Secular article on Latin Mass

  • Thread starter Thread starter VociMike
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
And that’s sad, at least about the singing. However, given the choice, I wouldn’t attend a Mass in Latin if one were available in my native tongue. Why would I (for reasons I’ve listed innumberable times)? Now, if I found myself at World Youth Day or an international conference, or the Holy See, obviously, I’d go to Mass, in any other language including Latin (though I’ve noted most Masses out of the Holy See seem to be in Italian, which I actually and pleasantly am able to make out, due to the fact that I’m pretty fair in Spanish). But why would I otherwise?
Because Latin happens to be the language of the Church, and the language of the Liturgy for 1500+ years. Because Latin is more pure then any vulgar tongue. Because it glorifies God. Because it enhances the Mystery of the sacrifice of the Altar. Because it’s use defies the very basis of modernism.
 
But I’d bet the vernacular Mass is here to stay. Most people don’t want an abusive or innovative Mass, but I bet most people want Mass in their own language. That is, of course, my subjective opinion. I’ve no way to prove it.
I think (and hope) you’re right. I have a hard enough time getting my kids to pay attention and sit still in mass when it’s in the vernacular. I would totally loose them in a Latin mass. I’d probably have a really hard time paying attention and feeling like I was getting anything out of it, too.
 
Because Latin happens to be the language of the Church, and the language of the Liturgy for 1500+ years. Because Latin is more pure then any vulgar tongue. Because it glorifies God. Because it enhances the Mystery of the sacrifice of the Altar. Because it’s use defies the very basis of modernism.
All of which is merely subjective opinion (esp. the bit about purity and glorifying God), except the FACT that Latin happens to be the official language of the Church and that it was the standard language of the liturgy for 1500 years (and even that’s not hard and fast, it was allowed in the vernacular in certain places). But, of course, you’re entitled to your subjective opinion.
 
Perhaps because Latin was a UNIFYING force. One could go anywhere on the face of the Earth and participate. Kirk, we get a lot of French tourists here in south Louisiana. Now, I don’t speak French although I am of French ancestry. OK, just how much participation do my French confreres have when they come to Mass at my cathedral parish? They STAND during the Consecration which is their norm not ours. If this was 1960 we would all be on the same sheet of music, so to speak. Latin was a unifying force.
 
Because Latin happens to be the language of the Church, and the language of the Liturgy for 1500+ years. Because Latin is more pure then any vulgar tongue. Because it glorifies God. Because it enhances the Mystery of the sacrifice of the Altar. Because it’s use defies the very basis of modernism.
I really don’t see how Latin is any more special than any other language. How does it glorify God any more than English, or any other language? The only mystery it would enhance is the mystery of most of us asking “What in the world is that guy saying up there!!!” And “How in the heck do I pronouce this word? And what on God’s Holy Earth am I saying now???”
 
I think (and hope) you’re right. I have a hard enough time getting my kids to pay attention and sit still in mass when it’s in the vernacular. I would totally loose them in a Latin mass. I’d probably have a really hard time paying attention and feeling like I was getting anything out of it, too.
If it came to it, it would be a “vote with your feet” thing, within a parish. Most Catholics will try a Latin Mass (I have), some will stay, most will want the vernacular (again, in my subjective opinion).
 
The only mystery it would enhance is the mystery of most of us asking “What in the world is that guy saying up there!!!” And “How in the heck do I pronouce this word? And what on God’s Holy Earth am I saying now???”
It is not that hard, go to a '62 Mass for about a month and you have it down good.

What is so wrong with having to do some spiritual homework?
 
What is so wrong with having to do some spiritual homework?
WHEN!!!

While I’m at my 50 hour a week work? Doing cooking and cleaning and laundry for hubby and 4 young kids? Running them around to different activities? Before or after taking care of my handicapped mother in law? Before or after teaching CCD?

Come live my life for a few weeks, and then tell me about learning a new language.
 
Come live my life for a few weeks, and then tell me about learning a new language.
You don’t actually have to learn Latin, just assisting at a Latin Mass and following along in a missal will get you able to know what is going on.
 
