexanderWSmith]

…What is needed today is the same thing that was needed then: tolerance of national diversity, or to use the word of Pope Benedict, subsidiarity

The problem is exactly your thinking above. The cultural melting pot idea is FALSE.

If the United (at gun point) States was going to have a cultural melting pot then in the last 150 years it would have happened. it hasn’t. There’s always a strong dissent from new england and California’s desires when compared with the South and the Mid-West.

THe country simply can’t survive with giant pendulum shifts and frankly Lincoln himself advocated replacing government. Granted, he ate those words when he conquered the South as well.

I say let New England have their democratic government. Let the South and Mid-West peacefully divorce and establish a government that suits us. A government where all schools are private (Hitler knew that he who controls the schools controls the future). Reduce the taxes so that people can afford to pay for schooling. I remember being indoctrinated with liberal “its all good” mentality in high school in the late 1980s. It made me a liberal for years. Right down to assisting with an abortion once. (Yes, I have repented.)

Let the South and Mid-West form a Confederacy of states who agree to support each other militarily but who don’t allow the GOVERNMENT to intrude with the Church. Right now there are churches in Colorado who are being fined for not renting their services out to gay couples who wish to be married.

“Oh, that can’t happen here. We have a democracy.” Yea? It was a democratic vote that sent Christ to the cross too.

I’m fed up with the tyrrany of the majority in the united states and its time for a split. We will never agree with the blue states on anything. Its extremely counter productive.

Deo vindice. Stay out of Gitmo. If you disagree and believe that the united states is worth God’s blessing then you need a new set of glasses.

 

[ThatOrthodoxGuy]

You do realize Sherman was fighting against men who were waging guerilla warfare? The only practical way to defeat them is to cut off their supplies.

Speaking of people who should have been hung by the neck until dead, I would say Jefferson Davis, and Robert E. Lee were very lucky.

Murder is still murder. Sherman march to the sea was uncalled for.

 

[Ana_v]

On the other hand, I seriously doubt that this will be happening soon.

Well I agree.

Any real (i.e. formal, persistent, and sufficiently supported) attempt at secession, would have to be undertaken by a viable state, that is, one that could realistically, and within proximate future, survive independently.

Otherwise, wishful thinking.

However, as Alexander pointed out, I thinking a split is warranted. Liberals would probably be indignant though, because it would jeopardize their scope of influence

 

[AlexanderWSmith]

It also needs to be bloodless. The feds have REALLY BIG GUNS and so it’ll take something like what happened in the USSR.

 

[GEddie]

The problem is exactly your thinking above. The cultural melting pot idea is FALSE.

If the United (at gun point) States was going to have a cultural melting pot then in the last 150 years it would have happened. it hasn’t. There’s always a strong dissent from new england and California’s desires when compared with the South and the Mid-West.

THe country simply can’t survive with giant pendulum shifts and frankly Lincoln himself advocated replacing government. Granted, he ate those words when he conquered the South as well.

I say let New England have their democratic government. Let the South and Mid-West peacefully divorce and establish a government that suits us. A government where all schools are private (Hitler knew that he who controls the schools controls the future). Reduce the taxes so that people can afford to pay for schooling. I remember being indoctrinated with liberal “its all good” mentality in high school in the late 1980s. It made me a liberal for years. Right down to assisting with an abortion once. (Yes, I have repented.)

Let the South and Mid-West form a Confederacy of states who agree to support each other militarily but who don’t allow the GOVERNMENT to intrude with the Church. Right now there are churches in Colorado who are being fined for not renting their services out to gay couples who wish to be married.

“Oh, that can’t happen here. We have a democracy.” Yea? It was a democratic vote that sent Christ to the cross too.

I’m fed up with the tyrrany of the majority in the united states and its time for a split. We will never agree with the blue states on anything. Its extremely counter productive.

Deo vindice. Stay out of Gitmo. If you disagree and believe that the united states is worth God’s blessing then you need a new set of glasses.

Nobody’s going to Gitmo unless they are helping to kill Americans in the name of Islam.

The world needs less localism, fewer flags and visas, not more.

Shalom, ICXC NIKA

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

Well I agree.

Any real (i.e. formal, persistent, and sufficiently supported) attempt at secession, would have to be undertaken by a viable state, that is, one that could realistically, and within proximate future, survive independently.

Otherwise, wishful thinking.

If crippling government restriction on industry were lifted we would flourish. All the better if we were assured of a peaceful separation so that we could share the fruits of this with our neighbors in trade.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

The world needs less localism, fewer flags and visas, not more.

This is in direct contradiction with the Catholic principle of Subsidiarity. We need less national usurpation of local rights and duties, not more.

 

[kozlosap]

The problem is exactly your thinking above. The cultural melting pot idea is FALSE.

If the United (at gun point) States was going to have a cultural melting pot then in the last 150 years it would have happened. it hasn’t. There’s always a strong dissent from new england and California’s desires when compared with the South and the Mid-West.

