Secular Carmelites and those curious

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springbreeze:
I have truly come to believe that there is no greater prayer (other than Holy Mass), than the quiet exchange of love between the Beloved and the lover.
I think that you’re on the same page as St. Teresa of Avila on this, not a bad company at all! 👍

But I have to confess that I’m a brute who’s got to force myself into prayer, when formulas are a big help. 😉

God bless you.
 
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Augustine:
I think that you’re on the same page as St. Teresa of Avila on this, not a bad company at all! 👍

But I have to confess that I’m a brute who’s got to force myself into prayer, when formulas are a big help. 😉

God bless you.
Dearest Augustine

It is just a habit to be formed. Perseverance and discipline in all things of God, He does not leave the worker to work alone!!! He comes to aid the worker.

Trust.

You and your wife remain in my prayers and heart

God bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
I am in the middle of “Fire Within” and came upon this. St. Teresa’s principles of growth in prayer.
  1. Do God’s will from moment to moment throughout the day
  2. Anyone can pray
  3. Give your all to God, whom you love
  4. Purifications of faults
  5. Do penance
  6. A receptive readiness, growth is determined by readiness and
    gererosity.
  7. Falling back in prayer can happen because of laziness, being
    too comfortable and too confident
  8. growth in prayer correlates with virtue
  9. determination
Peace,
Jen
 
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Jenlyn:
I am in the middle of “Fire Within” and came upon this. St. Teresa’s principles of growth in prayer.
  1. Do God’s will from moment to moment throughout the day
  2. Anyone can pray
  3. Give your all to God, whom you love
  4. Purifications of faults
  5. Do penance
  6. A receptive readiness, growth is determined by readiness and
    gererosity.
  7. Falling back in prayer can happen because of laziness, being
    too comfortable and too confident
  8. growth in prayer correlates with virtue
  9. determination
Peace,
Jen
Dearest Jen

The conceited sinner is nothing but a delusional fool!

To constantly reflect upon the state of one’s soul is to realise how bereft it is of Divinity and how much it falls short of our Lord. But, even then in pity upon the soul that works, the Lord looks in all mercy upon this soul and lifts it even above what it station is qualified of, He raises the sinner to a state where it is not worthy of because His Mercy and Love is so far beyond what we imagine.

The toil that the soul makes despite it’s sins is never left unaided. That soul who strives and perseveres in the only single moment it possesses is granted graces because the intent is recognised above the concupiscence. In this and the Eucharist is only what saves any soul from hell.

Gift after gift after gift from the Almighty, for the soul that is willing to work

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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springbreeze:
This quiet prayer of trust where the heart and mind are raised in silence and pure Love receives love and is a pure flight and exchange of love, a Love that could almost make us die from the receipt of it.
Dear Teresa,

How does one go about this? I have this idea from somewhere that emptying our mind is not good. Probably because other methods empty the mind and we are to fill our mind with God. So help me to understand so I can do this! 😃

Peace,
Jen
 
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Jenlyn:
Dear Teresa,

How does one go about this? I have this idea from somewhere that emptying our mind is not good. Probably because other methods empty the mind and we are to fill our mind with God. So help me to understand so I can do this! 😃

Peace,
Jen
Dear friend

An empty mind is not a human being! Our minds are constantly full of thoughts , it is impossible to quiet the mind.

I have seen Joysong (Carole) post wisely on this thread about the prayer of recollection, where God calls a soul to Himself during the day to remember Him and at times we also remember God, this is a growth that calls us to be constantly in the Presence of God, until such a point is reached where we exist in constant recollection without one calling the other as we live in Divine Presence throught this habit and practice which He calls us to over and over and we raise ourself to God over and over until it is second nature.

