second question for our non-catholic brethern

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Thanks ,just looked it up and all were before Christ ,I mean Jesus incarnate.Thanks

They also had the idea of God incarnate in human form long before Jesus as well. Worship of Krishna (Hindu incarnation of God in human form), can be traced back as early as the 4th century BC.

 

[pocohombre]

Cough, cough…

Religion

I am laughing cause i actually looked up your "religion’ site and the obvious “cough cough”.

 

[pocohombre]

They also had the idea of God incarnate in human form long before Jesus as well. Worship of Krishna (Hindu incarnation of God in human form), can be traced back as early as the 4th century BC.

Thanks, getting faint memories of fifth grade I think.

 

[pocohombre]

Their authority certainly is. For example, what does Protestantism teach about human sexuality? It’s all over the map, in practice - everything from the traditional definition of marriage, to allowing common-law arrangements, to actually blessing same-sex unions, with no one tell them they can’t do that - and everyone has his own opinion, but no one can say definitively, this is the teaching, according to Protestantism.

Shall i say I am an assembly of God person and all over the world/map we have the same view of sexuality,marriage,abortion -the same faith statement. We are doctrinally unified as CC is. It it your fault that we differ on some things? Then how is it my fault that other denominations differ from me (Assemblies) ?

 

[pocohombre]

Actually, it isn’t. Now, don’t get me wrong…I’m not saying that the leaders of of AoG are not holy, God-fearing, etc. But, and this is the part Bible Christians have a hard time with, either you have Apostolic Succession or you don’t.

Not sure. A christian minister does not pop out of thin air. My pastor is the fruit of someone’s ministry, and that one is also built upon someone elses, on down the line, quite logically. Eventually you might get down to a reformer. Many reformers were birthed out of Catholicism, and some even ordained. As a Lutheran might be considered grafted in, so could someone be grated in or out of Lutheranism,lets say to start a Four Square church etc. .I would not consider any of this to have breaks as you do not consider a break when a pope is heretical or bad or with any other kind of dispute. But we go in circles We don’t keep records of succession, at least in churches I have been associated with. As you are careful in your ordinations and succession, we are taught to be careful in picking the right church, based on it’s ministry and faith creeds.
Thanks for the info .

 

[pocohombre]

Well, friend, I’ve found the Holy Spirit in the Great Spirit in Sweat Lodges as well as Churches and its the same Holy Spirit, hanging around the poor and downtrodden who are in real need of God and humble enough to leave their ego buried beneath the outhouse. When that gets out of the way, and one truly, truly fulfills the “Seek and ye shall find”, by golly the Lord comes knockin’ on your door and its best we let Him in.

Hanblecheyapi, or the Vision Quest, is the Lakota way. I’ve fasted, prayed with them, inside and outside of churches, on the hills, or high cliffs and mountains. If the soul is yearning, it will be guided, and in ways often unexpected. God does “not” fit inside a box, especially a white man’s box on the missing shelf of a tee pee". He lives, you might say, in the hearts of those who purify themselves to receive Him, and for those too proud to clean His House, which is the heart and home reserved for Himself, He returns to His heavenly abode.

If I may share a brief quote from a little book called the Hidden Words, it says:

O SON OF BEING!

Thy heart is My home; sanctify it for My descent. Thy spirit is My place of revelation; cleanse it for My manifestation. . . Baha’u’llah

Thank you for the very kind words, Poco
Daler
.

Sorry for answering you last … It’s not easy to answer cause of the content to digest and cause of our and your congeniality, as others have also noted about you. It is interesting that just the other day I saw an old movie on tv ,about the Lakotas, and they had a dream quest in it .(A British aristocrat returns to America and the Lakotas that raised him as a child, and after a dream quest he helps them get some justice from unscrupulous traders, and regain access to their burial ground). I am thinking of another movie that depicted the struggle between good and evil in an Indian drama. I remember some indians were just creepy mean and others very wise and moral and spiritually upright and of course the two clashed. Anyways it’s late and hope to get back to you .Thanks

 

[daler]

Which begs the question. Why then do we need a new Rose?

So if I understand you, you are saying that it is a failure of man to bring the fragrance of Christ to the world and therefore we need to be reminded ever so often through various manifestations. This would mean, however, that Christ’s own Church has failed in its great commission to teach all nations. It then follows that Christ’s promises to this Church have failed. Yet the evidence in front of us supports the Catholic position that His Church will never fail. As I have already stated, it is the oldest institution on earth, having outlived every single human institution on earth since its inception. Reality does not contradict the claim, but rather supports it.

