Seceeding from the Union

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ana_v
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
rossum said:
No. You have some of the United States’ largest military bases. The US Government would be likely to move them out of any new independent state back into the smaller USA. Could your new state afford the taxes to keep an army that size equipped?
Click to expand...
They would certainly move equipment. But airfields, ports, and other structures aren’t going to move. The new state would not really need an army. The US doesn’t need the army it has now for purely defensive purposes.
rossum said:
Could the towns round those bases afford the loss of all those out-of-state dollars spent by the troops who won’t be there any more?
Click to expand...
There might well be some economic pain. Then again whenever we have large deployments, as we do now, these towns suffer a bit. Some of the businesses that suffer aren’t bad to lose. If you go to the military towns the are lots of bars, pawn shops, tattoo parlors and porn shops. These towns also have a lot of crime.
rossum said:
Could your new state afford the extremely expensive tanks, aircraft and other equipment a modern army needs?
Click to expand...
Of course they could. They could start by borrowing tanks from the local police who have for some strange reason started to buy such things. Part of the money we pay in federal taxes now goes to pay for what the US has. That money would just stay in the state. But again I don’t think we need so much of that. There is no real threat to US territory that requires those things.
 
rossum said:
No. You have some of the United States’ largest military bases. The US Government would be likely to move them out of any new independent state back into the smaller USA. Could your new state afford the taxes to keep an army that size equipped?

Could the towns round those bases afford the loss of all those out-of-state dollars spent by the troops who won’t be there any more?

Could your new state afford the extremely expensive tanks, aircraft and other equipment a modern army needs?

This is not a simple as you seem to think it is.

rossum
Click to expand...
The willingness to give up military power probably depends on why a state would secede. In the civil war, the C.S.A. was really not any freer than the North (even without the obvious injustice of slavery). They may well have enjoyed the idea of being a military power. I don’t know.

A more contemporary scenario would involve a state like New Hampshire–which is being morphed by libertarians of the Free State Project–which would have no use for any military beyond repelling armed invasion of its borders. They would have no interest running Iraq or Afghanistan or any of the hundreds of overseas US military bases. Such a non-interventionist stance would naturally remove N.H. from Al-Queda’s target list. I suspect the free-staters greatest invasion fear would be at the hands of the remaining United States of America whose contempt for freedom could override all else.
 
I live in the south and have for all but one year of my life. It is obvious why the South lost the civil war. As stated in the very southern film Gone With TheWind “all we have are slaves, and cotton”.

The south was a feudal society most of the money and all the power was concentrated in just a few hands, and there was no industry.

Things have not changed that much, there are still some very wealthy individauls while the majortity are working class. The elite are still Episcopal or Presbetyrian while the masses are fundamentalists, mainly Baptist.

The south has the lowest ammount spent for education and health care, while the rich send their kids to private segregation acadamies.

And that seems to be the direction the nation is headed in the next 4 or 5 years.

I have been watching a series on the History Channel called “The Men Who Made America” it takes us back to a time when the whole country was in the hands of a few “robber barons”. There were no “burdensome regulations” or unions.

Rotten meats were sold, and morphine and cocaine were sold legally over the counter.

I guess that was great for the robber barons, but not so good for poor and disabled people, like me and others.

But then we really don’t count after all.
 
andrewstx said:
I guess that was great for the robber barons, but not so good for poor and disabled people, like me and others.

But then we really don’t count after all.
Click to expand...
Remember Terri Schiavo? That’s what our “enlightened” society thinks about disabled people - they believe that they deserve the death penalty.

That’s not good for disabled people!
 