In Consolation we are given God’s love and it is the keeping of this prayer that is the greatest prayer and this is only practised by habit of raising love and not purely expecting Love in return. We are so accustomed to wanting receipt that we forget to give. First we must begin daily to raise our hearts as we do in Holy Mass ’ (Priest) ‘Lift up your hearts’ (R) ‘We lift up our hearts’ The constant raising of our hearts is a TRUST by which we receive Love, we must not forget it was by our pride and hardness of heart that we fell from God’s grace, therefore time must be spent in sorrow and raising of the heart to God that we may then have Him dwell within our hearts and meet with Him there.

Persevere in offering and God will not let the worker work unaided.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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springbreeze:
. This quiet prayer of trust where the heart and mind are raised in silence and pure Love receives love and is a pure flight and exchange of love,
Just to be clear this is not quieting/silencing the mind by getting rid of thoughts to focus on what God may say to us. I have read that we must quiet and listen. How does one do that when we don’t empty our minds? I have always struggled to understand this to the point where I don’t do it for fear of doing it wrong. 🙂

Peace,
Jen
 
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Jenlyn:
Just to be clear this is not quieting/silencing the mind by getting rid of thoughts to focus on what God may say to us. I have read that we must quiet and listen. How does one do that when we don’t empty our minds? I have always struggled to understand this to the point where I don’t do it for fear of doing it wrong. 🙂

Peace,
Jen
Dear friend

First of all you must understand that God knows you are a busy creature of His, who has things to do and other people to care for. He knows that thoughts stream through you head, He infact knows each and every thought you have, now that is not a source for worry as He also knows the thoughts the enemy places in your mind (the spiritual battle is one of the mind and heart to deter the soul).

Now you know as I know that when you sit in conversation with a friend you sit silent at some point and listen to your friend, they talk, you talk and they talk and you talk, that is how communication works. Sometimes within a marriage or with a very very good friend it is possible to share a happy silence, in each others company happy to be so, but not actually speaking words, but in this silence you do commune by your very Presence with each other. Thoughts may come to mind but they are brushed aside and dear friend, once God works on the worker, you have no thought to call to mind, but of His Love in your heart and to respond with your love which is by no means adequate but His Almighty seems happy to receive this inadequate love.

It is through frequent recollection of each other that this is attainable you call to mind and heart your Beloved and He then calls you to His mind and heart and this in repetition, brings forth this flow and flight of Love, which is by no means a fair exchange for His Love is greater and ours is but a little still His Almighty Beloved bathes in it. He really does ask so little of His creatures, so why we view it as so much is a mystery.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
As moderns we expect things to happen in our time, we must remember God has His time table and it may be different than ours. Ours is to ask His is to respond be persistant it may take years…but in the end it is the journey, not just the destination as we in our fallen nature are lead to believe.

Your Brother in Carmel Leo
 
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springbreeze:
Dear friend

God Bless you! I love this thread, the fellowship here is peaceful and beautiful.

I have for some time been wondering about the fact of so many isolated Carmelites and it has occurred to me that there should be a support network for those isolated; whereby they can have some form of contact with other isolated Carmelite’s. This would be of great support and inspiration.

What do you think of this? I may ask the Sister in charge of my formation about this. I think if people found that isolation would no longer be a difficulty, there may be more people drawn to Carmel and less likely to fall away because of isolation.
Dear Teresa,

I think your idea is a good one; certainly through the internet those Carmelites living separated from a Community can (and do) find support. Of course nothing can fully replace the intimacy and formation found in the personal contact of the monthly meeting of a Community and that will always be the norm and ideal for those called to Carmel.

On another note, I’ve recently been re-reading and meditating on Fr. Anastasius Ballestrero’s , (Fr. Anastasius of the Holy Rosary, O.C.D.), beautiful book The Theological Virtues In the Spiritual Life; it was published by the Darlington Carmel in England. If you have not read this I hope you can find a copy for your spiritual enrichment.

Your sister in Carmel,
Frances
 
Dear Jen,

I responded to your concern about “emptying the mind” in the Centering Prayer thread, since it deals more with that topic than with the Order of Secular Carmelites.

What St. Teresa advocates is using our mind, rather than going about in a state of absorption. When God suspends our mental faculties, He does not “empty” them, but fills them with Himself. Until then, we must use our sanctified reason and intellect, and draw water from our own wells in one of the many ways she mentioned of drawing it.