God bless.

Steve

Steve,
. Thank you very much for understanding what it seems may be a little hard for me to properly communicate. Also, before it slips my mind, I want to say thank you for all the patience and loving Christian dialogue I have received from you and so many others on the CAF threads.

. There is something sacred, so very sacred, about the Holy Spirit which God sends to humanity. It is like the bright summer sun, but also the winter sun, and the fall and spring sun. It is each of these, and it appears and disappears, then reappears each morning.

. In this amazing age we live in, I have to wonder whats going on in the rest of the universe. (I really like the Hubble… Although it seems to extend beyond the Genesis story, I don’t think it contradicts it, and what we’re finding out is that there are more planets out there than stars, and they figure at least 20% of the stars have planets in the “habitable zone”.

. We can’t confine God to our own understanding. “He doeth what He willeth” He has sent His Prophets and Messengers to earth for humanity. I gotta wonder how those Martians could get along without their own Noahs, Moses, and Jesuses. (sp?)

. When we accept the beauty of the rose, we also recollect that the ancestor of that rose blossomed in full bloom in grandma’s garden, too. And her grandma’s, and hers, and hers, and hers ad infinitum. It seems a shame to think that God would not keep sending roses to all the future grandmas to their gardens, forever, and ever, and ever…

. There are Spiritual Roses, too, and Spiritual Springtimes in which They appear, renewing the Beauty and the Fragrances which poured forth from ancient times. Each season has its Light, and then there is a period of darkness, though in reality, that Light always goes on shining. It can never be put out. No matter how many times we hack down those Roses, they just shine on, and on, and on… (makes me think of John Lennon’s song…

. We live in a world of time. God doesn’t need time. We do. So in our world of time, this or that happens, and we look at our calendars, and say this is where we’re at on this timeline. In reality, we don’t always know where we’re at. We may be here, or we may be there - in relation to what God does, I mean, for us. So what time is it? Really? Is it Spring yet?

. God bless you, brother Steve.

. Thought I heard the cock crow…

.

 

[daler]

Sorry for answering you last … It’s not easy to answer cause of the content to digest and cause of our and your congeniality, as others have also noted about you. It is interesting that just the other day I saw an old movie on tv ,about the Lakotas, and they had a dream quest in it .(A British aristocrat returns to America and the Lakotas that raised him as a child, and after a dream quest he helps them get some justice from unscrupulous traders, and regain access to their burial ground). I am thinking of another movie that depicted the struggle between good and evil in an Indian drama. I remember some indians were just creepy mean and others very wise and moral and spiritually upright and of course the two clashed. Anyways it’s late and hope to get back to you .Thanks

Poco,
. So good to get to know you here, brother, and thanks for the sentiments. My Judo instructor was a professor of history and did the research for the making of the movie: “A Man Called Horse.” Sensei Dollar also taught the actors how to fall from their horses without getting hurt. Its the first thing you learn when taking Judo, cause if you don’t learn how to fall properly, you’re really gonna get hurt. Busted ankles and ribs - that kinda hurt!

. Richard Harris played the character you’re talking about. It is one of the few realistic portrayals of Native American movies made up till that point. I grew up east of Dances With Wolves country, about 200 miles from Wounded Knee. Got a lot of friends back in those parts.

. One can learn from ancient peoples, about God, for example. Thought they call Him Wakan Tanka, the Great Spirit, He is the same One others call Gott, Allah, or Jehovah. We can all point to the sun and say this word or that, and nod our heads that the sun is what we mean by our respective word, but for some reason or other, people seem to get confused over “Who’s God is it anyway?”

. Then they get mad, and say, “Well, they don’t worship God. They worship the Great Spirit, or Allah, or whatever…” It ain’t rocket science. Thats what was so cool about going to the moon. They looked back and saw that it was just earth; yours, mine, and ours. There was a great song by Seals and Crofts called: “One Planet, One People Please…”

. Wow! Ain’t You Tube great? Here’s the link to the song (5 minutes long) Please give it a listen, Poco:

youtube.com/watch?v=pYSpChQPkro

.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Not sure. A christian minister does not pop out of thin air.

Some do, some don’t.

In a mainline church such as Baptist or Methodist, the pastor went to seminary.

