Secular Carmelites and those curious

[Leo44]

If I can be the arbitor here I feel a misunderstanding has taken place between two people who love GOD and love OCDS.

The evil one is lurking about trying to drive a wedge between people of good faith, he wants to disrupt our growth in holyness, he is an expert in confusion and division and finds great joy when he can cause division. This division will cause people to shut down and not participate, with great loss to all and to his delight. There is much to be gained here and we will all be richer for everyone’s in put. Sooooo lets all pray for a charitable spirit.

Your Brother in Carmel,
Leo

 

[Teresa9]

Leo44:

If I can be the arbitor here I feel a misunderstanding has taken place between two people who love GOD and love OCDS.

The evil one is lurking about trying to drive a wedge between people of good faith, he wants to disrupt our growth in holyness, he is an expert in confusion and division and finds great joy when he can cause division. This division will cause people to shut down and not participate, with great loss to all and to his delight. There is much to be gained here and we will all be richer for everyone’s in put. Sooooo lets all pray for a charitable spirit.

Your Brother in Carmel,
Leo

Dear friend

Wise and intuitive words. You are right. I am sorry Carole. Let’s start afresh and work together in Christ.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Jenlyn]

Teresa,

I have read “The Way of Perfection.” Interior Castle," and am reading “Life” in that order. In the “Interior Castle” I have found it not to my benefit to go beyond where I am spiritually. So I have not gone very far in it. I picked up her “Life” because she references it many times in “Interior Castle.” I have found it to be much simpler to read. She has about 8 chapters or so that talk very specifically about the different steps in prayer. This may help you clear some things up. I know it has helped me.

Peace,
Jen

 

[Teresa9]

Dear friends

Why do people interpret that my little knowledge of terminology is a reflection on a lack or lesser development of spirituality. You know I had great hopes for this board and now I do not.

Sorry, on good advice, I will not be participating any further.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[drforjc]

Why do people interpret that my little knowledge of terminology is a reflection on a lack or lesser development of spirituality.

Dear Teresa, I’m not seeing anyone belittling your spiritual development. Please continue to post your reflections- many of us have found them interesting and helpful.

 

[Jenlyn]

I found these two sites from the other Carmelite thread.

This is the web site for the Carmelite order in England:

carmelite.org/laycarmel/index.htm

This is a site by a Carmelite, I think, Priest by the name of Larkin. He is from England as well. I think it says that you can find this link from the link stated above. He has many articles for Carmelites to read. Happy reading!

carmelnet.org/larkin/larkin.htm

Jen

 

[1_Maria]

Teresa9:

Dear friends

Why do people interpret that my little knowledge of terminology is a reflection on a lack or lesser development of spirituality. You know I had great hopes for this board and now I do not.

Sorry, on good advice, I will not be participating any further.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Holiness does not depend on ‘knowing’ the correct terminology. It depends on how much we love God and our neighbor.

“As I have loved you, so also must you love one another.”

Your love for God and for all of us is apparent.

Maria

 

[Leo44]

Teresa,
We’ll all miss you, a difference of opinion is not always an argument, and a question is a request for information not a critique. We are all a work in progress be patient.

Your Brother in Carmel, Leo

 

[DBT]

I just got back in town . . . glad to see this thread is still alive. Teresa, I do hope you plan to stick around

Perhaps this will be a slightly different slant on this thread. As I mentioned earlier, I’ve become an aspirant so I’m pretty much a newbie. Here’s a few observations I’ve learned about Carmel so far:

1. I’ve come to see the “call” as a two-way street. It’s not enough for me to feel that I’m at home in Carmel . . . the community must feel the same.
2. There is a definite wisdom to the discernment process as I see it so far. A call will be evaluated, in large part, to daily fidelity to living the Rule . . . perserverance. The formation process is long (6 years?) so I’m sure there will be ample opportunity to test this virtue!
3. There is a very strong focus on family in the discernment process. Great effort is made to determine if your spouse is supportive of the call. From what I’ve read so far, a call must even be set aside if there is a serious conflict with your primary vocation . . . that of a married person. Fortunately, my wife is very understanding and this whole process has done much to help me as husband and father.
4. I’ve lived parts of the Rule on my own for a little more than a year, but there is tremendous worth in doing it as part of a community. No longer is this just “God and me” - this is something I can do FOR the Church.
5. The Rule provides a wonderful “rhythm” to daily living. All aspects of life are lived against a backdrop of prayer. I’m beginning to see what is meant by praying without ceasing and that this is something that can be done by people in all states of life. Brother Lawrence has become a wonderful role model for me in this regard.
6. The writings of the Carmelite saints can truely take a lifetime to “absorb.” Their wisdom is meant to be lived rather than just read.
7. In my few meetings with my local community, it’s apparent that many Seculars have their personal “favorite” Saint. My readings so far have been focused on St. Teresa, St. John, St. Therese and Brother Lawrence. I have to say that I’m particularily drawn to St. Teresa . . . I’ve had many “a-ha” moments with her that have greatly clairified what’s going on in my own prayer life. St. John right now is, well, a little “Dark” for me

Anyway, enough ramblings. Hopefully this has helped anyone who might be thinking about the Carmelites in particular or a Secular Order in general.

