Seceeding from the Union

[TurboLover336]

For those of the opinion that secession would be immoral – apart from considering the Civil War, let’s also consider the birth of the United States.

Was it immoral for the colonies to become independent from Britain? And was the Revolutionary War immoral, i.e. was it an unwarranted and disproportional response to its causes?

It’s difficult for me to see how the causes of the Revolutionary War, are more severe than the crises that American is currently facing. If the former is justified (often taken morally for granted), then …

Secession, however unsavory, seems to present itself as the route with the highest potential for a peaceful outcome if an action is to be taken
The election outcome as I see it, isn’t so much about the government gone wonky as it is about the polarization within our society.
If you look up an election map, California went democrat … but when you zoom into the state of Cali, its geography is mostly republican with tight pockets of democrat vote looking much like a culture in a petri dish. These small pockets of San Francisco, LA and the like, are so radically opposed to the rest of the state that they override everyone else in the state.
if you took 20 people from a republican area, and 20 from LA and locked them in a well stocked compound for a few weeks, I don’t think you’ll see em singing Cumbaya when you got back to let em out. This toxic divide is the problem above all.
Our government and the election outcome are a result of this divide.
We’ve traded away wisdom and long term vision for the folly of whim … Colorado and Washington state have legalized dope to indicate as much.
This election lived on comparison between candidates and we were blinded by the comparative nature of measurement of these men. Had we truly measured them against a proper standard, we’d have determined neither to be worth a plug nickle.
yet we fought for them with the rage of a thousand honey badgers and the passion of the entire history of romance.

 

[Garyjohn2]

Who says the seceders have to secede by way of war?

It’s the only way. The states would never be let go without a fight. Can you foresee a scenario where this would be permitted by DC?

 

[GEddie]

Yes, if it would start a war. I would think the only moral way would be to do so bi-laterally, with agreement of the federal government, or possibly a decision by the courts to re-instate the 10th Amendment.

As the Tenth Amendment has never been formally repealed, this cannot happen.

ICXC NIKA

 

[BillP]

The practicality of it was settled, not the legality nor the morality, unless you subscribe to the old adage that might makes right.

Actually that is incorrect, in Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 SCOTUS ruled secession was legally impossible without the consent of Congress

 

[Myqyl]

I remember a saying from the 1960’s…

America ~ Love it or leave it

Can I suggest Mexico? Personally I’m staying put. Social Justice is on the rise.

 

[MarcoPolo]

It’s the only way. The states would never be let go without a fight. Can you foresee a scenario where this would be permitted by DC?

As Ana pointed out, presuming there is just cause for secession, if the other side aggresses militarily, then it’s not the seceders starting violence.

 

[tabycat]

Keep your CSA money, it maybe worth something yet.

 

[exnihilo]

Secession is certainly moral if you believe in the principle that the people have some say in their form of government. Of course this is one of the principles that men often assert for others but refuse to honor when it negatively impacts them e.g. the War Between the States.

The history of the world is one with shifting borders. Large empires are financially successful and efficient, for a time, but eventually collapse. Secession or lose of territorial integrity of some sort is inevitable. I think California and the Southwest are good candidates to go first, based on immigration. What was once part of Mexico may well someday realign itself.

 

[Rocco6196]

Do you understand what your saying? The anologies your making, let me spell it out for you, how many people do you see trying to get out of America ( none) and how many are trying to come here both legally and illegally ,
Before making such comparisons please think,
Don’t Trump the situation and call for a revolution.
Just to remind you , people die in civil wars and revolutions, is that what you believe in.

God bless you and the USA

 

[pnewton]

As the Tenth Amendment has never been formally repealed, this cannot happen.

ICXC NIKA

Actually that is incorrect, in Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 SCOTUS ruled secession was legally impossible without the consent of Congress

I hope that no one thinks Roe v. Wade or Dred Scot is a permanent ruling. The Constitution does not mention secession. Even the idea of perpetuity had to be taken from the defunct Articles of Confederation in order to justify this Reconstructionists ruling.

No, the Tenth Amendment has never been formally repealed, but it is ignored by the courts in favor of judicial activism:

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

The federal court system no longer has any check or balance. They can legislate withont limits. The Tenth Amendment was designed to be one limit to a federal power grab. Yet, as right does make law, if not right, this is the most ignored part of the Constitution.

 

[Rocco6196]

I don’t fear God, nor man , I believe our God is a loving
God and will welcome all to his kingdom through his son JC .

 

[Ana_v]

“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them,* a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes** which impel them to the separation.*”

Without question, we can draw up a list of the causes, for the situations in our country are that egregious.