THe country simply can’t survive with giant pendulum shifts and frankly Lincoln himself advocated replacing government. Granted, he ate those words when he conquered the South as well.

I say let New England have their democratic government. Let the South and Mid-West peacefully divorce and establish a government that suits us. A government where all schools are private (Hitler knew that he who controls the schools controls the future). Reduce the taxes so that people can afford to pay for schooling. I remember being indoctrinated with liberal “its all good” mentality in high school in the late 1980s. It made me a liberal for years. Right down to assisting with an abortion once. (Yes, I have repented.)

Let the South and Mid-West form a Confederacy of states who agree to support each other militarily but who don’t allow the GOVERNMENT to intrude with the Church. Right now there are churches in Colorado who are being fined for not renting their services out to gay couples who wish to be married.

“Oh, that can’t happen here. We have a democracy.” Yea? It was a democratic vote that sent Christ to the cross too.

I’m fed up with the tyrrany of the majority in the united states and its time for a split. We will never agree with the blue states on anything. Its extremely counter productive.

Deo vindice. Stay out of Gitmo. If you disagree and believe that the united states is worth God’s blessing then you need a new set of glasses.

If this discussion is getting so nutty, ill add my nuts to the bowl:

Ok, the West Coast and North East will form our own country. We will have most of the water, NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle and LA along with Yosemite and Big Sur. we will have the Silicon Valley and Apple and will happily take gay people too. Between them, CA and NY will form the worlds 7th biggest economy. We will have Stanford, Harvard, Yale and Princeton AND Vegas! The other country can happily have all of the racists and gun toting bunch.

Do you see how stupid this all sounds? We are 1 big country made up of many different people with different points of view. The Civil War was the worst thing that happened to our nation. Brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor. As hard as it is for some people to swallow, we are not a Lily white nation. WE ARE A MELTING POT! The genius and magic of the USA is our acceptance of diversity.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

If this discussion is getting so nutty, ill add my nuts to the bowl:

Ok, the West Coast and North East will form our own country. We will have most of the water, NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle and LA along with Yosemite and Big Sur. we will have the Silicon Valley and Apple and will happily take gay people too. Between them, CA and NY will form the worlds 7th biggest economy. We will have Stanford, Harvard, Yale and Princeton AND Vegas! The other country can happily have all of the racists and gun toting bunch.

You should right the brochures for the secession movement. You will take all of that off our hands and all we’d have to do is work out a solution to irrigation? Sign me up.

Do you see how stupid this all sounds?

Don’t sell yourself short; I think you advocated it pretty well.

We are 1 big country made up of many different people with different points of view.

We are at present one country consisting of two fundamentally opposed philosophies and ways of life, and more compatible subsections within those two. We’ve wanted to go our separate ways for over a century.

The Civil War was the worst thing that happened to our nation. Brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor.

you can sure as heck say that again.

As hard as it is for some people to swallow, we are not a Lily white nation. WE ARE A MELTING POT! The genius and magic of the USA is our acceptance of diversity.

If you need to force people to swallow your point of view, then it isn’t really diversity but rather submission that you celebrate. In this very post you have characterized those who oppose your position as gun toting racists, yet you want us to believe that we are valued brothers in your society. Ask anyone,by the time a relationship is characterized by contempt it is already over, it’s only a matter of time till both parties find out.

 

[Inego_de_Loyola]

If this discussion is getting so nutty, ill add my nuts to the bowl:

Ok, the West Coast and North East will form our own country. We will have most of the water, NYC, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, Seattle and LA along with Yosemite and Big Sur. we will have the Silicon Valley and Apple and will happily take gay people too. Between them, CA and NY will form the worlds 7th biggest economy. We will have Stanford, Harvard, Yale and Princeton AND Vegas! The other country can happily have all of the racists and gun toting bunch.

You should right the brochures for the secession movement. You will take all of that off our hands and all we’d have to do is work out a solution to irrigation? Sign me up.

Do you see how stupid this all sounds?

Don’t sell yourself short; I think you advocated it pretty well.

We are 1 big country made up of many different people with different points of view.

We are at present one country consisting of two fundamentally opposed philosophies and ways of life, and more compatible subsections within those two. We’ve wanted to go our separate ways for over a century.

The Civil War was the worst thing that happened to our nation. Brother against brother and neighbor against neighbor.

you can sure as heck say that again.

As hard as it is for some people to swallow, we are not a Lily white nation. WE ARE A MELTING POT! The genius and magic of the USA is our acceptance of diversity.

If you need to force people to swallow your point of view, then it isn’t really diversity but rather submission that you celebrate. In this very post you have characterized those who oppose your position as gun toting racists, yet you want us to believe that we are valued brothers in your society. Ask anyone, by the time a relationship is characterized by contempt it is already over, it’s only a matter of time till both parties find out.