second question for our non-catholic brethern

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Randy Carson yes when they were still the universal church or faith. Do not take full authority as being authority over details of faith that do not matter.

Jmcrea ok just as an example I did a quick skim of the end of joshua and beginning of judges this is what I found. Moses had central power or authority and passed it on to Joshua he had central power or authority then the elders at the time of his death were given authority not so central and they were not given authority over everything. After their deaths no authority. Then God gives authority to judges. You see how this is not working in your favor or do I have to point it out? The whole OT is pretty much the same story over and over again God gives authority man messes it up usually one or two generations down the line and then it gets passed to someone else. Does the mosaic law reign as the authority yes but laws can be interpreted in many ways and man has a tendency to add superfluous things.

PJM I am not sure if you think that changing the color of your argument makes it stronger or easier to understand but it does not. Second just because you (put things in parenthesis does not mean that I had to inte)rpret something the same way. Even bible commentators do not normally do what you are doing “bible quote(what I think it means) bible quote” and it holds no weight in my book. So I guess God breaks his commitments and Christ does not(this is not what I think you are saying but definitely how I could interpret it). I think you are missing the point of John 17:20 -21 he is not only giving the disciples authority and unity with the father but he is also giving this to all christians.That is at least how i interpret it. These blessings are for the church as a whole not just the disciples.

May you bless God
 
Isaiah45_9 said:
ORAR is “to pray” in Spanish.
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Thankyou .I needed that good laugh -never noticed that.Reminds me of a beautiful Christian sister. Johnny Erickson Tada. Tada is her husbands last name. She has a radio ministry for paraplegics ( she is one herself,confined to a wheel chair the last 35 years-diving accident when young) sweet spirit. Anyways, when you hear her name it may sound like Joihnny Eric Sentada, which of course sentada means one who is sitting.
 
This is the first time the RCC tried to claim ineffable authority on dogma. Ineffabilis Deus apostolic constitution issued by Pope Pius IX. Everything else pretty much is open to interpretation. So my question for you is when did the church ever have absolute authority? At least when claiming things that are not important for getting into heaven. When did the church use it’s authority correctly: the judaizers, the arians, the palagians include the semi-palagians, the apollinarians, the adoptionists, the gnostics,the sabellians, ect.
 
daler said:
Kliska,
. My friend, I am fully aware of what you are saying, and the interpretations that you give, having been raised with the same understanding, appreciating it fully.

. There is something else, though, which drew me over the years, away from the traditional church in which I was raised, for it became a kind of echo chamber where things were recited by rote. Meanwhile, the Indians across town were poor as dirt, freezing in the minus forty degree shacks, and left to chew on what tidbits were left after all their fifty million or so buffalo had been slaughtered and they were forced to live on little slivers of unproductive land. Meanwhile, anyone who resisted the Great White Father was butchered along with the buffalo and their offspring were rounded up and put into little boxes until they learned to say such and such and nod their heads and say I believe this and not that!

. Well some of us, dear friend, still have a pulse in our own hearts and yet see things a little differently. No offense, but the Great Spirit is not confined to a little white box of understanding. He’s bigger than a word or phrase and somehow comes to us from time to time, and there is no contradiction in that. Its kind of like the campfire, if you can’t see it, you can smell it, and its coming from over that hill cause the wind is blowin’ the smoke my way, don’t ya know.

. Now the fella all fat and content sittin’ up there on the hill might say to the little Indian, “Come here, boy, and repeat after me, and I’ll let you into white man’s heaven where you can have a seat next to me” and some of those little hungry runts are gonna run over and lap up the crumbs, while others are gonna keep followin’ their nose, don’t cha know, until they get to the fire.

. Well, this little fella followed his nose, don’t cha know, and is here to tell ya that there ‘s a great big fire burnin’ nowadays, at its the same fire that burned a long time ago, and has left many a little campfire in its trail. You may wish to say there’s no campfire in existence in all the vast prairie but the one I’m cookin’ on, but I’m gonna tell you, “By Golly, Ms Molly, my beans are plumb warm and its cause o’ this campfire over here…”

. and I’ll invite you over to my campfire (its not mine anyway, don’t cha know), and you can eat some of my beans and see if they’re warm, and do they taste good, and so forth, or you can stay where you’re toes are toasty, and all is well and good…

. but ya see, dear, I’ve toasted my toes around many a campfire, and have figured out which ones are hot and which ones are not. The hot ones all have something in common, don’t cha know. Dry wood… and I’ve found plenty of dry wood around the world, tested it out with my own matches, don’t cha know, and et many a plate o’ beans

. God bless, ya’ll

.
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I have no doubt that the Creator of all deals with humans in the light of their own understanding; however, when Truth shows up and gently corrects the path, then it behooves those who love the Truth to follow it. If I come upon someone who is trying to plant a garden and they know nothing of fertilizer, or what plants do well in what climate, or how to manage the land, etc… and I give the information on how to tend it in the most efficient, productive and holistic manner possible. It becomes their responsibility to believe me or not. I’ve offered the truth, and if they ignore it and their land dies from overuse, abuse, misuse, etc… that is to their detriment.