 

[Teresa9]

Dear friends

I must aplogise to all of you. I apologise because this thread is not about me, it is about everyone and everyone is valid and is of benefit to everyone else. I am deeply in love with the Carmelite spirituality and as such desperately want to understand all of the terms and their meanings, I sometimes get exasperated at myself, I live the Carmelite rule and charisms, but I am new to the terminology, so please forgive me if you would be so very gracious to me.

I am keeping this thread and those who post here in my prayers and would invite you all to do the same. I am prone to being emotional and this is evident. I apologise also if my emotional responses lack discernment. I am also very sensitive …these are some of my blessings and my crosses

Thank you for all of you who posted kind words to me when I really did not deserve them. I promise to learn here in the spirit of humility in future and ask all of you to exercise great patience when it comes to me. Look upon me as your carmelite cross!!

I am eager to learn and looking forward to reading all of your posts, if you would be so very gracious as to forgive my emotional sensitive outburst in this thread. Now that is enough about me.

God Bless you all and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Leo44]

DBT
You are correct, as a Carmelite we are formed as a commumity not as individuals.

Fr. A. Deeney gave a talk on the new consitutions at the Las Vegas Congress this past summer, I think you can get copies of it from St. Joseph Communications. www.saintjoe.com or 800-526-2151, very informative on so many things.

Teresa,

I would sugguest it for you as well as he has much to say about the discernment proscess with regard to the community and the duty of the Council with regard to new members.

Your Brother in Carmel Leo

 

[Jenlyn]

Is it possible that we can talk about prayer in the way that St. Teresa explains it in her books? I find it fasinating and also overwhelming at the same time. I want to make sure I understand her correctly. There are times when she in vague.

I want to know if I am understanding the first stage correctly. This is what I know. It is the stage of self-knowledge. It is an important stage. This stage must be done correctly to avoid problems later on with the devil. I do know that the devil will try to confuse and tempt in the other stages but if I understand who I am, self-knowledge, I have a better chance of dealing with him. This stage is also focused on the humility of Christ and comparing it to myself. The word recollection is used alot. Is it examing myself and my sins, my debt to God?

The second stage is the Prayer of Quiet. The only thing I know is that God lifts the soul to a quiet place. This cannot be over rationalized by the intellect. It is were the will is suspended and is reveled things.

Can anyone help me understand these two better?

Jen

 

[Teresa9]

Dearest DBT

Thank you for your beautiful, inspiring and insightful post. I hope you don’t mind I have just responded to some of your points.

1) I’ve come to see the “call” …etc

Yes I feel the same, if in a person who aspires to Carmel, the community is not ‘seeing’ Carmel spirituality in them, they may still have a calling to serve God in a third order, but not necessarily Carmel.

2) There is a definite wisdom to the discernment process as I see it so far. etc …

DBT you are right , The perseverance and the test of if you are to endure in a Carmelite order is if you were living the ‘spirit’ of Carmel and loved it prior to your first meeting with the person who deals with your formation as a Carmelite. We have to totally fall in love with it and recognise an echo of ourselves in the charisms just as we can read the psalms in Sacred Scripture and it echos the emotions we feel and the things we deal with and go through in life. Then it is a matter of faith, that if it is God’s will, though we may be a little afraid , God will sustain us exactly where He wants us to be and to keep praying for this everyday.

3) There is a very strong focus on family in the discernment process. etc

Deepening spirituality in particular charisms has to be something that is for the benefit of all around them, not a source of division and angst. I recently spoke with my spiritual director in respect of family committments and attending formation meetings, she said when my family calls me to duty, that is my prayer , I knew this in my heart, one should not conflict against the other, but I needed her to say it to me and I needed her to understand that I was not losing committment, presently I am receiving formation by telephone and letter as I have to travel out of my county quite some distance to meet with her this is a short term measure during a busy time in my family and financial reasons.

4) I’ve lived parts of the Rule on my own for a little more than a year, but etc…

I feel the same here also. My calling came long ago and I ignored it. I underwent a conversion in faith about a year or so ago and since that I have been pondering whether to join a third order. My Priest advised me to do so and I have. I was very frightened and waited to discern along time and prayed and prayed before I finally did this. Is God calling me to do this for myself? no, He calls us to do this firstly for Him, we are called to serve in love, secondly for all of His children/all humanity and that of course includes His church for the body of Christ (it is an inspiration to others when a committment to spirituality and faith is seen and observed in others, we all strengthen each others faiths), thirdly so we grow in Christ and this is the part that God gifts to us in love.

cont.

