Second Coming Errors of Protestantism.

[shawn34_a]

love those Chick magazines dontcha! Time to get your tin foil hats brother cause we are in the land of weird. Besides how do we know what your are behind closed doors?

I don’t quite follow, but verify the information for yourself. I notice you didn’t refute it because it’s true.

newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm
cathnews.com/news/602/30.php
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Pope

You can find information all over the place though.

 

[Church_Militant]

I don’t quite follow, but verify the information for yourself. I notice you didn’t refute it because it’s true.

newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm

cathnews.com/news/602/30.php
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Pope

You can find information all over the place though.I’ve already answered this on your other thread and refuted it completely Shawn.

Frankly, I don’t believe you have been honest in your profile since you have posted anti-Catholic propaganda virtually for the whole year you have been here. If you’re a Catholic, then I’m the next Black Pope…and since that is not possible…guess what that makes you? I think this dude’s a ringer…pretending to be a Catholic in order to fly under the Mod radar while posting straight a-C propaganda.

The Black Pope is nothing more than an Jesuit humorous name for their organization’s head guy. From your own wiki reference.

Black Pope

“Black Pope” is a light-hearted name given to the Superior General, usually by the media (and never used by the Jesuits themselves). The name comes partly from the color of the plain black priest’s cassock worn by members of the society, including the superior general, and partly from a past concern (most prominent around the 16th and 17th centuries) amongst Protestant European countries concerning the relative power of the Jesuits within the Roman Catholic Church

All that other stuff has been refuted a gillion times by myself and others…

Oh… and you can find the truth here as well. You do know that false witness is a sin, don’t you?

 

[jmcrae]

I don’t quite follow, but verify the information for yourself. I notice you didn’t refute it because it’s true.

newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm
cathnews.com/news/602/30.php
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Pope

You can find information all over the place though.

There is nothing in your links to indicate that the Jesuits are “military.”

They were nick-named after a military order, that ceased to exist when the war ended. (A company of soldiers that went by the name “Society of Jesus” back in the Turkish wars. They weren’t priests, though. They were just regular army soldiers. When the war was over, the company disbanded. And then the Ignatian Order took on the name “Society of Jesus,” because of their spiritual warfare in pagan lands. But Jesuits have always been pacifists - they are not allowed and have never been allowed to carry weapons.)

 

[ryanoneil]

6th century BC Zec 1:1-7 - 7:14 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------v

v-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------21st century AD Zec 8:1 - 8:8

6th century BC Zec 8:9 - 8:19 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------v

v---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------21st century AD Zec 8:20 - 9:8

1st century AD Zec 9:9 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------v

v-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------21st century AD Zec 9:10 - 10:12

1st century AD Zec 11:1 - 11:17 -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------v

v------------------------------------------------------------------------------------21st century AD Zec 12:1 - 13:6

1st century AD Zec 13:7 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------v

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------21st century AD Zec 13:8 - 14:21

Rapturist do the same with the other books of the Old Testament, (Daniel in particular) All books that focus on the Jews. (Jews between the 6th century BC and 1st century AD)

Take Daniel for example. Daniel asks God for a time line of the events leading up to the Messiah’s coming Kingdom, and God reveals it to him. The length of that time line is approximately six hundred years. But to make their system work, rapturists divide that six hundred years into two parts and insert an additional two thousand years in between!

Why do this? I believe they are unwilling to entertain the notion that perhaps Christ founded the Kingdom of God during His first advent. They hold to the firm conviction that the Kingdom is still in the future, that it will center on ethnic Israel, and - most important- that it is entirely distinct from the Church Christ founded.

Why? Darby, like many other religious innovators, was trying to gather a group of followers. He couldn’t admit that the Kingdom of God was already present within the world, because it would not jolt people into abandoning their former places of worship to follow him. His entire ministry would have failed in it infancy.