In a store-front non-denominational church, the pastor probably started by leading a Bible study for a few friends in his living room.

EITHER way, there is no direct connection to the Apostles.

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

From Daler: When we accept the beauty of the rose, we also recollect that the ancestor of that rose blossomed in full bloom in grandma’s garden, too. And her grandma’s, and hers, and hers, and hers ad infinitum. It seems a shame to think that God would not keep sending roses to all the future grandmas to their gardens, forever, and ever, and ever…

. There are Spiritual Roses, too, and Spiritual Springtimes in which They appear, renewing the Beauty and the Fragrances which poured forth from ancient times. Each season has its Light, and then there is a period of darkness, though in reality, that Light always goes on shining. It can never be put out. No matter how many times we hack down those Roses, they just shine on, and on, and on… (makes me think of John Lennon’s song…

Very well said Daler. I see the logic in what you are saying. I would add that while we can’t very well know the mind of God, we can know something of it in creation itself. Creation plainly expresses an appetition for change, cycles and evolution to ever new levels of complexity and diversity, and in each new permutation all prior forms are still visible. What God has created seems to be fractal in nature. Fractals can be seen in all things, most especially in bifurcations such as tree branches. I think it’s all about experience, and this is the purpose of our existence. And for experience to happen, the world cannot be static. While the trunk of a tree may be it’s foundation, the leaves and blossoms are at the leading tips of the branches. All things work in this way, and our behavior, whether knowingly or not, usually replicates the same patterns of behavior. This is why ideas about God change, because while all former ideas can be seen in the latest, our experience of God and the world around us changes and evolves. Rather than making the old obsolete, it is seen simply as part of a continuum. This inbuilt proclivity for change and variety in expression is probably why attempts to mandate and maintain one uniform and regimented approach to God and the word around us has proven to be such a frustrated enterprise. This is because while we can certainly say that the trunk of a tree is the foundation and the oldest part, we will never be able to stop new branches, and this is the will of God as manifest in the world anyone can plainly see.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[Gary_Sheldrake]

Very well said Daler. I see the logic in what you are saying. I would add that while we can’t very well know the mind of God, we can know something of it in creation itself. Creation plainly expresses an appetition for change, cycles and evolution to ever new levels of complexity and diversity, and in each new permutation all prior forms are still visible. What God has created seems to be fractal in nature. Fractals can be seen in all things, most especially in bifurcations such as tree branches. I think it’s all about experience, and this is the purpose of our existence. And for experience to happen, the world cannot be static. While the trunk of a tree may be it’s foundation, the leaves and blossoms are at the leading tips of the branches. All things work in this way, and our behavior, whether knowingly or not, usually replicates the same patterns of behavior. This is why ideas about God change, because while all former ideas can be seen in the latest, our experience of God and the world around us changes and evolves. Rather than making the old obsolete, it is seen simply as part of a continuum. This inbuilt proclivity for change and variety in expression is probably why attempts to mandate and maintain one uniform and regimented approach to God and the word around us has proven to be such a frustrated enterprise. This is because while we can certainly say that the trunk of a tree is the foundation and the oldest part, we will never be able to stop new branches, and this is the will of God as manifest in the world anyone can plainly see.

Thanks,
Gary

My reference to the fractal nature of God and creation, wherein the source can be seen in all permutations and each new variation is anticipated in the source can be mathematically and visually demonstrated here:

youtube.com/watch?v=0jGaio87u3A

There are no words or commentary. All you have to do is watch it work if you have a minute.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[pocohombre]

Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear “I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

Continued Blessings my friend!

Augustine is fairly representative of the opinion of the Fathers in these comments on Matthew 16:

" But whom say ye that I am? Peter answered, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ One for many gave the answer, Unity in many. Then said the Lord to him, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.’ Then He added, ‘and I say unto thee.’ As if He had said, ‘Because thou hast said unto Me, ‘Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God,” I also say unto thee, ‘Thou art Peter.” For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. ‘Therefore,’ he saith, ‘Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock’ which thou hast confessed, upon this rock which thou hast acknowledged, saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church;’ that is upon Myself, the Son of the Living God, ‘will I build My Church.’ I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon Thee.

