Secular Carmelites and those curious

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Fergal:
On a sad note it seems that the secular order is dead in Ireland.

I have been interested in joining for many years. I have written to the National Coordinator of the Lay Apostolate twice and received no reply. I have written to many Carmelite Priests about my deep desire and again have received no acknowledgement.

I wrote to the National Carmelite Vocations Director about it and I received a response. He said he was only dealing with Religious Vocations??? I guess he meant Vocations to the Priesthood or Brotherhood.

No interest in Vocations to the secular order.

Please folks do pray about this for me as I feel maybe the Lord does not want me to join?
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Fergal, welcome to the thread! I so sorry, though, to hear of your situation. Perhaps someone here can help you with info/contacts etc.

But please don’t be so quick to assume you have no vocation. God often places obstacles in our way to test our fidelity and resolve. Just look at what St. Therese went through to get into Carmel!

I will keep you in my prayers . . .
 
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Fergal:
On a sad note it seems that the secular order is dead in Ireland.

I have been interested in joining for many years. I have written to the National Coordinator of the Lay Apostolate twice and received no reply. I have written to many Carmelite Priests about my deep desire and again have received no acknowledgement.

I wrote to the National Carmelite Vocations Director about it and I received a response. He said he was only dealing with Religious Vocations??? I guess he meant Vocations to the Priesthood or Brotherhood.

No interest in Vocations to the secular order.

Please folks do pray about this for me as I feel maybe the Lord does not want me to join?
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Dearest Fergal

I have read many of your posts and I like them very much. You are such a gentle soul. You have endured so much in your life and still you maintain your inner peace and serenity, truly a heart after our Blessed Mother Mary.

May I ask you, are you in N.Ireland? If you are you may write to or telephone the British OCD and ask for long distance formation, which it may be possible for your Parish Priest to deal with.

I don’t want to go too far into this, but even if you are not in N.Ireland there may be some way that the Biritsh OCD can assist you in your formation.

Do get back to me, I would love to help you in any way I can to make your vocation achieveable. ( I am in the North of England UK)

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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Jenlyn:
In “Fire Within” it mentions how Ss John and Teresa are very insync with the gospels. We must live our lives as close to the gospels as possible in order to grow in prayer. How does a lay person deal with “give everything away and follow me?”

Peace,

Jen
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Dear Jen

Christian poverty is not to be left destitute and without necessities for life. Human poverty is a human creation where wealth is unfairly distributed and those who can give do not give or share with those who do not have.

Christian poverty is not to possess more than what is required for the necessities of life. Simply I cleared out everything from my life that bound me to the world and was of no real service or need to me but was truly superficial.

Some people possess a radio, a computer and a television, this can be said to be useful sometimes imperative for work purposes…but do we need 5 tv’s? do we need 2 computers? do we need endless outfits and endless pairs of shoes??? this is what we are to assess.

The answer is of course no, we do not need all of those things, but moreover it is not the possessing of the objects that can be the problem, it is the unwillingness to share them and even worse to be ‘attached’ to them so that they become our god.

The Christian must be prepared to lose and not grieve the losing, to share what we do have and to be thankful and share our blessings because it is by God’s grace we have it.

Personally I have been happy to be unshackled from my possessions and have been happy to live a simple life in a four room house that is very small and happy to not have to worry if someone would rob me because there is nothing worth taking and if they do take it I don’t care if they do.

We cannot truly follow Jesus if our first thought of the day is attaining material possessions and how much we can make to do that and no matter what the cost or who we hurt in the process. It is most damaging to the human spirit to be wrapped up in that vicious cycle, as always Jesus’ words not only serve to bring us closer to God but also serve to the advantage and the best of human happiness and peace.

There is a peace and harmony in following Christ Jesus that no human mind can accomplish nor set rules or boundaries for, that will grant a soul such peace and happiness, despite all surrounding events.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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DBT:
Carmel’s charism is prayer . . . this is her mission for the Church. I think this is part of the appeal of Carmel to people when they sense a deepening in their own prayer life. For me, it provided an opportunity for my prayer to be more than just my own private relationship with God . . . it’s something I can GIVE to the Church.

