second question for our non-catholic brethern

[PJM]

=pocohombre;11456329]Ambrose- " I say, when he heard: “But who do you say I am” [Matt. 16:15], immediately, not unmindful of his station, exercised his primacy, that is, the primacy of confession, not of honor; the primacy of belief, not of rank. That is to say: “Now let no one outdo me; now is my role; "Faith, then, is the foundation of the Church, for it was not said of Peter’s flesh, but of his faith, that “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it” angelfire.com/ny4/djw/ambrose.petrineprimacy.html

OK

But my friend, your reading TOOOOO much into this.

Ambrose is NOT disputing NOR refuting the primacy of Peter here. It was a KNOWN and ACCEPTED fact then and now.

Take careful note here that Ambrose does not Mention the “KEY"S”, only that Christ promises that the gates of Hell shall not prevail against this New ONE Faith in One Church.

He’s making an ENTIRELY different and seperate point.

READ John 17:14-20 for further evidence of this fact.

God Bless you my friend!
Patrick

And please do not ignore that in choosing Peter is following OT Tradition of One man in charge.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Chair of Peter references all bishops, not just Peter and Rome.

Who is your bishop and do you know the line of succession from him back to the Apostles?

Also, which pope appointed him?

Thanks.

 

[daler]

Well hello. I do see things somewhat differently. The fact is God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Another fact man is also the same. There is also nothing new under the sun. The battle between good and evil, that He has won continues on for a time. For us it began at the fall in the garden, and will end with His final return. He holds it all in His hands and is surprised by nothing. He has His dispensations and covenants. If we keep our eye only on those we will be disappointed. If we keep our eye on Him, we see perfection in it all. So what is your focus,the “religion”, the dispensation, the “box” ? You will be disappointed then for as you say there is always “schism”. The first one took place at the garden.The next one with Cain and Abel and on down the line. I would not judge the covenants or God’s method of dealing based on the obvious downfalls, They are not due to God. Having said that the final covenant fulfills all the rest,so in the end all were “PERFECTLY FULFILLED” . Judaism was perfect, for she brought forth the Child, as promised on day one of the fall. Christianity will fulfill it’s destiny, and will be the bride at His second coming, saints from every tribe and nation… Look at at the covenant keepers, Judaism and Christianity. All human beings with all their frailties. Perfect scenario, for in that God is manifested gracious, longsuffering, loving, powerful and saving etc., etc… There has always been a remnant of faithful .There has always been those full of His Spirit, especially in this last dispensation where He can indwell fully in the believer. There is no other explanation for church growth, especially under persecution of death. Indeed the gates of hell, death itself, shall not prevail against this implant of God in the regenerated heart. Nothing can separate us from His love. So He is fully alive today in the lives of many believers, and is quite a visible Church. So, what is the problem ? Do we really need another thought process, another Box to put God and truth in, another religion, another name in which all men under heaven can be saved by ?

Dear friend, Poco,
. I thank you for the courteous response and your genuine thoughts. What comes to my mind is that nature works in a certain way, and that the Holy Spirit is sort of like the Divine Fragrance of God which appears from age to age, and must have a Vehicle, if you can follow the intent of the analogy here for a minute.
. What I’m getting at is that if I look for this year’s fragrance in last year’s rose, I will get only a faint whiff, for last year’s rose has naturally (according to the laws of nature) withered and disintegrated over time. The new vehicle of nature then, is another rose, similar to the one which appeared last year, and the year before that, etc ad infinitum.
. It would seem to me that with our nose raised high, we should inhale the fragrance of the rose in this day and follow the scent to its source. Now if I meet a fellow on the corner who is selling me roses, I first inspect them to see that they are fresh. If, upon inspection, something doesn’t look right: they are quite old, the petals are falling off, the leaves are blotched, then perhaps I go on to the next fellow, and the next, until I find a rose with bright red petals and a strong perfume and fresh green leaves!

. The scenario you mention, beginning in the Garden, continuing with Cain and Able, and all the Prophets is an ongoing story with new actors appearing on stage in every age. What role we all play is according to our desires of who we want to be. Shall I identify myself with Obiwan Kenobe or Darth Vader? There is always another act, for the end of the age is always followed by a new beginning.

. “And thou shalt be called by a New Name, which the Mouth of the Lord shall utter…”

Both Isaiah 62:2 and Rev 3:12 suggest a “new box”

.

