Secular Carmelites and those curious

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FCEGM:
It also seems that CP proponents put little - if any - attention on the virtues and asceticism in approaching prayer, or that the depth of our prayer is reflected in the virtues that flow from it.
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My thoughts exactly. From the little I’ve read of CP, it always struck me as that it operates in a kind of vacuum . . . divorced from the very points you mention.

When I think of St. Teresa’s description of the 7 mansions in Interior Castle, my impression of CP is that it trys to jump right to the 4th mansion (where contemplative prayer begins) . . . bypassing all that preceeds it. I think this - along with the other posts about “emptying” - makes CP a bit incompatible with the Carmelite tradition.

The Carmelites show that contemplation is a “way of life” which is based and sustained on the very points you mention in your post. Sometimes I think CP leads people to believe that contemplation is something you “do” for your 20 minutes per day. Again, this is a big point of differentation with the Carmelite tradition.

I know from your previous posts you are a very experienced Carmelite . . . I’m new (just an aspirant). So I write mostly for the others here who are just starting out like me.

At one point CP had an appeal to me and I was sure I saw many similarities with the teachings of Carmel. But the more I read the Saints and the more I try to live the Rule, the more I see that any similarities that might exist are superficial at best. So based purely on my own experience it doesn’t suprise me at all that CP would come up as a topic on this thread.
 
Dear Mtr01,

You mentioned a point I saw elsewhere, too, that Father Dubay is negative on centering prayer. I have not read “Fire Within” where you saw this reference, so I would very much appreciate it if you could share it with us here, without too much re-typing.

Jenlyn,

You also mentioned that you are also reading this book, so if you have come across this particular point, and see this post first, may I impose on you to share it?

Incidentally, I missed your question about whether everyone is called to contemplation, until just this morning. St. Teresa, who was writing to her sisters in the cloister, said that the majority manage to enter these mansions (referring to the 5th in Interior Castle). Remembering the people for whom she wrote, I would say that for a committed christian dedicated to a life of prayer and practicing virtue, - yes, even for those outside the walls of the cloister.

But for the others who are of the type in the first mansion, and do not strive to go any further - no. The world and its pleasures holds too much attraction for them and they fail to make serious efforts to advance.

In Jn. 14:21, although the exact quote is not handy, I recall Jesus promising that if “anyone” loves Him and keeps His commandments, He will manifest Himself to that person. Although it may not be a gift as great as the prayer of quiet, I believe He meant those words. Jesus is so loving and gracious that the person will experience some type of blessing from Christ, according to their own preparedness to receive it.
 
Joysong said:
Dear Mtr01,

You mentioned a point I saw elsewhere, too, that Father Dubay is negative on centering prayer. I have not read “Fire Within” where you saw this reference, so I would very much appreciate it if you could share it with us here, without too much re-typing.
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Joy, in Fire Within Fr. Dubay makes passing reference to centering prayer but nothing strongly negative. I believe, though, that in his later book Prayer Primer he writes more at length about it. I’ve only yet read a review which you can find here:

catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0303revw.asp

Here are some critiques of centering prayer FYI:

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=234

dotm.org/ctrprayjonnette.htm

dotm.org/centerprayer.htm
 
Dear Fran,

I just love the way all the pieces finally come together, don’ t you?
Augustine provided a link by Jan Wakelin to “Centering Prayer Meets the Vatican” by Dan DeCelles, Part I, but it did not have Part II.

Bless you, for you sent it in your third link! I was so happy to read it, and I thank you for coming to the rescue, saving the other folks a lot of typing.

I have to admit these authors’ writings confirms my previous misgivings about C.P. Enough said. Anyone who views the links may come to their own conclusions without our having to spoil this thread by debating it.

Your Carmelite sister,
Carole
 
Joysong said:
Dear Mtr01,

You mentioned a point I saw elsewhere, too, that Father Dubay is negative on centering prayer. I have not read “Fire Within” where you saw this reference, so I would very much appreciate it if you could share it with us here, without too much re-typing.
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Hi Joy,

Sorry I don’t have my copy with me at the moment, but when I get a chance I will certainly provide a few excerpts concerning his views on how centering prayer relates to infused contemplation as related by both Sts. John and Teresa.

In the most basic of terms, Fr. Dubay equates centering prayer with various other “techniques” to obtain contemplation (mostly eastern such as transcendtal meditation or Buddhist forms of meditation). I think DBT’s post above is a pretty good summary of why Dubay thinks this is incompatible with infused contemplation.

As soon as I get a chance, though, I’ll find something more concrete from Fr. Dubay’s book. Hopefully, as Teresa mentioned above, this thread won’t get hijacked as a debate over centering prayer (as those tend to be most uncharitable). Personally, I think the saints are our best teachers, so it is informative (in my humble opinion) to see how these new forms of prayer “stack up” to the teachings of the saints.
 
I agree with all who have posted here about their concerns about this thread taking a turn for the worse by digressing to far into Centering Prayer. This thread has been WONDERFUL . . . probably one of the most charitable I’ve seen on this forum. And that’s a credit to everyone whose posted here . . . and followed along.