AND

But using Mary as my guide, I try hard to say “Yes” to that interior call – every single day. There was a time I tried to run from the possibility of this call . . . but I was always pulled back. No matter how hard I tried, I couldn’t get Carmel off my mind. It was almost like there was someone there beside me saying “Come son, walk this way with me.”

I pray that my vocation is true and that I will always walk this way.
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Dearest DBT

Simply beautiful!

Your thoughts here are a lesson to all. Too often we look to prayer as a way to receive a favour from God or to be consoled. Very rarely do we look to it as a way of giving; giving to God and giving to humanity and the church.

Thank you DBT, I truly liked your thoughts here. So often I wonder what I can truly DO for God and realise there is nothing at all He needs me to do for Him, He doesn’t need me at all. So what am I to be? I am to be an instrument of His love and if I do not give then what a poor instrument I am!!! How do I give His love? I can by His grace do works of mercy and charity and what is the greatest work of charity I can do? PRAY!..

Simply beautiful DBT, you made my heart happy because I have long held that prayer is the most beautiful act of LOVE.

As our Blessed Virgin Mother Mary did, we constantly reaffirm our YES everytime we PRAY

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear Jen,

Great link on contemplation! You found a treasure, all in one reading!

As for poverty, remember that when we promise to observe the rule: poverty, chastity, and obedience - it means we do this in accord with our state in life - which is secular. As such, we have family and personal obligations that take precedence over any desires we might have to embrace celibacy (if we are married) or true poverty (if we have the care of a family).

But what we can strive to do is practice the deeper virtue of detachment, which embraces poverty of spirit, so highly recommended by St. Teresa. There are very many spiritual forms of poverty that we need to embrace in order to grow in holiness.
I see puzzles in your eye. 😉

Remember in Story of a Soul, how Therese became upset when her artist brushes were not at her disposal? (I seem to remember somebody borrowed them) She was tempted to become indignant and outright impatient. Poverty of spirit would overlook the inconvenience, as she quickly realized. How about the poverty of spirit that she practiced whenever it came time for meals? She hid her personal preference for foods so well, that nobody could determine when she did or did not like something. She offered it up, accepting whatever was served to her without complaint or showing any facial expressions.

St. Teresa of Avila had a real problem with “points of honor,” which she finally overcame by the willingness to be less acceptable to others — poverty, which freed her from attachment to honors and being well thought of.

And many other examples you may have already thought of, since you also read these books.
 
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Jenlyn:
Before I wanted to put this site on here I was scrolling through this thread. Wow, lots I need to review!

I agree that this a peaceful and very worderful thread. Thanks to everyone.:clapping:

Peace,
Jen
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Dearest Jen

I re-read this entire thread regularly, there is so much on here and so much to learn by re-reading it , I find myself doing just that regularly !!!

God bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
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buzzcut:
As far as I can make out, Centering Prayer focuses on just one stage of the prayer life discussed by St Teresa of Avila. Specifically, it focuses on the point where active prayer (meditatio and oratio) becomes passive prayer (contemplatio). Fr Thomas Keating is aware of the criticism that CP attempts to introduce contemplation too soon, and indeed discusses this criticism in one of his books (sorry, don’t remember exactly where).
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Dear friend

Thank you for your information and welcome to the Carmelite thread. I hope to read more of your posts in the future

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Thank you for your warm welcome. I’ve now found the place in the book I was looking for. Someone asked Fr Keating the following:

St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa advised that one should only discontinue discursive meditation when God takes away one’s ability to practice it. How does centering prayer fit in with that tradition?

Fr Keating’s response is on page 30 of Open mind, open heart. I could easily post the whole response here, but I’m not sure about copyright laws.
 
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buzzcut:
Thank you for your warm welcome. I’ve now found the place in the book I was looking for. Someone asked Fr Keating the following:

St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa advised that one should only discontinue discursive meditation when God takes away one’s ability to practice it. How does centering prayer fit in with that tradition?