Furthermore, it is presenty dangerous to Protestantism to admit that Christ set up a kingdom in His first advent. If the Kingdom has been established, the logical response is to look for it. The only credible claim to be the Kingdom of Christ on earth is the Catholic Church. So, by denying the present existence of God’s Kingdom, the rapturists build a firewall against Catholocism in it’s congregation’s soul.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[homewardbound]

What people fail to realize is that we all will go through the Great Tribulation. The rapture will occur at the second coming of Christ before the wrath of God is poured out (7 bowls). Christ will depose of governments and set up his 1000 reign. At that point Satan is loosed for one final time for a little while (Rev 20:1-30). Finally Satan will be defeated one last time and the new Jerusalem will be established.

Lev,

What people fail to accept is that the church referenced in Revelations as the harlot is the Roman Catholic Church.

1. Research the history of the Jesuits, military wing of the Catholic church. The title of the leader of the Jesuits is the Superior General (aka Black Pope). You’ll find that real interersting and undeniable. Also research the plans that the Vatican has for the Temple Mount. They want it and will take it after the temple is rebuilt. If you start researching and follow the money and power, the Jesuits are normally at the root of it. This will be the new world order prophesized.
2. What other christian religion(s) offers salvation to people without Jesus Christ except the Catholic Church. That very fact denies various scriptures throughout the NT. Jesus said that there is no other way to the father, but through the son. He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe in Him is already condemned. There are others too.
3. Also research, or if some Catholic could post, the Catholic Priests oath in a post. Interesting!

I used to believe all of this silliness as well. As a Protestant, it was beat into my head and I had no way of studying things for myself until later. How sad of you to attack your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I will pray for you!

 

[Zooey]

If you’re a Catholic, then I’m the next Black Pope…and since that is not possible…guess what that makes you? Now, Michael, you *know *that’s my job. :whacky: Everybody knows that the “Jesuit Black Pope” has to be ahttp://bestsmileys.com/movingeyes/1.gif Methodist woman with red hair. It’s all written in the http://bestsmileys.com/tongs/1.gifBook of St Wombat, chapter 397,252, verses 99million and three through 477, 644.

I think this dude’s a ringer…pretending to be a Catholic in order to fly under the Mod radar while posting straight a-C propaganda.

Yeah…pretty obvious, isn’t it?

 

[juliamajor]

I used to believe all of this silliness as well. As a Protestant, it was beat into my head and I had no way of studying things for myself until later. How sad of you to attack your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. I will pray for you!

Poor Johnny One Note- funny

 

[juliamajor]

What people fail to realize is that we all will go through the Great Tribulation. The rapture will occur at the second coming of Christ before the wrath of God is poured out (7 bowls). Christ will depose of governments and set up his 1000 reign. At that point Satan is loosed for one final time for a little while (Rev 20:1-30). Finally Satan will be defeated one last time and the new Jerusalem will be established.

Lev,

What people fail to accept is that the church referenced in Revelations as the harlot is the Roman Catholic Church.

1. Research the history of the Jesuits, military wing of the Catholic church. The title of the leader of the Jesuits is the Superior General (aka Black Pope). You’ll find that real interersting and undeniable. Also research the plans that the Vatican has for the Temple Mount. They want it and will take it after the temple is rebuilt. If you start researching and follow the money and power, the Jesuits are normally at the root of it. This will be the new world order prophesized.
2. What other christian religion(s) offers salvation to people without Jesus Christ except the Catholic Church. That very fact denies various scriptures throughout the NT. Jesus said that there is no other way to the father, but through the son. He who believes in Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe in Him is already condemned. There are others too.
3. Also research, or if some Catholic could post, the Catholic Priests oath in a post. Interesting!

Oh, Poor Johnny One Note- Funny

 

[Lev23]

The “black pope” has left the building, now on to our regularly scheduled program…
:juggle: :dancing: :clapping:

 

[Lev23]

Dear Lev23,
I need to apologize for the way I entered this thread. I understand why you would think I was trying to “take out the Jews.” Please believe me that is not my intention. I really do have the utmost respect for our Jewish brothers and sister. I started half-way through a thought that I should have prequalified. Instead, I came out swinging with a hot head. I should have taken a different approach. I’m sorry!

