second question for our non-catholic brethern

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Just because God gives authority to a group does not mean that they keep it forever. Case and point Jews. :coffeeread:
God signified a New Covenant by taking a human nature, entering into His Creation, establishing a Church, and rising from the dead after becoming the Passover Sacrifice.

What did God do to signify the end of that Covenant and the beginning of a Protestant Covenant? (And while we’re at it, which Protestant group now holds the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven?)
 
Just because God gives authority to a group does not mean that they keep it forever. Case and point Jews. :coffeeread:
According to the scriptures, the authority passed from the Jews to the early Church.

As far as I can tell, that same Church still has it.
 
Poco,
. Your spiritual heart is beating with the rhythm of an ancient drum, my friend. As Bob Dylan sang: “You don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows”

. Even Toto knew what a tornado was, and he didn’t even go to school. Learned all he needed to know from chewin’ on a bone… 😉

. “Life is like a box of dogfood. Mah Mama said…”

.
Thank you Daler, needed a good laugh yet with a reaffirming kindred message.
 
Seriously though, what make you think that just because God has done something a certain way that he is forced to do it the same way again (jmcrea). Carson my history is weak but I do not remember any central power in the jewish community. Judges and profits had authority from God as far as I can tell and not many others. The RCC no longer have full authority. I am not saying your church has no authority just not absolute authority. Pocohombre I believe once true always true depending on what kind of truth you are talking about. The reason I add the caveat is that people believe things to be true when they are not but as a society we do not always use truth as an absolute which is the way it should be used. It is just easier to use words like truth and knowledge or something like more straight these terms have gained a wider range of use but in doing so they have also diminished their meaning. Maybe explain what ORAR means I could not find it on newadvent so I am assuming it’s an uncommon phrase.
:coffeeread:
 
Seriously though, what make you think that just because God has done something a certain way that he is forced to do it the same way again (jmcrea).
The first Covenant was signified by raising Adam to life out of the dust on the ground.

The second Covenant was signified by saving 8 people from a world-wide flood, and giving them the rainbow.

The third Covenant was signified by God coming to Abraham and showing him many signs and wonders, and with the mark of the circumcision.

The fourth Covenant was signified in the miracles that happened at the time of the Passover, when Israel was released by God from slavery in Egypt.

It was renewed in the time of Elijah, again with miracles and signs.

It was passed to the Catholic Church by Jesus Christ, our Creator, who came to earth in his human nature, established His Church, became the Passover Sacrifice (thus fulfilling and ending the Covenant with Moses)

Miracles continue to be manifested in the Catholic Church, even today.
Carson my history is weak but I do not remember any central power in the jewish community.
Abraham? Moses? David? Solomon? Elijah? 🤷
The RCC no longer have full authority.
When was it taken away, to whom was it given, and by what sign can we know this to be true?
 
=Protestor;11466572]Just because God gives authority to a group does not mean that they keep it forever. Case and point Jews. :coffeeread:
EXCEPT when Christ makes that commitment:thumbsup:

John 17:14-20
I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world.** I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.**
Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. ** [THIS MEANS JUST WHAT IT SAYS: WITG GOD OWM UNERRING POWERS AND AUTHORITY:D] ** And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [means Christ gives HIMSELF as PERSONAL warranty of ALL Teachings on Faith & Morals] ** And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;**

AND Mt.28: 19-20 [exclusively and directly to the Apostles and Successors only]

Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:** and behold I am with you **all days, even to the consummation of the world" Amen:thumbsup:.
 
Carson my history is weak but I do not remember any central power in the jewish community. Judges and profits had authority from God as far as I can tell and not many others. The RCC no longer have full authority. I am not saying your church has no authority just not absolute authority.
So, you suggest that at one time the Catholic Church did have full authority? Great! You are correct. 👍

When and why did this change?
 
On the contrary, Poco has met a man that is Truth Personified. This man, God the Son, left us His Spirit and His word. What He says is Truth and He backed it up by raising from the dead. The is none like Him, and anyone trying to steal His sheep won’t be looked on kindly by the Shepherd.