 

[PJM]

=eddie too;11456372]and when there is disagreement among the bishops, then division is the result.

i will never believe that Jesus set up a system that was designed to encourage or even allow division amongst His followers.

i know this is the protestant belief. i respect the protestants’ right to believe anything they choose. it is evident that protestants have chosen division in Christ’s mystical body.

i will never believe that Jesus chose division.

A Word of CAUTION HERE

In this type of discourse its CRITICAL to express more precisely what we mean.

NO-ONE can disagree with the Pope and Magisteriums Teachings on Faith beliefs and Morals.

Other matters can be held as One OWN personal opinions. BUT never Faith and Moral issues.

 

[SteveVH]

It would seem to me that with our nose raised high, we should inhale the fragrance of the rose in this day and follow the scent to its source. Now if I meet a fellow on the corner who is selling me roses, I first inspect them to see that they are fresh. If, upon inspection, something doesn’t look right: they are quite old, the petals are falling off, the leaves are blotched, then perhaps I go on to the next fellow, and the next, until I find a rose with bright red petals and a strong perfume and fresh green leaves!

Do you realize what you are implying concerning our Lord and Savior? Just wondering.

 

[Reuben_J]

Basically the Pope is the shepherd of the Lord’s sheep. The feeding of the sheep done by the Pope trickles down to the priests who have a long relationship that can be traced all the way to the Pope.

As a shepherd the faithful are to submit to him and be thankful for his leadership, a leadership comes from God no less. They are to do and to assent what he exhorts. Some of the disobedience to the Pope in these matters may not amount to sin, it is nevertheless encumbent upon Catholics to obey the Pope.

As for matter of faith and moral, these are basically the belief of the Church, Pope or no Pope. The Pope merely is affirming and restating these belief when the need arises.

 

[daler]

Do you realize what you are implying concerning our Lord and Savior? Just wondering.

Steve,
. Friend, I think you are reading this in the wrong light, or else I did not express myself properly. From your comment, I’m thinking that you are ascribing to me that I was referring to Jesus in the example of the rose of last year. That was by no means my intention at all. Please forgive me for having given you that impression.
. The rose of Jesus is ever fresh, and the fragrance is always plenty. It is always there, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
. My story, not so well told, I can see, has to do only with men - men who become lax at their jobs, failing to provide fresh flowers on the corner. I’m not quite sure how to correctly state this.
. What I am attempting to state is that unless people are constantly renewing themselves with the Spirit, there is a natural tendency towards spiritual atrophy. Not sure if you are following what I intend, or if I am stating it any better at this juncture. Trying…
. Let me say this. That when I turn on the TV and watch those evangelists hyping their stuff from the podium, mugging people over the airwaves, little old ladies of their savings, etc, I see a “racket” going on which has little to do with Christ. Do you know what I mean? They claim to speak for “the Lord”, but they’re selling me dead flowers, like in that Rolling Stones song.
. I used to work on cars, and when a ground wire isn’t solid, or some such, the electricity just doesn’t get to the radio. We need a fresh connection, need to scratch and sand the point of contact. We want “live” current. Do you know what I mean.
. Sorry if I offended you. God always sends us fresh flowers every spring. He is the same God, working in the same garden, always providing humanity with something fresh. Its the “purveyors” who stand between Him and us who alter the flow.
. Hope this helps a little.
. God bless, always, brother,
. Dale

 

[pocohombre]

No, because it does not require an authoritative decision.

No, any moral correction involves a decision and surely discenrmet and has to have an authoratative base, unless you are relativistic.

To define and proclaim dogma and doctrine and to administer the sacraments requires authority handed down by the Apostles. To proclaim a set of writings as the inspired, inerrant word of God requires authority.
So I ask you again. Where do you find this authority?

Those things require(d) authoratative decisions. Many things do not require authority for they have already been decided (eg.- scripture, and most of our doctrines.) Actually most of our foundation has been laid since 300 -400 A.D. As you know many historians claim the evolving of the papacy , if even in it’s effectualness. So how is it that so much foundation was laid when the Papacy was the weakest, either by definition or allowance of church itself, or by poor travel, communication, or political upheaval and or restraint? It was tough enough for the bishop of Rome to have dominion over her surrounding area for centuries. Then how was it done the first five hundred years, even milennia ? Even in a limited primacy, you still had patriarchs, bishops and councils, did you not ? The pope did not even attend some of the first few. It is just ironic that the pope is strongest when we have almost two milennia of foundation. He is stronger due to Vat 1 which I believe places himself above councils. What do we have left to decide (that couldn’t be done by a council) ?