All humans have knowledge of the divine, and when Jesus came to clarify and to offer Himself, after that point it is up to us to believe the Truth and put it into practice or not. Once enlightened we cannot claim ignorance. God picked a people and they were responsible for spreading the Truth so that all could benefit. To spurn the Truth is to disrespect the Creator Himself. He’s told us Himself how to have a full relationship with Him.
 
Kliska said:
I have no doubt that the Creator of all deals with humans in the light of their own understanding; however, when Truth shows up and gently corrects the path, then it behooves those who love the Truth to follow it. If I come upon someone who is trying to plant a garden and they know nothing of fertilizer, or what plants do well in what climate, or how to manage the land, etc… and I give the information on how to tend it in the most efficient, productive and holistic manner possible. It becomes their responsibility to believe me or not. I’ve offered the truth, and if they ignore it and their land dies from overuse, abuse, misuse, etc… that is to their detriment.

All humans have knowledge of the divine, and when Jesus came to clarify and to offer Himself, after that point it is up to us to believe the Truth and put it into practice or not. Once enlightened we cannot claim ignorance. God picked a people and they were responsible for spreading the Truth so that all could benefit. To spurn the Truth is to disrespect the Creator Himself. He’s told us Himself how to have a full relationship with Him.
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👍
 
Protestor said:
Randy Carson yes when they were still the universal church or faith. Do not take full authority as being authority over details of faith that do not matter.
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What are the “details of faith” that do matter, Protestor? And how do we know?
 
PRmerger if you mean that I accept the current version of the bible because of manuscript evidence then kinda. If you add bibles not written in greek and letters from the EFCs that contain quotes from the bible then yes. I accept that the catholic church was critical to the NT. Do I think that the bible is whole, accurate to the originals and inspired by God, yes. Do I think that the Bible is all those things just because the RCC says so, no. Not that you do not accept manuscript evidence as strengthening to the RCC claim, but for you the claim can stand on it’s own (basically, this is purely a hypothetical proposition I know that it is also a big T).
 
pocohombre said:
Thankyou .I needed that good laugh -never noticed that.Reminds me of a beautiful Christian sister. Johnny Erickson Tada. Tada is her husbands last name. She has a radio ministry for paraplegics ( she is one herself,confined to a wheel chair the last 35 years-diving accident when young)
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😦

Like Charles Krauthammer.
 
Protestor said:
PRmerger if you mean that I accept the current version of the bible because of manuscript evidence then kinda. If you add bibles not written in greek and letters from the EFCs that contain quotes from the bible then yes.
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I think the point was that the Church selected which books belong in the bible and which do not.

Of course, many Easterners like myself would be quick to point out that the decision did not belong specifically to the Roman Church.
 
I mean that the amount of manuscripts available gives validity to the idea that what we read now is 99.ish% accurate to the originals. In phys .995~=1 good enough for me even though it also means that approximately 690 words could be wrong or 39 verses or 1.3 chapters.
If you do not know what manuscripts are or want to know more about them I found this for you newadvent.org/cathen/09627a.htm
 
But how do you know that, say, Hebrews, is the inspired Word of God? Who told you?
And who told that person? And who told that person?

The answer is: the Catholic Church told you.

You would not know it any other way.
 
The books of sacred scripture are sacred because they were the only books that were transmitted by God as it were from hand to hand.
 
You are not entitled to claiming that the sacred scriptures are sacred because of tradition because no where in tradition is such a thing said or even inferred. I could be wrong; if so please show me the quotes.
You may say that the sacred scriptures were “preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession”.
 
Protestor said:
The books of sacred scripture are sacred because they were the only books that were transmitted by God as it were from hand to hand.
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Protestor, could you please use the little “quote” icon at the bottom right corner of the post to which you are responding? It allows dialogue to flow a bit better.

Anyway, the above does not answer my question. How do we know that Hebrews is sacred?

Please answer that question.
 
daler said:
Code: 
In my way of looking at history, from the time of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus onward, there are always a host of characters who step in to take control, and God appears to let them, in this world, have control of the garden, for it is the domain of the Serpent, whom they serve, though outwardly they appear to serve God.
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Yes a host of characters were bad. But were not the covenant(s) successful ? Christ did not come out of Budhism, Hinduism, Shinto ism and any other ism except Judaism, right ? God was always in control then right ?
It happened with Islam also, as the Ummayyads seized the reigns if authority from Ali, the rightful Successor appointed by Muhammad, and they were the Beast foretold in Revelation, who ruled for 1260 years, until the coming of the Bab, Whom they also killed.
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Not sure ,was it not 1260 days in Rev ? Anyways, somethings have dual fulfilments, that the beast is yet to come even again according to your view ? Do we have another 1260 years to go ?

.
Then the Owner of the Vineyard came, and history has been unfolding very quickly ever since, as the tenants (rulers) have been getting tossed on a regular basis for the past hundred and fifty years or so.
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Who is the owner that has come and when ?
And the ones who remain in charge
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Who is in charge and of what? Know almost zero about Bahai.
 
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