Fr Keating’s response is on page 30 of Open mind, open heart. I could easily post the whole response here, but I’m not sure about copyright laws.
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Dear Buzzcut

Go for it…If I was wise enough and had written a book for the spiritual development of humanity I would not have a problem with someone quoting pieces from it.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa
 
Dear Buzzcut,

I see that you are new to Catholic Answers, and I want to warmly welcome you and also invite you to share with us on this thread. This whole topic of copyright law was discussed at length on another website, and I have all the guidelines, but they are not on my present computer, but in my home state. From memory, though, I assure you that you are legally permitted to post short excerpts without violating this law.

May I suggest, since some of us expressed a wish to avoid a sub-topic of centering prayer here, that you begin a new thread so that it can be followed? I see many questions that already need to be answered with regard to the Carmelite vocation, and if we insert another topic such as centering prayer, it can become confusing.

There is an existing thread relating to centering prayer on the spirituality index where you can continue this, unless you have particular questions of your own that you would like to see someone answer. This way, it would not be overlooked. 🙂

Kind regards,
Carole
 
OK … it’s done (on the other thread).

Now a question for this thread.

Which book do you use for the Liturgy of the Hours? There are 1 volume and 4 volume versions and some with different titles I’m sure. Which one do you use?
 
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Joysong:
Bless you, for you sent it in your third link! I was so happy to read it, and I thank you for coming to the rescue, saving the other folks a lot of typing.

I have to admit these authors’ writings confirms my previous misgivings about C.P. Enough said. Anyone who views the links may come to their own conclusions without our having to spoil this thread by debating it.
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Dear Carole,

I was happy to provide the links; your final sentence bespeaks of the charity that must be at the heart of Carmel. 🙂

Your sister in Carmel,
Frances
 
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buzzcut:
Which book do you use for the Liturgy of the Hours? There are 1 volume and 4 volume versions and some with different titles I’m sure. Which one do you use?
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Buzz, when I first began praying the LoH I did so with the one volume; a few years later I started using the four volume set and have done so since then.

In Christ,
Frances
 
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Augustine:
To those who are aspirants or full OCDS here: how did you conclude that OCD had the charisms that fit your spiritual profile?
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Dear Augustine,

A goodly number of years ago I began to see that I am “naturally” contemplative. This was clearly illustrated to me on, of all places, a ski slope where the beauty I saw brought a yearning for the unseen Beauty beyond the apparent created beauty before me. I knew nothing, then, of the deeper supernatural contemplation to which one may be called.

A few years later a friend of mine told me of the Secular Discalced Carmelites (I’d known nothing about Third Orders - not unusual for a Catholic, sorry to say!). I was very interested because this was when I was really beginning to take my “born-Catholic” Faith truly seriously and had been desiring some further formation in the Faith, especially along the lines of prayer. I attended my first meeting and was hooked! 😃 Although I was the youngest person in attendance at that first meeting (and for several more to come!), I felt very much that I’d come home among the older people in attendance. (I’m happy to say that since that time, the Community has expanded and the members have gotten younger as I’ve gotten older! 🙂 )

What I saw and heard very much echoed what I’d “known” in my heart for sometime, thanks be to God for His tender mercies. Discovering St. Teresa, St. John of the Cross and all our other Saints and Blesseds was a true joy. In St. John of the Cross, especially, I found a sure guide and father on the way of perfection. I loved, too, the over-arching Marian aspect of the vocation which is so strong while not being simply “devotional”, if you know what I mean.

Also, the Carmelite’s love of St. Joseph very much spoke to me since he’s been a dear patron from childhood.