If we could start over (or resume), I’d like to discuss this topic and your posts methodically and charitably.

Peace,

Ryan

No need to apologize!!! I never thought that about you. Not once. When I mention “final solution”, I mean this is what the nations will all definately be looking for towards the end of this age. That is, getting rid of the “Jewish problem” once and for all. Islam is the leader echoeing this hatred today to the whole world. And what makes it worse are the teachings from some Christians that the Israelites in the land today are not the real Israel God was to bring out of all the nations. National leaders are then totally convinced these people in this land mean NOTHING to Gods plan in the end times. Then the mess begins…

 

[Mannyfit75]

The “black pope” has left the building, now on to our regularly scheduled program…
:juggle: :dancing: :clapping:

I wonder why conspirators even exist…

 

[Lev23]

It is important to understand that Zechariah is a clear and consisent prophecy of the first advent of Christ. Jesus quotes Zechariah 13:7 in Mark 14:27 to describe His experience in the Passion. “Jesus said to them, You will all fall away; for it is written, I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.” So Zechariah 13:7 was undeniably fulfilled in the first advent. Yet when I look at the quote above (Zec:8,9) time warps ahead 2,000 + years to describe future prophecy.

If one applies one verse to the second advent, the next verse to the first advent, and then the very next verse to the second advent again, the book is cut and pasted into total confusion. If this understanding is correct, Zechariah was one very confused prophet.

Please explain how this makes sense?

Peace,

Ryan

Great point you make! But, Zechariah 12, 13, and 14 are clearly about the second advent.

As you correctly said, Zechariah 13:7 is quoted by Jesus himself in Mark 14:27 and in Matthew 26:31.

I didn’t know what to call it, so I looked in the commentary of a Catholic bible, the New Jerusalem bible, and they call Zechariah 13:7-9 a “messianic poem”. Whatever anybody wants to name it, these verses most definately deals with the “remnant of Israel”, both at Jesus’ first advent and the second advent. Remember back in Zechariah 11:11, the “afflicted of the flock” was the remnant at the time of Jesus. This is the same remnant Jesus refers to in Zechariah 13:7.

This is where our Lord Jesus was so brillant and totally proves he is the Messiah, and no one else could ever fulfill the propechies like Jesus did.

Jesus doesn’t quote beyond-“Strike the shepard and the sheep will be scattered…”, because verse 8 and 9 describes the remnant of Israel at his second advent. Come on, the Lord found St.Peter fishing, and Jesus still reinstates him. St. Peter actually seemed hurt by the Lords simple repeated question-“Simon, son of John, do you truly love me?” In John 21:7 St.Peter said upon seeing Jesus on shore-“It is the Lord”. So this cannot be the remnant that is brought through fire and refined like silver and tested like gold, and THEN call on his name.

And this is not the first time in the Gospels our Lord Jesus of Nazerath quoted prophecy in scriptured fulfilled and stopped quoting it in the middle of a verse. There is no “cut and pasting” going on.

For instance, in Luke 4:16-21, concerning Jesus-
He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor."

Then he rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant and sat down. The eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fastened on him, and he began by saying to them, "Today this scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."

That scripture Jesus quoted was Isaiah 61:1-2. But he stopped in the middle of a verse! He quoted just what was fulfilled! Read what the rest of Isaiah 61:2 says and going into verse 3-
** …to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
(verse3)and provide for those who grieve in Zion—
to bestow on them a crown of beauty
instead of ashes,
the oil of gladness
instead of mourning,
and a garment of praise
instead of a spirit of despair.**

The rest of Isaiah 61:2 sounds alot like Zechariah 12, 13, and 14, when the Lord comes back to save all Israel(Romans11:26-27) and judge the nations(Joel3/Matt25:31-46/Zech14) for all it has done to Israel, doesn’t it? And why does St.Paul claim “All Israel will be saved” when “The deliverer will come from Zion”? Because they will be refined like silver and tried like gold, and call on his name(Zech13:9), Just like Jesus said they would have to do in Matthew 23:39.

