Secret Rapture?

[ralphy]

Can you provide scripture verses that support either of the two points you quoted in my post?

1. Verses that say Jesus will return “in the clouds” for the rapture, then return again later?
2. Verses that describe the rapture as an event completely separate from the Second Coming?

If not, then the idea of a rapture prior to the second coming is not biblical.

Where is this in the bible?

The Second Coming (or even our own death) can occur at any time. We must always be prepared to meet our Lord.

Peace,
Callin

Good day to you Callin. If you will look at 1 Cor 15:51-52, and 1 Thes. 4:16-17 you will see that we meet Him in the clouds. This event “is” His second coming, just prior to the rapture. You are correct, we must be ready at all times, for we do not know when He shall return. I would like to ask you a question; how do we become prepared? He will return again,( this time His feet will touch the earth), after the tribulation period, only this time with power and might to judge the earth. Take a look at Zechariah 14:1-5, this gives you a good picture what will take place. I am pleased to see that you are into scripture, and we are able to correspond in this way. In Christian love, Ralph.

 

[Callin]

Good day to you Callin. If you will look at 1 Cor 15:51-52, and 1 Thes. 4:16-17 you will see that we meet Him in the clouds.

Yup. God seems to have a knack for coming in clouds. He even did it when communicating with Moses in Exodus 24:15-16. “And when Moses was gone up, a cloud covered the mount. And the glory of the Lord dwelt upon Sinai, covering it with a cloud”

This event “is” His second coming, just prior to the rapture.
[snip]
He will return again,( this time His feet will touch the earth), after the tribulation period, only this time with power and might to judge the earth.

Okay, so what about Matthew 13:19-20?

“For in those days shall be such tribulations as were not from the beginning of the creation which God created until now: neither shall be. And unless the Lord had shortened the days, no flesh should be saved: but, for the sake of the elect which he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”

It says God cut the tribulation short so that the righteous will be saved. But how? You said the rapture already happened before the tribulation.

You are correct, we must be ready at all times, for we do not know when He shall return. I would like to ask you a question; how do we become prepared?

2 Peter 3:14-18 sums it up nicely.

Wherefore, dearly beloved, waiting for these things, be diligent that you may be found before him unspotted and blameless in peace. And account the long suffering of our Lord, salvation: as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction. You therefore, brethren, knowing these things before, take heed, lest being led aside by the error of the unwise, you fall from your own steadfastness. But **grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. **To him be glory both now and unto the day of eternity, Amen.

He will return again,( this time His feet will touch the earth), after the tribulation period

I still don’t see where this is in the bible. Where does it say he will return twice (with one of them his feet touching the earth)? Where does it say the first return will be before the tribulation?

The only verses I can find speak of a single, final return after the tribulation.

Peace,
Callin

 

[wmscott]

Good day to you Callin. If you will look at 1 Cor 15:51-52, and 1 Thes. 4:16-17 you will see that we meet Him in the clouds. This event “is” His second coming, just prior to the rapture. You are correct, we must be ready at all times, for we do not know when He shall return. I would like to ask you a question; how do we become prepared? He will return again,( this time His feet will touch the earth), after the tribulation period, only this time with power and might to judge the earth. Take a look at Zechariah 14:1-5, this gives you a good picture what will take place. I am pleased to see that you are into scripture, and we are able to correspond in this way. In Christian love, Ralph.

Looking over your reference (Zechariah 14:1-5) to me it seems to be describing something other than a “rapture” maybe its me but i do not get the connection to the “rapture” and your reference. LINK

ZACHARIAS - Chapter 14

CHAPTER XIV.

Ver. 1. Midst. The obstinate Jews shall be destroyed. They became their own enemies. (Calmet) --- The Zealots committed the greatest excesses during the siege. (Josephus, Jewish Wars v. 1.) --- Tacitus also refers to these transactions, having written thirty volumes on the Cæsars, from Augustus to Domitian's death." (St. Jerome)

Ver. 2. I will gather, &c. This seems to be a prophecy of what was done by Antiochus, (Challoner) or of the last siege, (Worthington) by the Romans. (St. Jerome; Theodoret; Eusebius, Dem. vi. 18.) (Calmet) --- Vespasian collected numerous forces. (Josephus, Jewish Wars iii. 1.) --- Titus had six legions and many auxiliaries, Arabs, &c. (Tacitus, Hist. v.) --- Various nations composed their army. (Worthington) --- Rifled, or demolished. None was left standing. (Josephus, Jewish Wars vii. 6.; Heges. v. 49.) --- St. Jerome and others think that the city on Sion was spared, (Calmet) and 40,000 were permitted to dwell where they had a mind. (Josephus, Jewish Wars vii. 15.) --- But it is not said that they continued at Jerusalem. Half the Jews therefore perished, and those who maintained the siege found a grave in the city. (Theodoret) --- Half only denotes a considerable part, as [in] ver. 8. Those who followed our Saviour's admonition, retired before, and were safe (Calmet) at Pella, chap. x. 11. Septuagint, "the rest of my people shall not be destroyed out of the city."