 

[pocohombre]

Ultramontanists – or at least some of them – don’t seem to see it that way.

Yes. The three rules of power: get it, keep it, grow it. It ain’t pretty, like the quarreling apostles.

 

[pocohombre]

Dear friend, Poco,
. I thank you for the courteous response and your genuine thoughts. What comes to my mind is that nature works in a certain way, and that the Holy Spirit is sort of like the Divine Fragrance of God which appears from age to age, and must have a Vehicle, if you can follow the intent of the analogy here for a minute.
. What I’m getting at is that if I look for this year’s fragrance in last year’s rose, I will get only a faint whiff, for last year’s rose has naturally (according to the laws of nature) withered and disintegrated over time. The new vehicle of nature then, is another rose, similar to the one which appeared last year, and the year before that, etc ad infinitum.
. It would seem to me that with our nose raised high, we should inhale the fragrance of the rose in this day and follow the scent to its source. Now if I meet a fellow on the corner who is selling me roses, I first inspect them to see that they are fresh. If, upon inspection, something doesn’t look right: they are quite old, the petals are falling off, the leaves are blotched, then perhaps I go on to the next fellow, and the next, until I find a rose with bright red petals and a strong perfume and fresh green leaves!

. The scenario you mention, beginning in the Garden, continuing with Cain and Able, and all the Prophets is an ongoing story with new actors appearing on stage in every age. What role we all play is according to our desires of who we want to be. Shall I identify myself with Obiwan Kenobe or Darth Vader? There is always another act, for the end of the age is always followed by a new beginning.

. “And thou shalt be called by a New Name, which the Mouth of the Lord shall utter…”

Both Isaiah 62:2 and Rev 3:12 suggest a “new box”

.

Well, you are suggesting something new under the sun, which there is not .But oh yes we decide, every generation and create a god in our own image. Your nostrils are your God. When you desire nothing you might find Him.You are not free if you care care if the rose is fresh or old, fragrant or not. Shall I say you remind me of the marriage bed that is only worthwhile if it is “different” , or new gimmick or even a new partner. Again, it is about meeting God on his terms not ours.That is the box that contains all boxes, and few be that find it ,for they are busy with "boxes’…Isaiah and Rev suggest the only name for salvation- Jesus for verse 12 says “to make himself an everlasting name” the one who led Moses ,which is Jesus, for he is the Rock in the wilderness. Jesus was the I am, Jehovah of the old testament. He is the “new name’”. As you know he goes by many names signifying his actions ,attributes,but there is only one Jesus, the Christ ,the Way,the Door,the Vine, the Good Shepherd. A new "descriptor’ name is given to the “overcomers” to counter the mark of the beast perhaps or to encourage those not receiving the mark.It does not mean a new box, just a new name for the eternal “box”. His names are personal for he is personal .Much like your lover may be called by many names,like honey, sweetie pie, and some private names known just between the two of you. Vs 2:17- “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the new manna and will give him a white stone written which no man knoweth saving he that receive it” . It was customary in mid east nomadic people to be hospitable and eat with your guest and present him with a stone, and on the bottom was written something personal between the two of you, a special kind of bonding remembrance.

 

[pocohombre]

Who is your bishop and do you know the line of succession from him back to the Apostles?

Also, which pope appointed him?

Thanks.

No and I don’t think you can fully name the succession of your presbyter/bishop either, unless you live in Rome. But I don’t doubt we both have a “chain” of succession. I understand the orthodox have “lists”. Oh and by the way, not sure when pope started appointing bishops beyond Rome, but it certainly did not happen for centuries.