So you see, Zechariah was no confused prophet, neither was Isaiah, and our Lord Jesus taught us so.

 

[ryanoneil]

Great point you make! But, Zechariah 12, 13, and 14 are clearly about the second advent.

I need to ask you to clarify something before I go much further, because I want to have a firm understanding of your position.

Do you believe that Chistians will be raptured up to heaven, paving the way for Jews and Christ to rule, on earth, for the millenial period?

If not, would you briefly explain your understand?

I’d like to base my responses according to your belief system.

Thank you,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Sorry I didn’t wait for you to respond Lev23, but I’m sitting around and felt I could respond. (regardless of your postion) I’m still interested in your answer to my last post

Great point you make! But, Zechariah 12, 13, and 14 are clearly about the second advent.

The rest of Isaiah 61:2 sounds alot like Zechariah 12, 13, and 14, when the Lord comes back to save all Israel(Romans11:26-27) and judge the nations(Joel3/Matt25:31-46/Zech14) for all it has done to Israel, doesn’t it? And why does St.Paul claim “All Israel will be saved” when “The deliverer will come from Zion”? Because they will be refined like silver and tried like gold, and call on his name(Zech13:9), Just like Jesus said they would have to do in Matthew 23:39.

I won’t deny the possibility that a mass conversion of the Jewish people at the end of time is possible. It certainly could happen, but this can’t be demonstrated from Scripture. It is more consistent with Scripture to believe that God is saving the Jews currently, who accept Jesus Christ, “in the same manner” as the Gentiles, that is, through the grace of the New Covenant.

Prophecy often times repeats itself in Scripture, but in order for it to repeat itself it must be fulfilled in the first place. Zechariah has been fulfilled. The second oracle of Zechariah concentrates on the New Covenant make with Jerusalem, otherwise known as the “strong covenant” of Daniel’s seventy weeks. Jesus’ first advent is a joke if one believes he didn’t give us a New Covenant.

"That day" is liberally sprinkled throughout the second oracle because the covenantal transition takes front stage in Zechariah. We see that “all the nations of the earth will come together against” Jerusalem (12:3) This certainly happened when Titus invaded. His army was make up of soldirs from each of the ten provinces of the empire (the known world) and even contained mercenaries from outside the empire.

The Jewish people believed to the bitter end that the Lord would deliver Jerusalem yet one more time. Zechariah also predicts this delusion. They wrongly believed that “the inhabitants of Jerusalem have strength through . . their God” (12:5) Zechariah predicts that they will believe ths even after the rest of Judah has been defeated. The strategy of Titus was to defeat Judah first, “while Jerusalem shall still be inhabited” (12:6) Then the Roman army turned it’s attention to Jerusalem.

Zechariah now turns his attention to the New Jerusalem, created when the staffs were broken. “The Lord will put a shield” around His People. After earthly Jerusalem’s defeat, God will not abandon His New Jerusalem. We see in 12:9 that God will take vengeance on all those who come against His people.

During “that day,” “the inhabitants of Jerusalem . . .when they look on Him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for Him” (12:10) This prophesy was fulfilled during the fall of Jerusalem to Rome. There is a long list of OT prophecies fulfilled about the pierced one. When the inhabitants of Jerusalem were defeated, they realized that it was the punishment of God upon them for their treatment of Jesus. They had not been the “wise” who understood and fled. They were of the wicked, and so they mourned (Dan 12)

I could continue with chapter 13 and 14 but will briefly address Romans 11:26 instead. Paul is quoting from Isaiah 59:20, which says nothing about a millennial reign of the Messiah at the end of time, and certainly nothing about a future national and spiritual restoration of Israel. Isaiah is writing about God’s anger against Israel for their sins, and how He is going to send the Deliverer to forgive their sins if they repent. Isaiah goes on to mention that the Deliverer will establish “my covenant with them” (v.21).