Again, I say, if the Creator says that there is one foundation, one Truth. and one name by which we must be saved… you must allow that as a possibility at the very least, yes?
Kilska,
. My friend in Christ, I have met that Man also, and found that “He Who created this Man” is above men like you or me or Poco or the Pope or anyone. Please do not misunderstand me, nor my intentions here, but something prompts us, you know, to sometimes make a response according to whatever it is that we perceive the Spirit to be telling us.

. There is the story of the vineyard, you know, in the Bible,

Matthew 21:33-41

33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants[a] to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

. So this is what comes to mind, for me, regarding those who are proud (not expecting that God has prepared other souls to tend His vineyard) who think the vineyard is “theirs”…

.
 
Thank you Daler, needed a good laugh yet with a reaffirming kindred message.
Poco,
. You ever notice how out on the prairie every now and then God just sends in a big ole tornado and just sorta rearranges the furniture?

. He can do that, don’t cha know, and has, from time to time.

. My mama used to load us kids up in the car and head outa Dodge every time those warning sirens would blare. The town next to us got hit pretty bad when I was a kid. God’s power is awesome.

. People don’t seem to reflect Who’s in charge or whose on first, or whatever. They tend to think that they are, and they’ll tell God when He can or can’t do this or that, don’t cha know…

. A lot has happened in the world in the past hundred or two hundred years. There’s been an awful lot of furniture rearranged lately. Kinda makes ya wonder Who’s responsible and where its tellin’ us to be.

Got time for Puff the Magic Dragon? Just 4 minutes of Peter Paul and Mary…

youtube.com/watch?v=RC2tlNmz4ao

.
 
Kilska,
. My friend in Christ, I have met that Man also, and found that “He Who created this Man” is above men like you or me or Poco or the Pope or anyone. Please do not misunderstand me, nor my intentions here, but something prompts us, you know, to sometimes make a response according to whatever it is that we perceive the Spirit to be telling us.

. There is the story of the vineyard, you know, in the Bible,

Matthew 21:33-41

33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants[a] to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

. So this is what comes to mind, for me, regarding those who are proud (not expecting that God has prepared other souls to tend His vineyard) who think the vineyard is “theirs”…

.
Absolutely, the Vineyard is God’s and God’s alone. God’s only begotten Son is the heir and we are told by that heir exactly what it takes to be reunited in a full relationship with His Father. We are free to listen to Him and believe Him, or not. Once the Son came to tend the vineyard, He dictated exactly what would happen when He would be killed (and raised again), and what that means. Again, there is only One Name by which we must (must) be saved. There is one Way, and that Way is straight and narrow, and few there be that find it.
 
Absolutely, the Vineyard is God’s and God’s alone. God’s only begotten Son is the heir and we are told by that heir exactly what it takes to be reunited in a full relationship with His Father. We are free to listen to Him and believe Him, or not. Once the Son came to tend the vineyard, He dictated exactly what would happen when He would be killed (and raised again), and what that means. Again, there is only One Name by which we must (must) be saved. There is one Way, and that Way is straight and narrow, and few there be that find it.
Kliska,
. My friend, I am fully aware of what you are saying, and the interpretations that you give, having been raised with the same understanding, appreciating it fully.

. There is something else, though, which drew me over the years, away from the traditional church in which I was raised, for it became a kind of echo chamber where things were recited by rote. Meanwhile, the Indians across town were poor as dirt, freezing in the minus forty degree shacks, and left to chew on what tidbits were left after all their fifty million or so buffalo had been slaughtered and they were forced to live on little slivers of unproductive land. Meanwhile, anyone who resisted the Great White Father was butchered along with the buffalo and their offspring were rounded up and put into little boxes until they learned to say such and such and nod their heads and say I believe this and not that!

. Well some of us, dear friend, still have a pulse in our own hearts and yet see things a little differently. No offense, but the Great Spirit is not confined to a little white box of understanding. He’s bigger than a word or phrase and somehow comes to us from time to time, and there is no contradiction in that. Its kind of like the campfire, if you can’t see it, you can smell it, and its coming from over that hill cause the wind is blowin’ the smoke my way, don’t ya know.

. Now the fella all fat and content sittin’ up there on the hill might say to the little Indian, “Come here, boy, and repeat after me, and I’ll let you into white man’s heaven where you can have a seat next to me” and some of those little hungry runts are gonna run over and lap up the crumbs, while others are gonna keep followin’ their nose, don’t cha know, until they get to the fire.