For men who wished to be built upon men, said, “I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas,” who is Peter. But others who did not wish to build upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, “But! am of Christ.” And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter". Saint Augustin, Sermons on New Testament Lessons, Sermon 26.1-2
…One more father claiming Christ , not Peter , to be the Rock of Matt16 , on which the church is built. Peter is the “figure” a symbol for the church. Now upon Christ are all the apostles laid for our foundation, as per Revelations. Peter is representative ( a" figure") of all the apostles and of us (and contrary to Vatican 1).

 

[pocohombre]

Some do, some don’t.

In a mainline church such as Baptist or Methodist, the pastor went to seminary.

In a store-front non-denominational church, the pastor probably started by leading a Bible study for a few friends in his living room.

True, as far as physical ordaining, but the spiritual succession is there even for the LR pastor for from someone, some ministry, he came to faith, and that from hearing the Word of God, “for by the foolishness of preaching so He chose for men to be saved”.

EITHER way, there is no *direct *connection to the Apostles.

Jesus taught us that spirit is thicker than blood, even kindred blood. Whosever does the will of the Father is Christ’s brother, mother etc. Apostolic is as apostolic does. ( A Forest Gump’er). There definitely can be a *direct *spiritual connection as surely there can be a physical link of laying on of hands. The laying on of the Spirit is the essence, and oversight /ordination should be welcomed .

 

[daler]

Very well said Daler. I see the logic in what you are saying. I would add that while we can’t very well know the mind of God, we can know something of it in creation itself. Creation plainly expresses an appetition for change, cycles and evolution to ever new levels of complexity and diversity, and in each new permutation all prior forms are still visible. What God has created seems to be fractal in nature. Fractals can be seen in all things, most especially in bifurcations such as tree branches. I think it’s all about experience, and this is the purpose of our existence. And for experience to happen, the world cannot be static. While the trunk of a tree may be it’s foundation, the leaves and blossoms are at the leading tips of the branches. All things work in this way, and our behavior, whether knowingly or not, usually replicates the same patterns of behavior. This is why ideas about God change, because while all former ideas can be seen in the latest, our experience of God and the world around us changes and evolves. Rather than making the old obsolete, it is seen simply as part of a continuum. This inbuilt proclivity for change and variety in expression is probably why attempts to mandate and maintain one uniform and regimented approach to God and the word around us has proven to be such a frustrated enterprise. This is because while we can certainly say that the trunk of a tree is the foundation and the oldest part, we will never be able to stop new branches, and this is the will of God as manifest in the world anyone can plainly see.

Thanks,
Gary

Gary,
. Thank you for the excellent thoughts and reasoning here. No matter how much we try to confine the Great Spirit to our little white boxes, He just refuses to go there!

. It was snowing in the mountains where I live a little while ago, and they say every snowflake is unique. Zillions exponentially compounded by zillions cubed, or something like that. Then figure all the snowflakes on the billions of planets in the billions of galaxies and apply fractals to infinity. Thats just what God does on His day off, right?

. So our paradigms have to set aside for new paradigms, and conventional ways of viewing reality, both physical and spiritual must evolve cohesively with evidence and reasoning. How flat the earth of our thinking must be in comparison to the oceans which await us, yet we perceive but a drop from within the lens of the eye of a spiritual fetus and confine the Manifestations of God to our mortal understanding.

. If I may share what comes to mind as a further reference to the subject:

. “Say: Nature in its essence is the embodiment of My Name, the Maker, the Creator. Its manifestations are diversified by varying causes, and in this diversity there are signs for men of discernment. Nature is God’s Will and is its expression in and through the contingent world. It is a dispensation of Providence ordained by the Ordainer, the All-Wise. Were anyone to affirm that it is the Will of God as manifested in the world of being, no one should question this assertion. It is endowed with a power whose reality men of learning fail to grasp. Indeed a man of insight can perceive naught therein save the effulgent splendour of Our Name, the Creator. Say: This is an existence which knoweth no decay, and Nature itself is lost in bewilderment before its revelations, its compelling evidences and its effulgent glory which have encompassed the universe.”

from the Tablet of Hikmat, by Baha’u’llah

reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/TB/tb-10.html

.

 

[daler]

True, as far as physical ordaining, but the spiritual succession is there even for the LR pastor for from someone, some ministry, he came to faith, and that from hearing the Word of God, “for by the foolishness of preaching so He chose for men to be saved”.