God establishes His New Covenant at the First Coming of Christ, not the Second Coming. As we see in Hebrews 9:27-28 "Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him."
When Christ comes the second and final time, He will not come to establish a covenant or forgive sin. He will come to judge sin according to the covenant He has already established at His First Coming.

Try re-reading some of the scripture you quoted above and try to figure out how it may have already been fulfilled. Then let me know if you came up with any ideas. I know I haven’t directly dealt with some of what you quoted, but I’ll be happy to.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[spauline]

Ryan,

I don’t know where you get your theology, but the Church definitely thinks there will be an en masse conversion of the Jews at the very end.

let me share how I think to understand this great mystery.

How this will occur is a mystery, but I think the answer may be very simple.

It is based on my premise that the THREE STAGE way of the saint is itself just a micro-cosmic example of the GENERAL spiritual process that any major People of God must traverse relative to a major Revelatory and Salvific Covenant.

IOW, the three darkness/light stages of the saint were the necessary path that the Jews walked through to prepare the way for Christ’s First Coming, and that the same stages are those the Church herself traverses toward the SECOND COMING of Christ, and that what will enable the Jews to finally convert is to see their very SPIRITUAL history (again, a macro form of the way of the individual Catholic Saint) FULFILLED by the Gentiles.

The parallels are striking and perfectly appropriate when we analyze the Jewish history and if we also take the mystics’ general scenario for Church history. They fulfill one another perfectly:

The **Purgative **Phase (Dark Night of Senses):

• Jews: Egyptian Enslavement
• Church: Pagan Rome

The Illuminative Phase and Dark Night of Soul:

• Jews: The Exodus, Prophets and OT Kingdom and the Pre-Exile Jewish unfaithfulness
• Church: Christianity’s triumph over Paganism, the NT Kingdom Catholic Christendom, and the modern loss of faith

The Unitive Phase (Vindication of Illumination):

• Jews: the Exile and Restoration and period of peace and rooting out of idolatry
• Church: the Minor Chastisement, Reunion of Christians and great restoration of Catholicism, fullness of Gentiles

Martyrdom and Heaven:

• Jews: OT Antichrist persecution (Antiochus, Maccabbees) and FIRST Coming of Christ
• Church: NT Antichrist persecution and SECOND Coming of Christ
  Hence, the mystery could simply be this: just as St. Thomas says, “Only when I have put my fingers in the nail marks and my hand into his side will I believe”, so then the Jews say, “Only when we have seen our entire spiritual journey fulfilled by the Gentiles in the New, shall we believe.”

Consider these parallels: Joseph and Mary assume that Jesus was with them, but he wasn’t. For THREE Days and THREE nights they search for him, and only in the third do they find him.

And they say, “Jesus, how could you do this to us? For three days and three nights we have looked for you in sorrow!”

Jesus: “Did you not know that I must be about my Father’s business?”

Similarly, in the final great apostasy, the Jews say, “Jesus, for three great ages we have searched for you in sorrow. HOW could you do this to us?”

Jesus: “Well, DUU-uuH? DId you think that the God who brought you out of Egypt by mighty signs and wonders and walked with you for so many centuries would just take a vacation for three great ages? Did you not KNOW that I must be about my Father’s business? [Namely, for the precise three great AGES that you were looking for the Messiah, the Messiah was busy ‘doing the Father’s business,’, which was to redeem the GENTILES in the precise spiritual path that I walked with you as the yet unIncarnate Son!]”
…
continued below…

 

[spauline]

…continued from last post:

Jesus: “Woman, why are you crying?”
Mary Magdelene: [Jews]: “They have taken my Lord and I do not know where they have laid him.” “The Messiah was supposed to come, and he has not come. I do not know where the hell He is!”]