Ver. 3. Shall. Septuagint, "will stand in battle array among," &c. (Greek: parataxetai en) though he will one day punish the victorious Romans. (Haydock) --- Now he fought with them as [the] Hebrew may signify. (Calmet) --- Various prodigies made this clear: (Josephus, Jewish Wars vii. 12, 16.) so that Titus would not receive the crown which was presented to him, as he looked upon himself only as the instrument employed by divine justice. (Philost. vi. 14.) --- This sense is given by St. Cyril, &c. (Calmet) --- In the days of Epiphanes, God defeated his projects. (Haydock)

Ver. 4. Olives. Here the tenth legion was stationed, (Josephus, Jewish Wars vi. 3.) on the spot where Christ had denounced this judgment, and ascended into heaven, Luke xix 41., and Acts i. 12. --- South. We cannot shew the literal accomplishment. If it regard the latter times, this must be hidden. But it suffices that some great earthquake should take place, according to most interpreters; or rather, (Calmet) the Romans removed vast quantities of earth and stone. (Josephus, Jewish Wars vi. 12.) (Grotius) --- Olivet has three tops; the southern one is the lowest. But whether this was caused by an earthquake we know not. The rocks are said to split, &c., when God displays his power and affords some miraculous assistance, Psalm xvii. 8., and Isaias xxiv. 8., and Habacuc iii. 10.

Ver. 5. Flee. Whle the siege was forming many escaped, according to Josephus. Hebrew, Septuagint, &c., "The vale of my mountain shall be filled up, for," &c. (Calmet) --- Yet Protestants agree with us. (Haydock) --- Those should be "my." (Ribera) (Menochius) --- The next. Protestants and Septuagint, "reach unto Azal." (Haydock) --- You shall. Septuagint, &c., "and it shall be filled, as it was filled at the earthquake," &c. (Calmet) --- The Romans had to raise many works in the vale of Cedron, so that the trees all round were cut down, and the garden walls removed thither. (Josephus, Jewish Wars vi. 4, 14.) --- Ozias, when he attempted to offer incense. (Josephus, Antiquities ix. 11.) (Amos i. 1., and 4 Kings xv. 15.) --- Yet the earthquake is not specified in the sacred historical books. (Worthington) --- On that occasion, the people retired into the vale formed by the separation of Olivet; or, if we follow the Septuagint, part of that mountain fell into the valley of Cedron, which we find nowhere else specified. (Calmet) --- With him. Protestants, "thee." (Haydock) --- God is attended by his angels; though the Romans may be called his saints, or people destined to execute his decrees in this war, Isaias xiii. 3., and Sophonias i. 7., and Deuteronomy xxxiii. 3., and Joel iii. 1. (Calmet)

 

[ralphy]

Looking over your reference (Zechariah 14:1-5) to me it seems to be describing something other than a “rapture” maybe its me but i do not get the connection to the “rapture” and your reference. LINK

ZACHARIAS - Chapter 14

CHAPTER XIV.

Ver. 1. Midst. The obstinate Jews shall be destroyed. They became their own enemies. (Calmet) --- The Zealots committed the greatest excesses during the siege. (Josephus, Jewish Wars v. 1.) --- Tacitus also refers to these transactions, having written thirty volumes on the Cæsars, from Augustus to Domitian's death." (St. Jerome)

Ver. 2. I will gather, &c. This seems to be a prophecy of what was done by Antiochus, (Challoner) or of the last siege, (Worthington) by the Romans. (St. Jerome; Theodoret; Eusebius, Dem. vi. 18.) (Calmet) --- Vespasian collected numerous forces. (Josephus, Jewish Wars iii. 1.) --- Titus had six legions and many auxiliaries, Arabs, &c. (Tacitus, Hist. v.) --- Various nations composed their army. (Worthington) --- Rifled, or demolished. None was left standing. (Josephus, Jewish Wars vii. 6.; Heges. v. 49.) --- St. Jerome and others think that the city on Sion was spared, (Calmet) and 40,000 were permitted to dwell where they had a mind. (Josephus, Jewish Wars vii. 15.) --- But it is not said that they continued at Jerusalem. Half the Jews therefore perished, and those who maintained the siege found a grave in the city. (Theodoret) --- Half only denotes a considerable part, as [in] ver. 8. Those who followed our Saviour's admonition, retired before, and were safe (Calmet) at Pella, chap. x. 11. Septuagint, "the rest of my people shall not be destroyed out of the city."