This country is so incredibly divided right now. There are those who put God first in their lives and there are those who live like there is no God, and don’t want Him anywhere in public. Just look at how America voted in the election. The midwest and south were pretty solid Republican. Americans are beginning to have no common ground on anything. I live in the fanatically liberal northeast. I am embarrassed about my state(Maine) and how it voted. My father, from Massachusetts, was so disgusted, that after 50 years of voting, he unregistered to vote! I told my wife that if Texas ever did secede, start packing your bags and get used to living in hot weather!
 
andrewstx said:
The south was a feudal society most of the money and all the power was concentrated in just a few hands, and there was no industry.
Click to expand...
Wealth is often concentrated. There were and are plenty of people who rose up from poverty. Regarding industry that was true. The cause was geographic. The south was the agricultural region (displaced later by the midwest). The north had rivers capable of providing the power that early industry required.
andrewstx said:
The south has the lowest ammount spent for education and health care, while the rich send their kids to private segregation acadamies.
Click to expand...
The war impoverished the south. The first state colleges were southern (UNC, UGA, UVA).
 
Scott_D said:
This country is so incredibly divided right now. There are those who put God first in their lives and there are those who live like there is no God, and don’t want Him anywhere in public. Just look at how America voted in the election. The midwest and south were pretty solid Republican. Americans are beginning to have no common ground on anything. I live in the fanatically liberal northeast. I am embarrassed about my state(Maine) and how it voted. My father, from Massachusetts, was so disgusted, that after 50 years of voting, he unregistered to vote! I told my wife that if Texas ever did secede, start packing your bags and get used to living in hot weather!
Click to expand...
If you move to a secceded Texas you better be rich, can afford to pay for your own health care, and get an good job in the “ahl biddness” (oil business) becuse no one else makes much money in Texas, and prepare to join the unifficial state religion of Texas, the Southern Baptist Church.
 
Marc_Anthony said:
If people can leave any lawfully elected government whenever they wish, then what authority does the government even have?
Click to expand...
Government should never have any authority beyond levying taxes and providing for the national defense. Giving the state more power and authority results in a loss of personal liberties.

By your reasoning, the British Empire was justified in trying to keep the American colonies from establishing their own independence.
 
pnewton said:
I didn’t like it then, and I do not like “love it or leave it” now, even if it comes with a friendly thumbs up. Such inane suggestions ignore the right of a people to their own homeland.

I think this whole issue is academic, but if it were not, I would not abandon my home (Texas) because of actions taken by people outside. Mostly, I would accept what burdens I am put under, because like is fundamentally unfair, because we really do have a tyranny of the majority now long predicted and because any such struggle is bound for failure at this time. Thus, any armed struggle would be immoral. Any legal struggle is futile. Long before enough support exists to allow for peaceful secession, support will exist to allow for increased state’s rights as a balance to the federal government. We are a long way from either and moving in the wrong direction.

This will not always be the case. The United States will eventually have to pay the Obama bill. This will result in a destabilization of the country and may finally allow for positive change (I hope).
Click to expand...
I didn’t like it then and I don’t like it now either. If someone truly feels that they no longer belong here, that’s their choice, but I’m not for telling people to get out if they don’t like it.

However, if you’re wanting to leave-which is what all this succession talk is about, then why get insulted if someone offers to help you pack?

I find it difficult to take any of this talk seriously.
 
andrewstx said:
If you move to a secceded Texas you better be rich, can afford to pay for your own health care, and get an good job in the “ahl biddness” (oil business) becuse no one else makes much money in Texas, and prepare to join the unifficial state religion of Texas, the Southern Baptist Church.
Click to expand...
Chicanization will change that equation in short order; in two election cycles the Catholic Church will be equally powerful.

That is, without secession. Latin Catholics may well eschew relocation to the T2R.