 

[daler]

Well, you are suggesting something new under the sun, which there is not .But oh yes we decide, every generation and create a god in our own image. Your nostrils are your God. When you desire nothing you might find Him.You are not free if you care care if the rose is fresh or old, fragrant or not. Shall I say you remind me of the marriage bed that is only worthwhile if it is “different” , or new gimmick or even a new partner. Again, it is about meeting God on his terms not ours.That is the box that contains all boxes, and few be that find it ,for they are busy with "boxes’…Isaiah and Rev suggest the only name for salvation- Jesus for verse 12 says “to make himself an everlasting name” the one who led Moses ,which is Jesus, for he is the Rock in the wilderness. Jesus was the I am, Jehovah of the old testament. He is the “new name’”. As you know he goes by many names signifying his actions ,attributes,but there is only one Jesus, the Christ ,the Way,the Door,the Vine, the Good Shepherd. A new "descriptor’ name is given to the “overcomers” to counter the mark of the beast perhaps or to encourage those not receiving the mark.It does not mean a new box, just a new name for the eternal “box”. His names are personal for he is personal .Much like your lover may be called by many names,like honey, sweetie pie, and some private names known just between the two of you. Vs 2:17- “To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the new manna and will give him a white stone written which no man knoweth saving he that receive it” . It was customary in mid east nomadic people to be hospitable and eat with your guest and present him with a stone, and on the bottom was written something personal between the two of you, a special kind of bonding remembrance.

Poco,
. Friend, you sure start out pretty mean and judgmental here, don’t cha. I will give you credits for courtesy towards the end, however, and ask you to put down your rocks.
. We have somewhat different understandings of a couple of things, and thats fine, very human as a matter of fact. I think its for “humans” that the Lord shows up every now and then and knocks on our doors.
. I would hope that I would never put limits on God and what He can do and how He does it. If God chooses to recreate His Rose and refresh our nostrils every couple of thousand years, I am just grateful to not have phlegm in my nose and enjoy the fragrance. You do as you see fit, friend, and if you happen to catch a whiff eventually and, when you have, find yourself wanting to share the news of the Rose coming up in the Spiritual Springtime of God’s very own Garden, you might want to find to talk to about it.

. You see, I’m an old guy, just a hog farmer’s son off the reservation, and don’t know much, but have kicked around a few clods of dirt in the fields from time to time, and every so often stumble across something new. Found a stone tomahawk once while clearing rocks from a field back in the sixties, probably left there a few hundred years before by a hunting party. My friend kept his eyes to the ground while pheasant hunting one day between the corn rows and spotted a sharp little arrowhead down on the river bottom.
. Now it may offend you, but my Lord has handed me that little white stone with the New Name on it, and I’ve overcome quite a bit, but you have your pride, so hang onto that for awhile. Meanwhile I’ll just go on collecting rocks…

Peace, brother,
Dale

 

[pocohombre]

Poco,
. Friend, you sure start out pretty mean and judgmental here, don’t cha. I will give you credits for courtesy towards the end, however, and ask you to put down your rocks.
. We have somewhat different understandings of a couple of things, and thats fine, very human as a matter of fact. I think its for “humans” that the Lord shows up every now and then and knocks on our doors.
. I would hope that I would never put limits on God and what He can do and how He does it. If God chooses to recreate His Rose and refresh our nostrils every couple of thousand years, I am just grateful to not have phlegm in my nose and enjoy the fragrance. You do as you see fit, friend, and if you happen to catch a whiff eventually and, when you have, find yourself wanting to share the news of the Rose coming up in the Spiritual Springtime of God’s very own Garden, you might want to find to talk to about it.

. You see, I’m an old guy, just a hog farmer’s son off the reservation, and don’t know much, but have kicked around a few clods of dirt in the fields from time to time, and every so often stumble across something new. Found a stone tomahawk once while clearing rocks from a field back in the sixties, probably left there a few hundred years before by a hunting party. My friend kept his eyes to the ground while pheasant hunting one day between the corn rows and spotted a sharp little arrowhead down on the river bottom.
. Now it may offend you, but my Lord has handed me that little white stone with the New Name on it, and I’ve overcome quite a bit, but you have your pride, so hang onto that for awhile. Meanwhile I’ll just go on collecting rocks…

Peace, brother,
Dale

Yes I sensed my judgemntalism,sorry.Lack of forebearance at least.Hope you can get past my pride and see some picture of my Lord.Not sure what you mean by Lord. the closest thing i get from you is that yes we can have broken cisterns and not receive from the Lord,or we have a mountaintop experience and we individually or corporatley want to make a monument there ,and remain there.Like at the transfiguration, like "lutheranism’ or "methodism’,even pentecostalism ,or the Toronto movement,or how people get excited about someone having a "vision’ etc etc.God does move as he pleases,but what happens to the wind when you put it in a box ? Yet He is defined, even by Himself in the person of Jesus. That is fathomless,and the seeker can finally rest.Blessings.Christian Blessings.