. Well, this little fella followed his nose, don’t cha know, and is here to tell ya that there ‘s a great big fire burnin’ nowadays, at its the same fire that burned a long time ago, and has left many a little campfire in its trail. You may wish to say there’s no campfire in existence in all the vast prairie but the one I’m cookin’ on, but I’m gonna tell you, “By Golly, Ms Molly, my beans are plumb warm and its cause o’ this campfire over here…”

. and I’ll invite you over to my campfire (its not mine anyway, don’t cha know), and you can eat some of my beans and see if they’re warm, and do they taste good, and so forth, or you can stay where you’re toes are toasty, and all is well and good…

. but ya see, dear, I’ve toasted my toes around many a campfire, and have figured out which ones are hot and which ones are not. The hot ones all have something in common, don’t cha know. Dry wood… and I’ve found plenty of dry wood around the world, tested it out with my own matches, don’t cha know, and et many a plate o’ beans

. God bless, ya’ll

.
 
Seriously though, what make you think that just because God has done something a certain way that he is forced to do it the same way again (jmcrea). Carson my history is weak but I do not remember any central power in the jewish community. Judges and profits had authority from God as far as I can tell and not many others. The RCC no longer have full authority. I am not saying your church has no authority just not absolute authority. Pocohombre I believe once true always true depending on what kind of truth you are talking about. The reason I add the caveat is that people believe things to be true when they are not but as a society we do not always use truth as an absolute which is the way it should be used. It is just easier to use words like truth and knowledge or something like more straight these terms have gained a wider range of use but in doing so they have also diminished their meaning. Maybe explain what ORAR means I could not find it on newadvent so I am assuming it’s an uncommon phrase.
:coffeeread:
Hi Protestor. If you find ORAR anywhere I’ll die laughung cause only one person that I know of has ever used it. It piggybacks OSAS once saved always saved. So as the Catholic (and some others) understand yet deny OSAS , I say that what they apply to the individual (the need for perseverance,the ability to err,stray,even fall etc) they should apply the same challenge to their church/congregation/denomination. They won’t. It is insisted that the CC is right from day one to day1,460,000 (Bible canonization) right thru to today and tomorrow till His return. Hence ORAR…Welcome to the forum
 
]EXCEPT when Christ makes that commitment:thumbsup:
The Christ that enforces and sees thru our new covenant is the same who saw thru all the other covenants-to perfection. Is there an exception?
John 17:14-20
I have given them thy word, and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world; as I also am not of the world.** I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from evil.**
Sanctify them in truth. Thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. ** [THIS MEANS JUST WHAT IT SAYS: WITG GOD OWM UNERRING POWERS AND AUTHORITY:D] ** And for them do I sanctify myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth. [means Christ gives HIMSELF as PERSONAL warranty of ALL Teachings on Faith & Morals] ** And not for them only do I pray, but for them also who through their word shall believe in me;**
Beautiful scriptures for CC, PC,OC, the church universal. Thru “their” word I came to believe, as we all have, by any definition of succession. The proof is in the pudding. If you come to believe successfully it is thru successful succession.
AND Mt.28: 19-20 [exclusively and directly to the Apostles and Successors only]
The bible does NOT say “exclusively and successors” here. He was speaking to the eleven, the apostles who are the churches foundation per Revelations. Jesus said make disciples of all men. A disciple is one who trains to do exact same thing. Jesus did not say go and continue to make popes to transfer keys and rule over bishops/cardinals, a special priesthood to carry on the work . Where do you see this ?
Of course God gave giftings, even helpers and co-laborers, and successors as we see in Acts etc. I would not confine such Holy Spirit workings to CC definitions however.
Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:** and behold I am with you **all days, even to the consummation of the world" Amen:thumbsup:.
Yes, remember, the OP and PC consider themselves to be proof of those promises also (as does 2nd Vat.).
 
Kilska,
. My friend in Christ, I have met that Man also, and found that “He Who created this Man” is above men like you or me or Poco or the Pope or anyone. Please do not misunderstand me, nor my intentions here, but something prompts us, you know, to sometimes make a response according to whatever it is that we perceive the Spirit to be telling us.