In Carmel,
Frances
 
Dear Augustine,

When I was serving my Community as Director of Formation I compiled these questions to help in one’s beginning (and ongoing) discernment in seeking to join the Order:
  • Do I cherish the Gospel and desire to imitate Christ?
  • Are there any impediments to my following the Rule of Life of the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites? (Family obligations; unable to receive the Sacraments)
  • Do I desire to follow the Rule with my whole heart?
  • Do I desire, and am I able, to attend the monthly meeting?
  • Do I desire, and can I commit myself, to a life of prayer in union with Christ and His Church?
  • Do I see my life of prayer as the way of bringing Christ into all aspects of my life?
  • Do I desire to grow in the self-knowledge which is humility?
  • Am I seeking the exotic (extraordinary experiences/manifestations) or the substantial (living by Faith and not by sight)?
  • Am I attracted to the Saints of the Order?
  • Do I desire to grow through the writings of the Saints of the Order in my knowledge of the life of union with God?
  • Will I do the reading and the assignments required?
  • Do I want to teach - or to learn?
  • Does what I hear and learn at the meetings correspond to the desires of my heart?
  • As a result of my entering into the way of Carmel, do I find I am living the Gospel more perfectly?
  • As a result of my entering into the way of Carmel, is Christ becoming more and more the center of my life?
  • Do I recognize that I am truly a part of the family of Carmel?
  • Do I see that I am growing slowly, but surely, in this way of life?
  • Do I believe I can accurately describe the vocation of Carmel, its obligations and its mission in the Church and in the world?
  • Have I allowed the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Carmel, to enter into my life as my mother, teacher and protectress?
  • Do I desire to serve Christ’s Mystical Body, His Church, taking the Blessed Virgin as my model for this service?
  • Do I recognize within myself the call of the Holy Spirit to enter into meditative/contemplative prayer?
  • Do I recognize that a meditative/contemplative prayer life is not just for my own sake, but for the sake of the whole Body of Christ?
  • Am I zealous for the Lord God of Hosts and for His One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church?
  • Do I know and delight in the Carmelite heritage?
  • Do I see the Order as another pious group to join, or do I recognize that I am responding to a vocation given to me by God?
  • Am I desirous and willing to make a life-long commitment to the Secular Order of Discalced Carmelites?
In Christ,
Frances
 
A number of years ago I was invited to be one of the speakers at a gathering of the Lay Carmelites (T. O. Carm.); my chosen topic was “The Contemplative Women”. I thought all y’all (as we say in the south 🙂 ) might enjoy this:

“. . .in the heart of the Church, my Mother, I will be love.” With these words St. Therese of Lisieux joyfully proclaims her understanding of her life, her place in the Mystical Body of Christ: She was to be a sign in the midst of this Body of the love poured out for the salvation of the world.

To discover one’s vocation within the family that is our Lord’s Catholic Church is a great grace. The theme of this reunion, the Family of Carmel, is certainly an indication of where our vocation is to be found. As men and women who have responded to God’s call by the living out of the Rules of our respective Carmelite Orders, we are united under the banners of Elijah and St. Teresa of Jesus and St. John of the Cross, and in the tradition of St. Simon Stock, to be ever more faithful to that initial call of the Holy Spirit.

This call is to an intimate union with the family that is the Holy Trinity. This union makes us zealous for God and for the things of God. Zealous fidelity, despite – or more accurately – because of suffering, brings about a deepening awareness of our place within the Catholic Church, both as individuals and as a family as a whole.

Since my own experience of the Carmelite family life has been as a woman, it is as such that I wish to reflect on what I see to be the beauty of the vocation of contemplative women within Carmel and within the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

The words I quoted from St. Therese are reflective of the self-giving, the self-surrender that is channeled through the heart of a woman to those whom she loves. This self-surrender in love is marked by receptivity to new life, both in the physical sphere and in the realm of the spirit.

Whether a woman has been called to marriage, the single life, or to life as a nun, she has been given a self to surrender to the impulse of love, and she has been given a heart to receive the Living Flame Whose passion for her conforms her to her place within the Mystical Body of Christ.

But to be conformed necessitates cooperation and we cannot cooperate if our hearts are set on self-seeking and, to us a popular buzzword today, “empowerment.” We have but to look at the Blessed Virgin Mary to see the true power that comes to life through surrender to the Holy Spirit. Both in reception and cooperation she is the exemplary image of the Christian we (both male and female) must look to as we orient our lives to God.

continued. . .
 
A word we don’t hear too often these days is humility. For many this words conjures up the image of a spineless, mealy-mouthed weakling whose only desire is to self-righteously kneel in the shadows of someone else’s dust. But those familiar with the writings of St. Teresa of Jesus know that humility is nothing less than the self-knowledge necessary for growth as a child of our heavenly Father.

The self-knowledge of a woman admits of her needfulness of God and embraces the obedience of faith that will bring her to union with Him. She truly comes to see that this obedience is a leap into freedom from the slavery to self. She sees within her own nature the Church in miniature, surrendering in love to the designs of the Holy Spirit and bearing within herself the new life in and of Christ Jesus. She knows that it is only this life that undoes the disobedience of humanity, and that she is responsible for bringing this life to those God has place in her path to Him.