 

[pocohombre]

A Word of CAUTION HERE

In this type of discourse its CRITICAL to express more precisely what we mean.

NO-ONE can disagree with the Pope and Magisteriums Teachings on Faith beliefs and Morals.

Other matters can be held as One OWN personal opinions. BUT never Faith and Moral issues.

To be precise are you reaffirming old papal decrees against freedom of conscience and against freedom of religion ?

 

[pocohombre]

I agree with you - we are commanded to obey the Church but how can we obey what we can’t see or know? We can only obey if we know with confidence who speaks on behalf of the Church. Otherwise we are only following our personal opinions and those with whom we already agree - but obedience also includes doing things we don’t agree with, or else why have a commandment for it?

Invisible is a wrong word ,but kliska put it visible with giftings and offices.The church is quite visblible by any denominational definition. No one is denying the Body of Christ is God’s literal finger in and on this Earth. The working of the Holy Spirit is the invisble part. As Jeus said, He is like the wind, yet we hear it as it interacts with things in it’s path. We see His effects. The true believer knows what he knows and sees what he sees. If not he knows who is taking Him and that it is for good (the obedience you speak of, though not cause we disagree but still obey, but because we don’t fully see or know but trust and obey,and walk by faith)

 

[daler]

Yes I sensed my judgemntalism,sorry.Lack of forebearance at least.Hope you can get past my pride and see some picture of my Lord.Not sure what you mean by Lord. the closest thing i get from you is that yes we can have broken cisterns and not receive from the Lord,or we have a mountaintop experience and we individually or corporatley want to make a monument there ,and remain there.Like at the transfiguration, like "lutheranism’ or "methodism’,even pentecostalism ,or the Toronto movement,or how people get excited about someone having a "vision’ etc etc.God does move as he pleases,but what happens to the wind when you put it in a box ? Yet He is defined, even by Himself in the person of Jesus. That is fathomless,and the seeker can finally rest.Blessings.Christian Blessings.

Well, friend, I’ve found the Holy Spirit in the Great Spirit in Sweat Lodges as well as Churches and its the same Holy Spirit, hanging around the poor and downtrodden who are in real need of God and humble enough to leave their ego buried beneath the outhouse. When that gets out of the way, and one truly, truly fulfills the “Seek and ye shall find”, by golly the Lord comes knockin’ on your door and its best we let Him in.

Hanblecheyapi, or the Vision Quest, is the Lakota way. I’ve fasted, prayed with them, inside and outside of churches, on the hills, or high cliffs and mountains. If the soul is yearning, it will be guided, and in ways often unexpected. God does “not” fit inside a box, especially a white man’s box on the missing shelf of a tee pee". He lives, you might say, in the hearts of those who purify themselves to receive Him, and for those too proud to clean His House, which is the heart and home reserved for Himself, He returns to His heavenly abode.

If I may share a brief quote from a little book called the Hidden Words, it says:

O SON OF BEING!

Thy heart is My home; sanctify it for My descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for My manifestation. . . Baha’u’llah

Thank you for the very kind words, Poco
Daler
.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Steve,
. Friend, I think you are reading this in the wrong light, or else I did not express myself properly. From your comment, I’m thinking that you are ascribing to me that I was referring to Jesus in the example of the rose of last year. That was by no means my intention at all. Please forgive me for having given you that impression.
. The rose of Jesus is ever fresh, and the fragrance is always plenty. It is always there, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
. My story, not so well told, I can see, has to do only with men - men who become lax at their jobs, failing to provide fresh flowers on the corner. I’m not quite sure how to correctly state this.
. What I am attempting to state is that unless people are constantly renewing themselves with the Spirit, there is a natural tendency towards spiritual atrophy. Not sure if you are following what I intend, or if I am stating it any better at this juncture. Trying…
. Let me say this. That when I turn on the TV and watch those evangelists hyping their stuff from the podium, mugging people over the airwaves, little old ladies of their savings, etc, I see a “racket” going on which has little to do with Christ. Do you know what I mean? They claim to speak for “the Lord”, but they’re selling me dead flowers, like in that Rolling Stones song.
. I used to work on cars, and when a ground wire isn’t solid, or some such, the electricity just doesn’t get to the radio. We need a fresh connection, need to scratch and sand the point of contact. We want “live” current. Do you know what I mean.
. Sorry if I offended you. God always sends us fresh flowers every spring. He is the same God, working in the same garden, always providing humanity with something fresh. Its the “purveyors” who stand between Him and us who alter the flow.
. Hope this helps a little.
. God bless, always, brother,
. Dale

I like the way you think Daler.