. There is the story of the vineyard, you know, in the Bible,

Matthew 21:33-41

33 “Hear another parable. There was a master of a house who planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a winepress in it and built a tower and leased it to tenants, and went into another country. 34 When the season for fruit drew near, he sent his servants[a] to the tenants to get his fruit. 35 And the tenants took his servants and beat one, killed another, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first. And they did the same to them. 37 Finally he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the tenants saw the son, they said to themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and have his inheritance.’ 39 And they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 When therefore the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” 41 They said to him, “He will put those wretches to a miserable death and let out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him the fruits in their seasons.”

. So this is what comes to mind, for me, regarding those who are proud (not expecting that God has prepared other souls to tend His vineyard) who think the vineyard is “theirs”…

.
Jesus did say “salvation is of the Jews”. So while we see the error of Judaism, even pride etc… God still worked it to perfection for Judaism brought forth the Son of God to this Earth. Hopefully you would agree that the vineyard parable context and primary meaning is that the covenant will exchange hands from the Jews to the gentiles, in this church age. So while the carriers of truth may falter, even badly from time to time, the truth marches on if even thru a remnant. So God did not abandon any of His covenants to carry their central message - Jesus Christ Messiah. He will not abandon this current covenant of the church age till His return, though he may transfer candles from one church congregation to another, as we see in Revelations and the seven church letters.
 
Poco,
. You ever notice how out on the prairie every now and then God just sends in a big ole tornado and just sorta rearranges the furniture?

. He can do that, don’t cha know, and has, from time to time.

. My mama used to load us kids up in the car and head outa Dodge every time those warning sirens would blare. The town next to us got hit pretty bad when I was a kid. God’s power is awesome.

. People don’t seem to reflect Who’s in charge or whose on first, or whatever. They tend to think that they are, and they’ll tell God when He can or can’t do this or that, don’t cha know…

. A lot has happened in the world in the past hundred or two hundred years. There’s been an awful lot of furniture rearranged lately. Kinda makes ya wonder Who’s responsible and where its tellin’ us to be.

Got time for Puff the Magic Dragon? Just 4 minutes of Peter Paul and Mary…

youtube.com/watch?v=RC2tlNmz4ao

.
Is there a double meaning for you in the song ? I remember it well, but here is one sraightfoward if you have time
youtube.com/watch?v=6ombnqWR3eA
 
Jesus did say “salvation is of the Jews”. So while we see the error of Judaism, even pride etc… God still worked it to perfection for Judaism brought forth the Son of God to this Earth. Hopefully you would agree that the vineyard parable context and primary meaning is that the covenant will exchange hands from the Jews to the gentiles, in this church age. So while the carriers of truth may falter, even badly from time to time, the truth marches on if even thru a remnant. So God did not abandon any of His covenants to carry their central message - Jesus Christ Messiah. He will not abandon this current covenant of the church age till His return, though he may transfer candles from one church congregation to another, as we see in Revelations and the seven church letters.
Poco,
The song was great. Very relaxing. As to my understanding of the parable of the vineyard, certainly the son was Jesus, whom they killed, but then it refers to when the “owner” of the vineyard comes, who will cast out the tenants who have tended the vineyard for “themselves”. So they are being forewarned that they shall suffer a miserable (spiritual) death, as false custodians of the vineyards.

. In my way of looking at history, from the time of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus onward, there are always a host of characters who step in to take control, and God appears to let them, in this world, have control of the garden, for it is the domain of the Serpent, whom they serve, though outwardly they appear to serve God. It happened with Islam also, as the Ummayyads seized the reigns if authority from Ali, the rightful Successor appointed by Muhammad, and they were the Beast foretold in Revelation, who ruled for 1260 years, until the coming of the Bab, Whom they also killed.

. Then the Owner of the Vineyard came, and history has been unfolding very quickly ever since, as the tenants (rulers) have been getting tossed on a regular basis for the past hundred and fifty years or so. The world as it was known for thousands of years is hardly recognizable, but it isn’t finished by any stretch, although hopefully there will soon be little room left for the bad guys to hide. And the ones who remain in charge have been changing their masks as fast as they can, trying to keep up.
.
 
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