I wasn’t suprised when the topic of CP came up as that was a pretty big issue I had to address myself when I first starting thinking about Carmel. So far I think the discussion has been civil, taking none of the nasty turns CP threads usually take.

My gut tells me that if the discussion sticks to how CP does or does not fit the tradition of Carmel . . . rather than relying on hyped opinions and personal attacks we’ll probably be OK.

It’s a fine line though. I’m torn between the need to help those here who might be confused about CP as it does/does not relate to Carmel and the more “practical” concern that it might be best to let sleeping dogs lie.
 
I agree with all who have posted here about their concerns about this thread taking a turn for the worse by digressing to far into Centering Prayer. This thread has been WONDERFUL . . . probably one of the most charitable I’ve seen on this forum. And that’s a credit to everyone whose posted here . . . and followed along.

I wasn’t suprised when the topic of CP came up as that was a pretty big issue I had to address myself when I first starting thinking about Carmel. So far I think the discussion has been civil, taking none of the nasty turns CP threads usually take.

My gut tells me that if the discussion sticks to how CP does or does not fit the tradition of Carmel . . . rather than relying on hyped opinions and personal attacks . . . we might be OK.

It’s a fine line though. I’m torn between the need to help those here who might be confused about CP as it does/does not relate to Carmel and the more “practical” concern that it might be best to let sleeping dogs lie.
 
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mtr01:
Personally, I think the saints are our best teachers, so it is informative (in my humble opinion) to see how these new forms of prayer “stack up” to the teachings of the saints.
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If you are speaking of St John & St Teresa, they both achieved real contemplation as Mystics.

Centering Prayer is for the more advanced prayer life, but this is not necessarily those striving for full contempletion. (Sorry if I am not expressing myself well—I understood that full contemplation is so very rare, and although we can try to predispose ourself by prayer, fasting and striving for holiness, it is really not about what we do) There are so few who achieve full contemplation, that the fact that CP may not be the best road to full contemplation is hardly a reason to totally dismiss CP.

CP may not be a good method for Carmel prayer, and this is fine to say. It may not compliment the Carmel rule. I suppose it is good to learn about different prayer methods, and even try a few, but if you are called to a specific method, perhaps it is best to stick with it, and of course discuss your options with your SD.
 
I really think I heard or read that we are called to contemplation so I was starting to search on the web. I think it was a call from Vatican2 . I can be wrong about this so I was checking. While I was checking I came up on this link that defines contemplation, all the steps to it, here

newadvent.org/cathen/04324b.htm

Before I wanted to put this site on here I was scrolling through this thread. Wow, lots I need to review!

I agree that this a peaceful and very worderful thread. Thanks to everyone.:clapping:

Peace,
Jen
 
As far as I can make out, Centering Prayer focuses on just one stage of the prayer life discussed by St Teresa of Avila. Specifically, it focuses on the point where active prayer (meditatio and oratio) becomes passive prayer (contemplatio). Fr Thomas Keating is aware of the criticism that CP attempts to introduce contemplation too soon, and indeed discusses this criticism in one of his books (sorry, don’t remember exactly where).
 
To those who are aspirants or full OCDS here: how did you conclude that OCD had the charisms that fit your spiritual profile?

God bless.
 
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Augustine:
To those who are aspirants or full OCDS here: how did you conclude that OCD had the charisms that fit your spiritual profile?

God bless.
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Great question at a great point in time on this thread!

I’m a bit busy now but will try to respond as time allows.
 
On a sad note it seems that the secular order is dead in Ireland.

I have been interested in joining for many years. I have written to the National Coordinator of the Lay Apostolate twice and received no reply. I have written to many Carmelite Priests about my deep desire and again have received no acknowledgement.

I wrote to the National Carmelite Vocations Director about it and I received a response. He said he was only dealing with Religious Vocations??? I guess he meant Vocations to the Priesthood or Brotherhood.

No interest in Vocations to the secular order.

Please folks do pray about this for me as I feel maybe the Lord does not want me to join?
 
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Augustine:
To those who are aspirants or full OCDS here: how did you conclude that OCD had the charisms that fit your spiritual profile?

God bless.
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Dear Augustine

This is not an easy question. It is very personal to the aspirant concerned so I can only say what led me to Carmel.

I experienced a conversion in faith that was very complex and very profound. I had ignored my vocation for many many years for a number of reasons.

Finally it was made so plain and almost an audible call that I could no longer ignore it. I spent alot of time looking at all the orders. In the past I was very drawn to the Franciscans.

I prayed and prayed and prayed to discern that my call wasn’t ‘my desire’ or ‘something I fancied doing’ because there will be no longevity in such a vocation if it only stemmed from my desires and will. I had to discern if it was really God’s will and call.