Drawing water denotes a sort of “filling” rather than “emptying” - do you see? Apparently, she was deceived by certain writings, by not fully understanding the terminology, and not having someone to advise her otherwise.

I note, along with her, that she does not condemn these authors, but speaks about her own personal experiences as taught her by the Lord.

May you find the light you are seeking, and as always, feel free to ask more questions as they arise.

Your friend in Christ,
Carole
 
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Joysong:
Dear Jen,

I responded to your concern about “emptying the mind” in the Centering Prayer thread, since it deals more with that topic than with the Order of Secular Carmelites.

What St. Teresa advocates is using our mind, rather than going about in a state of absorption. When God suspends our mental faculties, He does not “empty” them, but fills them with Himself. Until then, we must use our sanctified reason and intellect, and draw water from our own wells in one of the many ways she mentioned of drawing it.

Drawing water denotes a sort of “filling” rather than “emptying” - do you see?
Your friend in Christ,
Carole
Thank you, once again. 🙂

The prayer of quiet comes from God, right? I must bring the water to the well until God takes over. Then and only then can I sit at the feet at Jesus and listen. Am I close?

Peace,
Jen
 
Hello, Jen,
The prayer of quiet comes from God, right? I must bring the water to the well until God takes over. Then and only then can I sit at the feet at Jesus and listen. Am I close?
My insensitivity, sorry. I took for granted that you were familiar with descriptions she gave of the different ways of drawing water (prayer) in the writing of her Life.

She advised, that since we are not angels who contemplate God continually, we must do the labor of meditation. Sometimes after lowering the bucket we bring up only a few drops, which nevertheless quenches our thirst. Other times, the water flows quite abundantly and we carry a sweet nosegay of remembrance with us throughout the day.

Yes, the Prayer of Quiet is supernatural prayer, and God may bestow it while we are meditating, praying, or simply being attentive to Him. St. Teresa said there were times when she was actively engaged in some work and received this gift, whereby she was able to become both Mary and Martha — meaning, that being in prayer is not always the condition for His bestowing this grace.

You mentioned “And then can I sit at the feet of Jesus and listen?”
When this gift is granted, you just love and delight in Him. You don’t “listen” for that is not the time for it. Listening is a part of meditation, which is has now ceased, for the goal of meditating – to know and love the Lord – is now in your spirit, and the Lord is experienced and tasted, so to speak.

The difficulty I have, and which St. Teresa wrote about, is that some believe (wrongly) that if they just empty their minds and put away any aids to prayer, it will bring them to contemplation. Somewhere in her writings, I can’t remember the place, she said that her mistake was to go about for days in this “state of absorption” expecting to receive visitation from God. When she received this grace during employment of her duties, she said she saw how little this had to do with it.

The Centering Prayer promoters cite the writings of St. John of the Cross as sound proof for their spiritual methodology. How very wrong they are!!! St. John specifically states three conditions to those who are well-advanced in prayer, before they can safely abandon the work of meditation and begin the work of contemplation. All three are necessary. If one of them ceases (habitual attentiveness to God), he suggests they begin meditation again to regain it, but only temporarily.

On the other hand, he greatly laments the wrong advice given by inept spiritual advisors who don’t recognize when this readiness for contemplation is being granted by God, and they pound away telling the conferee to stay with meditation.

So you see, it is important for those in charge of souls to know where they are spiritually. There is no formula that fits everyone exactly, but it must be discerned. This is a problem I found when I attended a C.P. workshop many years ago. Not recognizing the differences in spiritual advancement for those in attendance, the presenter gave blanket encouragement to empty the mind to eveyone in the room, which included those who were spiritual babes! They will wreak havoc in their advancement to God, if anyone of these follows their format.
 
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Leo44:
As moderns we expect things to happen in our time, we must remember God has His time table and it may be different than ours. Ours is to ask His is to respond be persistant it may take years…but in the end it is the journey, not just the destination as we in our fallen nature are lead to believe.