The woman who has been drawn by the Spirit to contemplation does not enter, then, into God’s presence alone. She draws with her all who have entwined themselves in her heart. She comes before the Holy Trinity more and more emptied of self, but yet her truest self and receptive to God’s own desire for her and for the souls of her care. She is singled-hearted in her love of God, but knows that the heights of prayer exude a fragrance that surrounds all who have touched her life.

The impact of the spiritual life of a woman on those in her range of influence can be for good or for ill. For good if it has been shaped by fidelity to Christ and His Church; for ill if it has been shaped by self-seeking and the counterfeits of Christian mysticism that are making greater inroads into Catholic life.

These counterfeits present the Lord Jesus as a “guru”, certainly great but, nonetheless, just one of many who can offer guidance to the inner depths of one’s soul. They present the visible Church as a threat to “real” spirituality. The proponents of a “feminist” spirituality are infatuated with the “Cosmic Christ” but alienated from the Divine Person of Jesus Christ Who is – unfortunately in their way of thinking – so male. And they are blind to the intimate and necessary union between authentic mysticism and the doctrines of the faith.

Some, both inside and outside the Church, place these in opposition, viewing dogmas as so many impediments to spiritual growth, as medieval theories which have no place in our more sophisticated world. The Church with her Magisterium, then, becomes the enemy of those who seek “true enlightenment” and, consequently, the moral life necessitated by adherence to dogma is something to be cast adrift on a sea of ever-changing popular attitudes and suppositions.

But it is through the church and her dogmas that we learn of God and of the beautiful designs He has for His people. It is dogma that is, as Cardinal Manning said, the true source of Christian spirituality. Dogma is the whetstone on which our life in the Spirit is honed to sharpness. St. John of the Cross sees the articles of faith as the “rungs” of the “secret ladder by which we make our hidden ascent to God.” (Ascent of Mount Carmel, Book 11, Ch. 1)

An ancient Hebrew popular re-telling of the story of Genesis reads in part as follows: “Once upon a time it happened that a pious man was married to a pious woman. But the produced no children. Then they said: ‘We are useless before God.’ They separated from one another. He went out and took a godless wife, who made him godless. She went out and took a godless husband, and made him righteous. Thus you see how everything depends on the woman.”

continued. . .
 
Throughout Scripture we see a high estimation of the religious influence of a wife over her husband, something to which , perhaps, our own experience can testify. This feminine influence was also appreciated by the Fathers of the Church. St. John Chrysostom wrote, “In virtue, women are often enough the instructors of men; while the latter wander about like jackdaws in dust and smoke, the former soar like eagles into higher spheres,” Epistle to the Ephesians.

But what, then, if a woman remains in the dust, or is misdirected in her desire to come to God? Who will mirror with her husband, in the faithful bond of marriage, the mystery of Christ and His Church? Who will honor her husband as the bishop of their family? Who will bear and teach her children to turn from sin and seek the face of God? Who will, with her fruitful virginity, bear Christ’s love to the unlovable and keep civilization from falling into the depths of despair and death? Who will keep patient vigil in the silence of the cloister for the return of the Bridegroom? Who will share the graced wisdom of age with a world seeking truth down so many blind alleys?

The women of the family that is Carmel who are desirous of the authentic spirituality which will keep her on the one way of Christ, can have no better guides than those great adventurers of the Spirit, St. Teresa and St. John. These Saints, our brother and our sister, who have already climbed the holy mountain, challenge us to embrace the beauty of virtue which entices our Beloved on the heights to pour Himself into us.

In St. Teresa we surely have a model and inspiration for fidelity to Christ and His Catholic Church. We are at one with her in her devotion to the person of Jesus Christ. We affirm with St. Teresa that our love for Christ cannot be separated from love for His Church – precisely because it is His Church, His Body still acting in the world until the risen Lord comes at the culmination of time. St. Teresa’s words on her deathbed, then, must be words we, her sisters and daughters, can claim as our own at any moment of our lives: “I am a daughter of the Church. I am a daughter of the Church.”
 
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