As I explored all the Saints and orders, it was just so very evident that Carmel was my home. I was already a ‘carmel’ but without any committment to the Order. My lifestyle and prayer, worship and heart was already carmel, though I didn’t know that until I prayed and searched to find where God wanted me to be.

led by my Priest after I told him I wanted to be a Carmelite and felt God had called me there, I contacted the Sisters. I had a beautiful phone conversation with the sister and met with her soon after. I fully expected that she would ask me alot of questions and discern if I was what the Carmelite Community desired.

She asked me very very little and went straight into my formation teachings. I was astounded. Immediately I knew I was home and God made it so very easy for me…

As I write this I am quite emotional, as the saying goes, ‘you just know when you are in love’ and I knew I was in love with Carmel and this was to be my life’s path with the Lord. This is just the beginning and it is a long path, I am looking forward to all that the Lord will teach me in Carmel.

I am looking forward to hearing other’s journey to Carmel, the beautiful Mount of Mary

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
I am still discerning…:hmmm: What has called me so far this order is my deep desire to have a relationship with God. I believe that this can be done through prayer. St. Teresa is the guru on prayer so whalla I’m here! Not only am I learning about how t pray I’m learning that I must live the gospels! Yes, it takes me a while to catch on!:yup:

I love to right poetry and I have found that many of my ideas for poems have already been said by none other than St. Teresa! She is brillant, isn’t she? So I believe I think like a Carmelite, if there is a certain way to think, and learning more about it still drives my learning.

Besides, if God wants you to be a Carmelite, you will be a Carmelite, right Teresa!😃 He can be very persistent!

Peace,
Jen
 
In “Fire Within” it mentions how Ss John and Teresa are very insync with the gospels. We must live our lives as close to the gospels as possible in order to grow in prayer. How does a lay person deal with “give everything away and follow me?”

Peace,

Jen
 
Teresa,

That was a poignant witness.

Yet, forgive me if I missed in another post in this thread, it wasn’t clear whether you entertaining becoming an OCD nun or an OCDS. Can you please clarify?

How can someone tell the vocation to a religious life from that as a secular? Specifically, why join a secular order?

Sorry if I’m bordering on prying… :o

God bless.
 
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springbreeze:
Dear Augustine
As I write this I am quite emotional, as the saying goes, ‘you just know when you are in love’ and I knew I was in love with Carmel and this was to be my life’s path with the Lord. This is just the beginning and it is a long path, I am looking forward to all that the Lord will teach me in Carmel.
Teresa
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Teresa, you have such a wonderful way with words!

I was struggling a bit to answer Augustine’s question when I saw your post. There’s not much I can add to what you wrote but I would like to echo a couple of thoughts. Carmel is a call . . . a vocation . . . and it’s all about love.

Carmel’s charism is prayer . . . this is her mission for the Church. I think this is part of the appeal of Carmel to people when they sense a deepening in their own prayer life. For me, it provided an opportunity for my prayer to be more than just my own private relationship with God . . . it’s something I can GIVE to the Church.

I have no doubt in my mind I have been led here . . . but most of my reasons and explanations are to personal to share. I’ve faced many forks in the road on my way to Carmel and sometimes it absolutely amazes me I am where I am. If you would have told me 5 or 10 years ago I’d be an aspirant in Carmel I probably would have been horrified.

But using Mary as my guide, I try hard to say “Yes” to that interior call – every single day. There was a time I tried to run from the possibility of this call . . . but I was always pulled back. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t get Carmel off my mind. It was almost like there was someone there beside me saying “Come son, walk this way with me.”

I pray that my vocation is true and that I will always walk this way.
 
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Augustine:
Teresa,

That was a poignant witness.

Yet, forgive me if I missed in another post in this thread, it wasn’t clear whether you entertaining becoming an OCD nun or an OCDS. Can you please clarify?

How can someone tell the vocation to a religious life from that as a secular? Specifically, why join a secular order?

Sorry if I’m bordering on prying… :o

God bless.
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Dear Augustine

Friend, you are not being personal, there is nothing in my life that I cannot share with others because I have been taught so much by the Lord in my life of 34 years that if what I have learnt can be of use to another I am more than happy to share it.

The simple reason I cannot resently be a nun is that I have a daughter and God, the church nor I want me to leave my daughter. 🙂 .

As I only have the present my life in Carmel is as a secular, but God willing in time I will take religious Orders as an OCD when my daughter is much older and self-sufficient. This really is a blessing for me as I have the benefit of a long formation which of course we are all in formation all of our lives and are by no means the master, there is only one ‘Master’ who is Christ Jesus. Everything happens with rhymn and reason and this is good. It allows me a good knowledge of human life outside of Holy Orders which I can bring with me to Holy Orders.

This is what third orders do, they allow the support and prayers for the spirituality of the laity of the Carmelite Order. In turn the richness and diversity of the laity enrich Carmel in the third orders.

You can always be sure that you are exactly where God would have you be if you join your will to His. There is always that still calm voice of God within you that leaves you with His peace even when He is ‘telling you off’.

You know because you are at peace with yourself, with humanity and with God. God never disturbs, God nevers frightens, He is peace. You know you are where you should be because in Him you find peace a peace that nothing else despite all searching, can bring in this world.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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