Ok. Sorry my earlier post was so cranky. I’ve got the Sunday night blues. I don’t want to go back to work tomorrow, and I’m in a lousy mood. I’ve still got four kids to get ready for school tomorrow, too. Laundry isn’t folded. Dishes are dirty. Husband just had surgury the other day and is in no shape to help. And I’m just sitting here feeling overwhelmed and depressed.😦
 
Perhaps because Latin was a UNIFYING force. One could go anywhere on the face of the Earth and participate. Kirk, we get a lot of French tourists here in south Louisiana. Now, I don’t speak French although I am of French ancestry. OK, just how much participation do my French confreres have when they come to Mass at my cathedral parish? They STAND during the Consecration which is their norm not ours. If this was 1960 we would all be on the same sheet of music, so to speak. Latin was a unifying force.
I know too many people, Bro, who grew up then (quite old NOW, one’s from Germany) who are glad of the vernacular Mass. AND I don’t think it’s going to fly, unless the Pope forces it. Do you think he will, in the face of the opposition of bishops and a big chunk of the laity, on this, an issue that doesn’t touch on faith and morals in its substance? I think the Holy Father is way too smart for that. He’ll take the middle course, freeing up the TLM and tightening up on the Novus Ordo’s rubrics, but allowing the vernacular (which he himself called “helpful”) to continue. Then your French visitors will be able to attend the Latin Mass when they come to LA.
 
It is a great article. I am glad the author gets it. It was also interesting to me because Mr. Gushee is an Episcopal clergyman and I am an ex-Episcopalian.
 
I know too many people, Bro, who grew up then (quite old NOW, one’s from Germany) who are glad of the vernacular Mass. AND I don’t think it’s going to fly, unless the Pope forces it. Do you think he will, in the face of the opposition of bishops and a big chunk of the laity, on this, an issue that doesn’t touch on faith and morals in its substance? I think the Holy Father is way too smart for that. He’ll take the middle course, freeing up the TLM and tightening up on the Novus Ordo’s rubrics, but allowing the vernacular (which he himself called “helpful”) to continue. Then your French visitors will be able to attend the Latin Mass when they come to LA.
These bishops who oppose the universal indult and the TLM are largely the same ones who are afraid of anything that might appear the least bit orthodox (such as the liberal european clergy, such as the german bishops who wanted to do away with exorcisms). And the laity who oppose the TLM are also nominally the same ones who like the idea of married priests, and womenpriests, and putting social justice ahead of the sacraments- modernists and liberals.

I think the indult might actualy be a way to purge the Church of these heretical elements. Cut off the finger to save the hand.
 
These bishops who oppose the universal indult and the TLM are largely the same ones who are afraid of anything that might appear the least bit orthodox (such as the liberal european clergy, such as the german bishops who wanted to do away with exorcisms). And the laity who oppose the TLM are also nominally the same ones who like the idea of married priests, and womenpriests, and putting social justice ahead of the sacraments- modernists and liberals.

I think the indult might actualy be a way to purge the Church of these heretical elements. Cut off the finger to save the hand.
Who’s opposing the TLM? I assume under the Indult, we’ll still have the vernacular Mass? I’ve no reason to oppose the TLM. I realize, sadly, that some bishops HAVE, but there’s no reason for them to do so, either. Never was one. However, if three people up in Tonapah (Nevada) want the TLM, I’m not entirely certain that our bishop, an orthodox man, becomes unorthodox for not complying. Very few attend the schismatic chapel here, for example, and another group (sedevacanteist) only hung around for a month before they went belly up.

And I quite agree about the married priests and women priests. Trouble is, you’ve confused the two. The former is a matter of discipline (and itself a good discipline, in my subjective opinion) while the latter is a matter of correct matter, thus a matter of faith and morals. One can academically think that the Church might come to a place where they ordain married men, one might even think they SHOULD, and yet remain a perfectly orthodox Catholic. One cannot do the same with the latter.

That’s why it’s best to let the magisterium of the Church decide who’s a heretic and who’s not.
 
Who’s opposing the TLM? I assume under the Indult, we’ll still have the vernacular Mass? I’ve no reason to oppose the TLM. I realize, sadly, that some bishops HAVE, but there’s no reason for them to do so, either. Never was one. However, if three people up in Tonapah (Nevada) want the TLM, I’m not entirely certain that our bishop, an orthodox man, becomes unorthodox for not complying. Very few attend the schismatic chapel here, for example, and another group (sedevacanteist) only hung around for a month before they went belly up.
The local schismatic chapel and the sedes of the area are not good gauges for the support of traditionalism. One does not need to be sedevacantist or schismatic to be a traditonal and orthodox Catholic.
And I quite agree about the married priests and women priests. Trouble is, you’ve confused the two. The former is a matter of discipline (and itself a good discipline, in my subjective opinion) while the latter is a matter of correct matter, thus a matter of faith and morals. One can academically think that the Church might come to a place where they ordain married men, one might even think they SHOULD, and yet remain a perfectly orthodox Catholic. One cannot do the same with the latter.
I was merely refering to the fact (and yes, it is a fact) that in many cases support of married priests and women priests go hand-in-hand. That one is a discipline and the other is doctrine doesnt matter when it comes to what people want to believe.
 