Your Brother in Carmel Leo
Dear Leo

How right you are! The more I am taught by the Almighty, the more I realise I am not aware of and do not know, nor can I possibly fathom His mercy or all of His ways.

This life is a constant work to strive in the perfect Christ Jesus, so that in, by and through Him and in His great Mercy we may be able to share in His life of Eternity.

When we think we have achieved, we have achieved nothing at all and must constantly contemplate and reflect in order to merely glimpse, His Divinity and the glory of His Beloved Almighty.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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Joysong:
Hello, Jen,

My insensitivity, sorry. I took for granted that you were familiar with descriptions she gave of the different ways of drawing water (prayer) in the writing of her Life.

She advised, that since we are not angels who contemplate God continually, we must do the labor of meditation. Sometimes after lowering the bucket we bring up only a few drops, which nevertheless quenches our thirst. Other times, the water flows quite abundantly and we carry a sweet nosegay of remembrance with us throughout the day.

Yes, the Prayer of Quiet is supernatural prayer, and God may bestow it while we are meditating, praying, or simply being attentive to Him. St. Teresa said there were times when she was actively engaged in some work and received this gift, whereby she was able to become both Mary and Martha — meaning, that being in prayer is not always the condition for His bestowing this grace.

You mentioned “And then can I sit at the feet of Jesus and listen?”
When this gift is granted, you just love and delight in Him. You don’t “listen” for that is not the time for it. Listening is a part of meditation, which is has now ceased, for the goal of meditating – to know and love the Lord – is now in your spirit, and the Lord is experienced and tasted, so to speak.

The difficulty I have, and which St. Teresa wrote about, is that some believe (wrongly) that if they just empty their minds and put away any aids to prayer, it will bring them to contemplation. Somewhere in her writings, I can’t remember the place, she said that her mistake was to go about for days in this “state of absorption” expecting to receive visitation from God. When she received this grace during employment of her duties, she said she saw how little this had to do with it.

The Centering Prayer promoters cite the writings of St. John of the Cross as sound proof for their spiritual methodology. How very wrong they are!!! St. John specifically states three conditions to those who are well-advanced in prayer, before they can safely abandon the work of meditation and begin the work of contemplation. All three are necessary. If one of them ceases (habitual attentiveness to God), he suggests they begin meditation again to regain it, but only temporarily.

On the other hand, he greatly laments the wrong advice given by inept spiritual advisors who don’t recognize when this readiness for contemplation is being granted by God, and they pound away telling the conferee to stay with meditation.

So you see, it is important for those in charge of souls to know where they are spiritually. There is no formula that fits everyone exactly, but it must be discerned. This is a problem I found when I attended a C.P. workshop many years ago. Not recognizing the differences in spiritual advancement for those in attendance, the presenter gave blanket encouragement to empty the mind to eveyone in the room, which included those who were spiritual babes! They will wreak havoc in their advancement to God, if anyone of these follows their format.
Dear Carole

You are a genius in writing such succinct and informative posts in such a way that seeps into people’s hearts. Thank you.

I agree with everything you say here. I don’t totally admonish CP as it is a good way to calm the mind in preparation for prayer , but in itself it is not prayer. I know others will disagree with me when I say that and I am happy to agree to differ and do not wish to start a debate on this particular topic.

Prayer is a lifting of the mind , heart and spirit to God, therefore the mind MUST NOT be empty. It is not humanly possible to not ‘think’, we are built to reflect and memory serves reflection as we look back over our lives and that of Christ. Indeed we also look to the present and to the future. If we did not look to the future we would merely be striving in this life for nothing, but we strive and work in Christ Jesus for Eternal life and therefore work in this life for the future of all humanity and ourselves.

I am not surprised St Teresa of Avila was called in this gift during work as the Carmelite Rule is to live constantly in the Presence of God and all things are prayer. In this God’s love and beauty permeates all things.