 

[Kliska]

Well, friend, I’ve found the Holy Spirit in the Great Spirit in Sweat Lodges as well as Churches and its the same Holy Spirit, hanging around the poor and downtrodden who are in real need of God and humble enough to leave their ego buried beneath the outhouse. When that gets out of the way, and one truly, truly fulfills the “Seek and ye shall find”, by golly the Lord comes knockin’ on your door and its best we let Him in.

Hanblecheyapi, or the Vision Quest, is the Lakota way. I’ve fasted, prayed with them, inside and outside of churches, on the hills, or high cliffs and mountains. If the soul is yearning, it will be guided, and in ways often unexpected. God does “not” fit inside a box, especially a white man’s box on the missing shelf of a tee pee". He lives, you might say, in the hearts of those who purify themselves to receive Him, and for those too proud to clean His House, which is the heart and home reserved for Himself, He returns to His heavenly abode.

If I may share a brief quote from a little book called the Hidden Words, it says:

O SON OF BEING!

Thy heart is My home; sanctify it for My descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for My manifestation. . . Baha’u’llah

Thank you for the very kind words, Poco
Daler
.

I would suspect even you believe it is in God’s power to create a firm, unchanging foundation and truth for those who are called. And who is called? All are called to hear the truth, and that truth is a Person, a living eternal Person Who has directly told us Who He is and what He expects, and that the time of diverse communications has ceased. Even if you don’t believe it, can you see that it is possible?

God takes care of those people who have never heard the gospel in a just and fair way, and even more so with those who have heard, but once heard denial of Jesus as the sole name by which we must be saved cements man into their sin, for they are spitting in the very face of God by denying the Son and His unique role. We have the word of God giving us direct understanding of the Word of God. We already know the fate of those that preach a different gospel.

 

[Randy_Carson]

No and I don’t think you can fully name the succession of your presbyter/bishop either, unless you live in Rome. But I don’t doubt we both have a “chain” of succession. I understand the orthodox have “lists”. Oh and by the way, not sure when pope started appointing bishops beyond Rome, but it certainly did not happen for centuries.

First, you’re right…you can’t trace the succession of your bishop - if your denomination even has them. Perhaps you can share your denomination with us, so that we can tailor our presentations to more closely match your particular perspective.

Second, the Catholic bishops can trace their succession - that’s kinda the point. It’s a big deal…

Third, you are correct; there was a change in the way bishops are appointed. Since this is a matter of Church discipline and not of divinely revealed dogma, the change is not a problem

 

[SteveVH]

No, any moral correction involves a decision and surely discenrmet and has to have an authoratative base, unless you are relativistic.

I do not need an authority to tell me when I have offended my neighbor nor do I need to seek approval when asking for forgiveness or when deciding to forgive. Please.

Those things require(d) authoratative decisions. Many things do not require authority for they have already been decided (eg.- scripture, and most of our doctrines.) Actually most of our foundation has been laid since 300 -400 A.D. As you know many historians claim the evolving of the papacy , if even in it’s effectualness. So how is it that so much foundation was laid when the Papacy was the weakest, either by definition or allowance of church itself, or by poor travel, communication, or political upheaval and or restraint? It was tough enough for the bishop of Rome to have dominion over her surrounding area for centuries. Then how was it done the first five hundred years, even milennia ? Even in a limited primacy, you still had patriarchs, bishops and councils, did you not ? The pope did not even attend some of the first few. It is just ironic that the pope is strongest when we have almost two milennia of foundation. He is stronger due to Vat 1 which I believe places himself above councils. What do we have left to decide (that couldn’t be done by a council) ?

Are you telling me that you accept the authority of Catholic councils? Either your position is very confusing or I am not understanding your point.