Jesus taught us that spirit is thicker than blood, even kindred blood. Whosever does the will of the Father is Christ’s brother, mother etc. Apostolic is as apostolic does. ( A Forest Gump’er). There definitely can be a *direct *spiritual connection as surely there can be a physical link of laying on of hands. The laying on of the Spirit is the essence, and oversight /ordination should be welcomed .

Poco,
. Your spiritual heart is beating with the rhythm of an ancient drum, my friend. As Bob Dylan sang: “You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows”

. Even Toto knew what a tornado was, and he didn’t even go to school. Learned all he needed to know from chewin’ on a bone…

. “Life is like a box of dogfood. Mah Mama said…”

.

 

[Kliska]

Poco,
. Your spiritual heart is beating with the rhythm of an ancient drum, my friend. As Bob Dylan sang: “You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows”

. Even Toto knew what a tornado was, and he didn’t even go to school. Learned all he needed to know from chewin’ on a bone…

. “Life is like a box of dogfood. Mah Mama said…”

.

On the contrary, Poco has met a man that is Truth Personified. This man, God the Son, left us His Spirit and His word. What He says is Truth and He backed it up by raising from the dead. The is none like Him, and anyone trying to steal His sheep won’t be looked on kindly by the Shepherd.

Again, I say, if the Creator says that there is one foundation, one Truth. and one name by which we must be saved… you must allow that as a possibility at the very least, yes?

 

[PJM]

=pocohombre;11464421]Augustine is fairly representative of the opinion of the Fathers in these comments on Matthew 16:

" But whom say ye that I am? Peter answered, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ One for many gave the answer, Unity in many. Then said the Lord to him, ‘Blessed art thou, Simon Barjonas: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father which is in heaven.’ Then He added, ‘and I say unto thee.’ As if He had said, ‘Because thou hast said unto Me, ‘Thou art the Christ the Son of the living God,” I also say unto thee, ‘Thou art Peter.” For before he was called Simon. Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. ‘Therefore,’ he saith, ‘Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock’ which thou hast confessed, upon this rock which thou hast acknowledged, saying, ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church;’ that is upon Myself, the Son of the Living God, ‘will I build My Church.’ I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon Thee.

For men who wished to be built upon men, said, “I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas,” who is Peter. But others who did not wish to build upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, “But! am of Christ.” And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, “Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?” And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter". Saint Augustin, Sermons on New Testament Lessons, Sermon 26.1-2
…One more father claiming Christ , not Peter , to be the Rock of Matt16 , on which the church is built. Peter is the “figure” a symbol for the church. Now upon Christ are all the apostles laid for our foundation, as per Revelations. Peter is representative ( a" figure") of all the apostles and of us (and contrary to Vatican 1).

PLEASE affix a GOLD star on this post:thumbsup:

 

[SteveVH]

Hang in there ,trying to make point about visible authority .How do you know, not that you are offended, but offended because it is wrong to steal ? How do you know the thief is wrong ?

You are trying to tell me that I must appeal to a higher authority in order to know whether or not I have been offended.

Yes, I thought this might logically come up. It is like changing mid stream, right? It is what I proposed the CC did also, by overriding other councils and declaring pope above them.

Please give me an example of a decision made in one council that was “overridden” by another council and then we might have something to discuss.

How does one council override another, by what authority ? It like the authorities come looking to take your neighbor away unjustly but it is ok by you, and then another neighbor is taken, and still ok by you, you are silent until finally they come for you . Some people have a breaking point. The last one was for the Old Catholics after Vat 1, I think. They agree with, or at least accepted, the first 19 councils but that twentieth went too far. They could easily claim and quote Blessed pope Pius IX:

“I am only the pope. What power have I to touch the Canon?”
“If a future pope teaches anything contrary to the Catholic Faith, do not follow him.”
webspace.webring.com/people/u…0the%20Fathers

The power to bind and loose has been intact since Jesus first said the words to Peter. Fully realizing the scope of that authority, no doubt, took some centuries. But groups such as the “Old Catholics” had absolutely no power to override a decision made by the Church and no authority to decide which councils were valid and which were not. Nor do you or I have that authority. By the way, please give me an example of a Pope who overrode a decision of any council?

 

[Protestor]

Just because God gives authority to a group does not mean that they keep it forever. Case and point Jews. :coffeeread:

 

[eddie_too]

what is the evidence, theological and scriptural references, historical references and logic that underlies the belief that Jesus left no one in charge of His Church?

when, in history or scripture, is the concept that Jesus gave Peter authority over the other apostles first disputed?