I will not list any of my personal experiences as nothing is done by me, it is all a gift from the Almighty and I often wonder how generous and kind He is to souls that sin. I am constantly humbled by this and wonder why it does require so little work from the sinner to be deigned with so much love from the Almighty. Why when He sees the worker try, He Himself works and eases the burden of the work? Why when we are not even needed by Him He lowers His Majestic Self to enter into our hearts?

Sorry I was just thinking outloud there 🙂

You and your family remain in my prayers.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you Carole and those you love

Teresa
 
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Joysong:
There is no formula that fits everyone exactly, but it must be discerned. This is a problem I found when I attended a C.P. workshop many years ago. Not recognizing the differences in spiritual advancement for those in attendance, the presenter gave blanket encouragement to empty the mind to eveyone in the room, which included those who were spiritual babes! They will wreak havoc in their advancement to God, if anyone of these follows their format.
It also seems that CP proponents put little - if any - attention on the virtues and asceticism in approaching prayer, or that the depth of our prayer is reflected in the virtues that flow from it.
 
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FCEGM:
Code:
                                                               .... the depth of our prayer is reflected in the virtues that flow from it.
My pastor stressed this exact point in a magnificent homily on sin last week…especially sins of omission.

He said that if our lives don’t show God, we’re in deep trouble.

He also reminded us that if our prayers don’t lead us to a deeper love of God through an always increasing love for our brothers and sisters, we need to go to confession more often.

Maria
 
Dear Teresa,
Prayer is a lifting of the mind , heart and spirit to God, therefore the mind MUST NOT be empty.
How beautiful! My soul soared as I read these words, and I could write a few pages of remembrances that they inspired!

You are so right, Teresa, and as I reflected on this, I can appreciate why Father Dubay is negative on C.P., though I have not read his book to know the reason. All I can say is that St. John of the Cross expected that one of the signs that absolutely needs to be present before one can abandon meditation, is the habitual remembrance and attentiveness to God. Obviously, not an empty mind! However, that new stage of contemplation is experienced rather darkly, but indeed the mind is full - it is attentive to God. And St. John is writing to “proficients” - those who lived virtuous lives for many a year, as Frances so kindly reminded us.

I sometimes am amused by those who write in asking about prayer dryness after a couple years of conversion, and receive answers from spiritual advisors such as, “Oh, you are just experiencing the Dark Night of the Soul!” Another example of people not understanding spirituality and giving bad advice just because they read the book. That writing was also directed to proficients, and it would be a terrible mistake to tell a fairly new, but serious-minded christian, that their problems are due to the Dark Night. Arggh!
I am not surprised St Teresa of Avila was called in this gift during work as the Carmelite Rule is to live constantly in the Presence of God and all things are prayer. In this God’s love and beauty permeates all things.
Yes, I believe God raised her up specifically to counteract the errors of those times that the Quietists and Illuminati were spreading. She mentioned in “Third Spiritual Alphabet” that she puzzled over the author’s words, “thinking of nothing.” I was fortunate to obtain a copy of this very book so I could discover her insights. However, it was not necessary, for she is such an able, godly teacher of Truth! We are so blessed to have her writings at our fingertips, for in her day, there was no such thing as a printing press.

May the peace and joy of Christ always abide with you!

Carole
 
Here is a question for the wonderful people on this thread.

What do you do when you have meditated on a topic, say a mystery from the rosary and you go dry? You can not come up with any more ways to look at it. Do you keep meditating with the same ideas over and over again? Is this the best thing for us to do?

Peace,
Jenlyn
 
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Jenlyn:
Here is a question for the wonderful people on this thread.

What do you do when you have meditated on a topic, say a mystery from the rosary and you go dry? You can not come up with any more ways to look at it. Do you keep meditating with the same ideas over and over again? Is this the best thing for us to do?
Jen, I think that’s the time to place oneself more deeply in God’s Presence in the midst of the Mystery. Clear thoughts about the Mystery won’t come, but deeper love will. Let the Mystery “surround” you without particular attention to the “detail” of it.
 
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