Ver. 3. Shall. Septuagint, "will stand in battle array among," &c. (Greek: parataxetai en) though he will one day punish the victorious Romans. (Haydock) --- Now he fought with them as [the] Hebrew may signify. (Calmet) --- Various prodigies made this clear: (Josephus, Jewish Wars vii. 12, 16.) so that Titus would not receive the crown which was presented to him, as he looked upon himself only as the instrument employed by divine justice. (Philost. vi. 14.) --- This sense is given by St. Cyril, &c. (Calmet) --- In the days of Epiphanes, God defeated his projects. (Haydock)

Ver. 4. Olives. Here the tenth legion was stationed, (Josephus, Jewish Wars vi. 3.) on the spot where Christ had denounced this judgment, and ascended into heaven, Luke xix 41., and Acts i. 12. --- South. We cannot shew the literal accomplishment. If it regard the latter times, this must be hidden. But it suffices that some great earthquake should take place, according to most interpreters; or rather, (Calmet) the Romans removed vast quantities of earth and stone. (Josephus, Jewish Wars vi. 12.) (Grotius) --- Olivet has three tops; the southern one is the lowest. But whether this was caused by an earthquake we know not. The rocks are said to split, &c., when God displays his power and affords some miraculous assistance, Psalm xvii. 8., and Isaias xxiv. 8., and Habacuc iii. 10.

Ver. 5. Flee. Whle the siege was forming many escaped, according to Josephus. Hebrew, Septuagint, &c., "The vale of my mountain shall be filled up, for," &c. (Calmet) --- Yet Protestants agree with us. (Haydock) --- Those should be "my." (Ribera) (Menochius) --- The next. Protestants and Septuagint, "reach unto Azal." (Haydock) --- You shall. Septuagint, &c., "and it shall be filled, as it was filled at the earthquake," &c. (Calmet) --- The Romans had to raise many works in the vale of Cedron, so that the trees all round were cut down, and the garden walls removed thither. (Josephus, Jewish Wars vi. 4, 14.) --- Ozias, when he attempted to offer incense. (Josephus, Antiquities ix. 11.) (Amos i. 1., and 4 Kings xv. 15.) --- Yet the earthquake is not specified in the sacred historical books. (Worthington) --- On that occasion, the people retired into the vale formed by the separation of Olivet; or, if we follow the Septuagint, part of that mountain fell into the valley of Cedron, which we find nowhere else specified. (Calmet) --- With him. Protestants, "thee." (Haydock) --- God is attended by his angels; though the Romans may be called his saints, or people destined to execute his decrees in this war, Isaias xiii. 3., and Sophonias i. 7., and Deuteronomy xxxiii. 3., and Joel iii. 1. (Calmet)

Hello again. Zechariah chapter does not describe the rapture. I believe I indicated in my quote from Zechariah that the Lord would come to earth (His third coming). It might be advisable to read the whole 14th chapter. In christian love, Ralph.

 

[wmscott]

Hello again. Zechariah chapter does not describe the rapture. I believe I indicated in my quote from Zechariah that the Lord would come to earth (His third coming). It might be advisable to read the whole 14th chapter. In christian love, Ralph.

I have read it three times over; I do not see where you get that there is a third coming of the Lord. May be you can explain how you come by this “interpretation”. Because in the link I provided you to the Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary that breaks it down and explains what Zechariah chapter 14 is talking about, it has nothing to do with what you are suggesting.

Also the NAB footnotes provides this explanation - 1 [1-21] An apocalyptic description of the day of the Lord, in which Jerusalem, the figure of God’s elect, after much suffering (siege: Zechariah 14:1-3; riot: Zechariah 14:13; plague: Zechariah 14:12, 15), is rescued by the Lord (Zechariah 14:4-5) and given great blessings (Zechariah 14:6-11, 14, 16-21).

So my question is what are you citing to come by a third coming other than your own personal interpretation of sacred scripture?

 

[brb3]

Catholics do not believe in the rapture. You are correct, at the end of time Jesus will come and there will be a final judgement for all mankind. The current rapture theory was developed about 150 years ago by a Protestant in Great Britan and some people still believe it today.

Speak for yourself … many Catholics take the scriptures at face value, not doubting the words of Christ on the topic.

 

[brb3]

Can I assume then that the scriptural quotes use to show that the “rapture” will occur as stated in the Bible have been inserted into scripture about 150 yrs ago, or have they been there since day one.

Thank you Ralphy

As if the Catholics haven’t proposed some new dogma of their own in the last 150 years … like denying the rapture for example, and other matters

 

[wmscott]

Speak for yourself … many Catholics take the scriptures at face value, not doubting the words of Christ on the topic.

Agreed, RSV CE 1 Thessalonians 4:15–17

15 For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

I am having trouble locating the Scripture references that detail a “Third Coming” as indicated by ralphy.