The local schismatic chapel and the sedes of the area are not good gauges for the support of traditionalism. One does not need to be sedevacantist or schismatic to be a traditonal and orthodox Catholic.
**Whew! Glad to hear it, as a traditional and orthodox Catholic, I’m relieved (of course, as the Pope said, the name Catholic should be sufficient). Nonetheless, I don’t hear a lot of calls for the TLM or for more Latin, except here in these forums. And yes, I still think the Indult should be honored and expanded. **

I was merely refering to the fact (and yes, it is a fact) that in many cases support of married priests and women priests go hand-in-hand. That one is a discipline and the other is doctrine doesnt matter when it comes to what people want to believe.
**"And the laity who oppose the TLM are also nominally the same ones who like the idea of married priests, and womenpriests, and putting social justice ahead of the sacraments- modernists and liberals.

I think the indult might actualy be a way to purge the Church of these heretical elements. Cut off the finger to save the hand."**

Sorry, to me it sounded like you had lumped in those who have a legitimate opinion on married clergy (legitimate provided they don’t foment dissent and rebellion) in with others. My mistake.
 
but I bet most people want Mass in their own language
It doesn’t matter what they want!!!

At least…it didn’t used to…

The hierarchy is giving in to much to popular opinion…

No, I don’t think it’s going to happen (at least not anytime soon), but if the Church mandates Mass in Latin, the people have a choice: they can go to Mass, or go to Hell. Quite literally.

It should not matter what the people want, those who would skip mass if it was only ever in latin obviously don’t have a proper obedient disposition anyway, and are probably already damned, if you only are going to mass because it is in the vernacular, but wouldn’t go if it was in latin (it would be required under pain of mortal sin anyway) you are already on the edge of the cliff.
 
It doesn’t matter what they want!!!

At least…it didn’t used to…

The hierarchy is giving in to much to popular opinion…

No, I don’t think it’s going to happen (at least not anytime soon), but if the Church mandates Mass in Latin, the people have a choice: they can go to Mass, or go to Hell. Quite literally.

It should not matter what the people want, those who would skip mass if it was only ever in latin obviously don’t have a proper obedient disposition anyway, and are probably already damned, if you only are going to mass because it is in the vernacular, but wouldn’t go if it was in latin (it would be required under pain of mortal sin anyway) you are already on the edge of the cliff.
Indeed! 👍
 
It doesn’t matter what they want!!!

At least…it didn’t used to…

The hierarchy is giving in to much to popular opinion…

No, I don’t think it’s going to happen (at least not anytime soon), but if the Church mandates Mass in Latin, the people have a choice: they can go to Mass, or go to Hell. Quite literally.

It should not matter what the people want, those who would skip mass if it was only ever in latin obviously don’t have a proper obedient disposition anyway, and are probably already damned, if you only are going to mass because it is in the vernacular, but wouldn’t go if it was in latin (it would be required under pain of mortal sin anyway) you are already on the edge of the cliff.
Make no mistake, if the only Mass was in Latin, I’d go, as I was bound to go. I’m talking about a situation where there’s both Latin and vernacular masses in a parish. Some will go to the Latin Mass, but I bet that the bulk will go to the vernacular. This will be noted, ie., given the choice, I think the people will want to go to the vernacular Mass. I’m not talking about a formal poll.

But here’s a thing: the Church exists for the salvation of souls. That’s the only reason she exists, to save and be saved. The shepherds (the good shepherds, anyway) KNOW, more or less, what their sheep can bear and they don’t put burdens on them that they don’t HAVE to put on them, for the good of their souls. Latin is a moral neutral, the Church can have it or not have it, as she thinks prudent. I think that prudentially, the pope knows this and he and his successors (of which Bishop Fellay won’t be one, even if he sees the error of his ways and comes home), will not ask the sheep to go on a path that isn’t absolutely necessary to their salvation.

The hierarchy (and in this, I’m talking about the pope) is patently NOT giving into popular opinion, otherwise Joanie Chichester would be a priest.

They can go to Latin Mass or go to hell? Again, if you’re discerning whether or not you’re called to be one of the shepherds, I urge you to tell your ordinary that this is your firm belief. And the pope, be sure and write the Holy Father. Give him your name and address.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top