Jesus: “Woman, why are you crying?”
Mary Magdelene [Jews]: “Sir, if YOU know where they have laid Him, then please tell me in order that I may go and anoint Him.” “We do not recognize Christ as our Messiah, but we have respect for Him as a good Man, and perhaps the Christians can help us find the Messiah“]

Jesus: “Mary!”
Mary Magdelene [Jews]: “Rabbi!” “Teacher! ”]

Just some food for thought!

J

 

[shawn34_a]

There is nothing in your links to indicate that the Jesuits are “military.”

There is so much information out there including in the links that I sent. You just need to be objective and analyze the entire picture.
You do know that it’s a fraternal order of the Catholic church? If there missionary work is so innocent, why did “Clement XIV issue a document suppressing the Society of Jesus. He noted that he did so to maintain peace and tranquility within the Church. He listed the charges against the Society, but made no judgment about their accuracy, and avoided making any condemnation of the Society itself.” I can use any that makes a murderer seem all sweet and kind by using carefully chosen words.
Crying out loud, why would they be surpressed in their own country if something wasn’t wrong?

 

[jmcrae]

You do know that it’s a fraternal order of the Catholic church?

Yes. (So are the Franciscans, and the Carmelites, and the Benedictines.)

If there missionary work is so innocent, why did “Clement XIV issue a document suppressing the Society of Jesus. He noted that he did so to maintain peace and tranquility within the Church. He listed the charges against the Society, but made no judgment about their accuracy, and avoided making any condemnation of the Society itself.” I can use any that makes a murderer seem all sweet and kind by using carefully chosen words.
Crying out loud, why would they be surpressed in their own country if something wasn’t wrong?

They were suppressed in Portugal because of their opposition to slavery in South America - they were preventing Portugese settlers in Brazil from enslaving the native peoples, which was putting a damper on productivity (and profits) in the area. This was hitting the King of Portugal in the pocket, because he was wanting to collect taxes on the profits from slave labour in South America. So, he appealed to Pope Clement to suppress the Order of St. Ignatius (aka the Jesuits) and leave his people free to take slaves. Pope Clement caved into this pressure because of political considerations - immediately (although he had been in robust health up to that point) he became extremely ill, and died. Poison was suspected, but no evidence of it was ever found.

His successor immediately reinstated the Jesuits, and decreed that it is a mortal sin for Catholics to keep slaves.

 

[juliamajor]

jmcrae;3047069:

There is nothing in your links to indicate that the Jesuits are “military.”

There is so much information out there including in the links that I sent. You just need to be objective and analyze the entire picture.
You do know that it’s a fraternal order of the Catholic church? If there missionary work is so innocent, why did “Clement XIV issue a document suppressing the Society of Jesus. He noted that he did so to maintain peace and tranquility within the Church. He listed the charges against the Society, but made no judgment about their accuracy, and avoided making any condemnation of the Society itself.” I can use any that makes a murderer seem all sweet and kind by using carefully chosen words.
Crying out loud, why would they be surpressed in their own country if something wasn’t wrong?

even funnier!!

 

[juliamajor]

jmcrae;3047069:

There is nothing in your links to indicate that the Jesuits are “military.”

There is so much information out there including in the links that I sent. You just need to be objective and analyze the entire picture.
You do know that it’s a fraternal order of the Catholic church? If there missionary work is so innocent, why did “Clement XIV issue a document suppressing the Society of Jesus. He noted that he did so to maintain peace and tranquility within the Church. He listed the charges against the Society, but made no judgment about their accuracy, and avoided making any condemnation of the Society itself.” I can use any that makes a murderer seem all sweet and kind by using carefully chosen words.
Crying out loud, why would they be surpressed in their own country if something wasn’t wrong?

Even funnier!!! -isn’t shawn 34 a scream