 

[Teresa9]

continuation two

5) The Rule provides a wonderful “rhythm” to daily living. etc …

Yes. If everyone is called to holiness, then this has to be achieveable whether you are employed or unemployed, sick or well, young or old, male or female, poor or rich. I have a daughter who is three years old, she lives the spirit of carmel because I raise her in it, my spiritual director has instructed me to pray with my daughter and take her to Mass with me outside of Sunday worship. I tell her when she has eaten her dinner with no fuss that she made a beautiful prayer to Jesus. I tell her when she has said her prayers that Jesus loves it and I give her a kiss from Him. I tell her when she is laughing and having a great game and a good play, she has made a beautiful prayer to Jesus. I tell her when she does a little task for me like remembering to close the door behind her that that is a beautiful prayer to Jesus etc etc. Everything we do is prayer when we do it with Jesus at the forefront of our minds and hearts in love of God and life then becomes a prayer as a constant offering of mind ,heart , spirit and life to God in love. I always remind myself that as God is with me constantly and I am never seperate from Him, every minute of my day whether waking or sleeping He is with me, then so should I be with Him, He remains constantly in my presence, I then desire to remain constantly in His and remember He is always with me.

My favourite saint is who I am named after, St Teresa of Avila.

God bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[DBT]

Jenlyn:

Is it possible that we can talk about prayer in the way that St. Teresa explains it in her books

Hi Jen -

There is a very good discussion of this in the thread on St. Teresa and Recollection. Joysong had some very good posts. Is this a good starting point? There’s probably many more here more qualified than I to get this going.

Teresa . . . thank you for your comments. I look forward to responding a bit more when I get a little more time.

 

[Joanna]

Jenlyn,

You might find this website helpful:
carmelite.com/saints/other/more_2.htm

Jenlyn:

The word recollection is used alot. Is it examing myself and my sins, my debt to God?

“Teresa calls the active prayer of recollection an excellent kind of meditation (Castle, 4, 3, 3). It is a style of meditation that locates the presence of God within the self and centers all reflection and affection on God there. (Way, 29, 7)”

Hope that helps.

God bless you,
Joanna

 

[DBT]

Jenlyn -

There is one thing I can add about Teresa and her descriptions of prayer. Often she’d write that she couldn’t practice or teach discursive meditation since she felt she couldn’t do it herself. For a long time I wondered what exactly is she talking about? Part of my problem had to do with understanding terminology . . . which can be very confusing. Here’s how I came to understand what she’s saying about this.

For the last 5 years or so I’ve been going on a 3-day silent retreat put on by the Jesuits. While these have always been wonderful experiences for the peace and serenity they create, I was always a bit frustrated by the “methods” used to teach prayer to retreatants. Basically they taught ways of mental role playing or imagining yourself in a particular Gospel scene . . . things like that.

I now see this is a type of meditation but I could NEVER get myself to be able to do that . . . so I didn’t force myself. Instead, I chose to spend my private prayer in my preferred way - at Eucharistic Adoration. I would sit quietly in His presence . . . perhaps read a little, but mostly just look at Him. This has become a daily devotion for me.

Then I came upon Teresa’s explanation of the Prayer of Recollection and it all made sense! This is exactly what she’s talking about when she discusses her inability to meditate.

It’s comforting to me to know that I have a problem in common with a Doctor of the Church Teresa was evidently never able to use her imagination in prayer in the ways I described above. Instead, she chose to gather her distracted thoughts by two simple “methods” - reading and looking at pictures of Gospel scenes rather than try to imagine them. Eventually this helped prepare her for the infused contemplation that she describes so eloquently throughout all her writings.

 

[Teresa9]

Leo44:

Teresa,

I would sugguest it for you as well as he has much to say about the discernment proscess with regard to the community and the duty of the Council with regard to new members.

Your Brother in Carmel Leo

Dear Leo

Thank you very much

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[DBT]

Leo44:

DBT
Fr. A. Deeney gave a talk on the new consitutions at the Las Vegas Congress this past summer, I think you can get copies of it from St. Joseph Communications. www.saintjoe.com or 800-526-2151, very informative on so many things.
Your Brother in Carmel Leo

Thank you Leo . . . I’ll try to track this down. The new constitutions have been a big part in my formation training thus far. I haven’t got to far into the Saints yet . . . just the study I do on my own.

DBT

 

[Joysong]

Dear Teresa,

Teresa9:

Why do people interpret that my little knowledge of terminology is a reflection on a lack or lesser development of spirituality. You know I had great hopes for this board and now I do not.

I’m having difficulty understanding how you came to this conclusion, for I did not see any posts that stated this. I responded to you over in the original thread a few minutes ago.

May I mention that the terms used by Sts. Teresa and John of the Cross are so difficult to understand that volumes have been written by many others who attempt to bring the teachings down to a layman’s grasp. Not knowing who would be reading these threads, Teresa, I did not intend my response to be directed to you, *specifically *or *personally. *Rather, it seemed a good idea for anyone reading here to embrace a common ground of understanding so it would be easy for discussion to continue.

I remember the hard time I experienced when I first tried to read these works. Like reading Greek, huh? My memory brings back certain areas of difficulty and vagueness that were later cleared up. Those were the ones I tried to share so we would all be on the same page, so to speak. There are others that may surface as we go along – like the confusing matter of “stage” of prayer and “state” of prayer. Very foggy indeed! I struggled a lot with this. Maybe others will not have to struggle so much, if we share with each other. That’s really what Carmel is all about. It’s not a secret society with the haves and have-nots in intellectual understanding. God forbid!

God’s peace and joy,
Carole