ICXC NIKA
 
Scott_D said:
This country is so incredibly divided right now. There are those who put God first in their lives and there are those who live like there is no God, and don’t want Him anywhere in public. Just look at how America voted in the election. The midwest and south were pretty solid Republican. Americans are beginning to have no common ground on anything. I live in the fanatically liberal northeast. I am embarrassed about my state(Maine) and how it voted. My father, from Massachusetts, was so disgusted, that after 50 years of voting, he unregistered to vote! I told my wife that if Texas ever did secede, start packing your bags and get used to living in hot weather!
Click to expand...
Millions of people are held accountable, and the individual politician gets a free pass. What would be easier, getting millions of people to overlook prudential judgment issues, or getting a pro life politician to overlook prudential judgement issues for the sake of the important issues?
 
seems this secession business is gaining some legs.
might be time to start discussing what it might mean to us and what to do if it happens, if for no other reason as to cover the contingency
 
GEddie said:
Chicanization will change that equation in short order; in two election cycles the Catholic Church will be equally powerful.

That is, without secession. Latin Catholics may well eschew relocation to the T2R.

ICXC NIKA
Click to expand...
I’m not so sure about that. Here in Andrews cnty there is one small parrish and 6 large latino Protestant churches.

A huge majority voted for Romney, like %85 percent. Maybe in south texas but here everyone has a herd mentality, and voting for the right and being Protestant makes people feel more “American”.
 
IronHammer said:
By your reasoning, the British Empire was justified in trying to keep the American colonies from establishing their own independence.
Click to expand...
Quite right too. Do you see us having all the problems you are having with your elections? And we waste a lot less money on them as well.

😃

rossum
 
TurboLover336 said:
seems this secession business is gaining some legs.
might be time to start discussing what it might mean to us and what to do if it happens, if for no other reason as to cover the contingency
Click to expand...
How hard is it, or would it be, for a single malcontent to start multiple petitions? Once multiple petitions were started, does it prevent someone from signing all petitions?

Did you know there is another petition requesting all that sign secession petitions be deported? There’s another petition, ‘Strip Citizenship from Everyone Who Signed a Petition to Secede and Exile Them.’

Remember Occupy Wall Street?’ I remember how unpatriotic people on these forums referred to that group. :rolleyes:

A petition, for anything, is easy to start, whether it has validity or not.
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
How hard is it, or would it be, for a single malcontent to start multiple petitions? Once multiple petitions were started, does it prevent someone from signing all petitions?

Did you know there is another petition requesting all that sign secession petitions be deported? There’s another petition, ‘Strip Citizenship from Everyone Who Signed a Petition to Secede and Exile Them.’

Remember Occupy Wall Street?’ I remember how unpatriotic people on these forums referred to that group. :rolleyes:

A petition, for anything, is easy to start, whether it has validity or not.
Click to expand...
I agree-the only thing that is interesting about this is that seemingly rational people are taking it seriously.
 
Seeker1961 said:
I find it difficult to take any of this talk seriously.
Click to expand...
At this time, I would agree. It does seem ridiculous. But remember, change is the very nature of our world. This country has no pass to last forever and we have committed serious errors. It is not unreasonable that these sins will require payment. What is not rational is to think that America somehow is immune from the lessons of history, or even current lessons like Greece is now learning.
 
andrewstx said:
If you move to a secceded Texas you better be rich, can afford to pay for your own health care, and get an good job in the “ahl biddness” (oil business) becuse no one else makes much money in Texas, and prepare to join the unifficial state religion of Texas, the Southern Baptist Church.
Click to expand...
That’s ridiculous. There are more Catholics in south Texas than there are Baptists, by far. That’s why we have a Cardinal now, and an Arch-Diocese. Plenty of people make money in other businesses, although yes, Texas is still the world capital of the oil business (Houston specifically).
 
If ¾ of the state legislatures petition for a constitutional convention, it must happen. At that convention several things could happen, a new constitution redefining federal and state sovereignties, dissolution of the existing country with each state an independent sovereignty. If than ¾ of the states ratify the new constitution it is a done deal, as far as any secessionist movement goes that is what must happen. Except Texas, which by treaty has an option out, I think. After that, the country or countries may reform along any agreeable associations they like to form.
My :twocents:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top