The question becomes, is secession necessary? And I propose that we measure the word “necessary” the way the founders did. (They *could have *consented to the continuation of British rule. They could have stuck it out. But they did not. That tells us something about their interpretation of the word “necessary”.)

 

[pnewton]

The question becomes, is secession necessary? And I propose that we measure the word “necessary” the way the founders did. (They *could have *consented to the continuation of British rule. They could have stuck it out. But they did not. That tells us something about their interpretation of the word “necessary”.)

If we were to go by the Catholic just war doctrine, another needed element is that such a war have a reasonable chance of success. I do not see where any war of secession would meet this criteria. If there was enough support for secession to result in a successful war, then their would be enough support to secede through legislative and diplomatic means.

 

[TurboLover336]

If we were to go by the Catholic just war doctrine, another needed element is that such a war have a reasonable chance of success. I do not see where any war of secession would meet this criteria. If there was enough support for secession to result in a successful war, then their would be enough support to secede through legislative and diplomatic means.

if it comes to protracted conflict, makes no difference to me how it gets there. when it spills over into my part of the world. Im defending my home for as long as I can stand.
Hopefully, there will be less for the next to deal with and so on till someone gets to survive it.
Meanwhile at the root of all this is the ominous divide within our society driving the whole issue that no one seems to care about.
I’ll be loading up a good stock of ammo … no ones giving me much hope here

 

[Rocco6196]

Michael I truly have no idea where your coming up with this bizarre agenda, succession would weaken our nation substantially, allowing portions of the country to be governed by who knows who and to who bows what type of agenda.

As for as checks and balances, we still have a very conservative house , a liberal senate and President , you have Bohner on one side and Obama on the other the objective now is to cross party lines and bring the nation together to work for a common cause. Believe it our not Obama won more of the Catholic vote then Romney and again people preaching extremism , If you feel so strongly about succession have you ever considered leaving the USA, I don’t believe anyone is forcing you to stay here.

 

[pnewton]

Michael I truly have no idea where your coming up with this bizarre agenda, .

Secession. No “u”. I have no agenda. In fact, agenda posting is not allowed here. This is not my thread. I was answering the question as best I can. My opinion has nothing to do with the election. It is more of an historical reflection. What will the next drawing of national boundries look like in North America, whether it comes in the next generation, of a few down the line?

 

[Rocco6196]

See how easy it is to start people up! Let’s fire up the base let’s succeed, let’s start a revolution , it’s insane, I got to say I love it , go spend as much as you can on ammo. I’ll invest more in my finances and businesses, while you live your lives praying for a revolution and war , like I said it’s probably cheaper to leave the country.
or better yet save your money so you don’t have to depend on government aids, and sometimes facts are like political polls, you need to cut through the nonsense to see what’s obscuring the truth.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

My opinion is that sticking together and working together is the moral choice, rather than trying to fragment and tear apart our nation, leading only to war.

It’s not even worth discussing, to be honest. There’s no question that such a war would either be totally one-sided, with the original government crushing the new one, or else the new government would somehow (I have no clue how) get foreign allies, and then the war would be horrible for everybody involved and leave everybody devastated.

We need to come together, not break apart.

 

[pnewton]

See how easy it is to start people up! Let’s fire up the base let’s succeed, let’s start a revolution , it’s insane, I got to say I love it , go spend as much as you can on ammo. I’ll invest more in my finances and businesses, while you live your lives praying for a revolution and war , like I said it’s probably cheaper to leave the country.

Please do not question the sanity of others. I do believe that you are the only one posting with a strong emotional content. I prefer to stick to the issue. Your understanding of what I have said is very poor, especially if you think I am praying for revolution and war. That statement is just making up stuff about others.

I have never said, and never have, supported a sensless war for secession.

 

[GEddie]

Secession is certainly moral if you believe in the principle that the people have some say in their form of government. Of course this is one of the principles that men often assert for others but refuse to honor when it negatively impacts them e.g. the War Between the States.

The history of the world is one with shifting borders. Large empires are financially successful and efficient, for a time, but eventually collapse. Secession or lose of territorial integrity of some sort is inevitable. I think California and the Southwest are good candidates to go first, based on immigration. What was once part of Mexico may well someday realign itself.

It may be inevitable, but it will not happen peaceably. Look what happened to Roman Israel when it tried to de-Romanize.

Sure, the Romans did withdraw from Britain at a later time, but they did so near collapse. Whatever you may think of our present government, that is not true of the USA. Our military is still the world’s premier pants-kicker.

ICXC NIKA