Secular Carmelites and those curious

[Mysty101]

Yes, there is, but don’t make it a chore.

You are not obliged to pray the hours, so do whatever is comfortable. If you miss something, don’t stress about it. or try to make it up the next day. Just concentrate on what you are able to pray—the psalms are so beautiful and uplifting.

 

[DBT]

I just want to take a brief moment to express a heart-felt thank you to all of you: to those steeped in Carmel who have so much wisdom to offer; to those just starting out; to those following this thread trying to discern God’s call in their life whether or not it involves Carmel; to those who might have questions/comments about Carmel who have yet to chime in.

I see God’s work being done here.

 

[mtr01]

mtr01:

As soon as I get a chance, though, I’ll find something more concrete from Fr. Dubay’s book. Hopefully, as Teresa mentioned above, this thread won’t get hijacked as a debate over centering prayer (as those tend to be most uncharitable). Personally, I think the saints are our best teachers, so it is informative (in my humble opinion) to see how these new forms of prayer “stack up” to the teachings of the saints.

As this thread seems to be moving away from the centering prayer debate (rightfully so, I believe), for those interested in Fr. Dubay’s view, I’ll post it over on the Centering Prayer thread.

 

[DBT]

Hi Frances -

Thank you for all your wonderful posts . . . I’m sure it will take me a bit of time to let everything you recently wrote sink in.

You know it never ceases to amaze me how sometimes we write something that, to us, might be no more than a passing thought but ends up having great meaning to someone else. This quote of yours just lept out at me:

FCEGM:

A goodly number of years ago I began to see that I am “naturally” contemplative. This was clearly illustrated to me on, of all places, a ski slope where the beauty I saw brought a yearning for the unseen Beauty beyond the apparent created beauty before me. I knew nothing, then, of the deeper supernatural contemplation to which one may be called.

In this I’m reminded of the experience of Brother Lawrence:

Brother Lawrence, Conversation 1
He told me that God had done him a singular favor in his conversion at the age of eighteen. That in the winter, seeing a tree stripped of its leaves, and considering that within a little time the leaves would be renewed, and after that the flowers and fruit appear, he received a high view of the providence and power of God, which has never since been effaced from his soul. That this view had perfectly set him loose from the world, and kindled in him such a love for God that he could not tell whether it had increased during the more than forty years he had lived since.

In my own case, it was the mere sight of a baseball that had rolled up against the tire of my car. Prior to that moment, you would have thought the most important thing in my life was to prepare my two son’s for a career as major league baseball players. But in that brief, wordless instant EVERYTHING changed for me. I “knew” what path I was to walk . . . and that there was no going back. I was put here to be a Saint and raise Saints. That moment was nearly 3 years ago and the memory of it is as clear as if it just happened today.

Yes, God does use the seen to reveal his unseen self.

 

[Augustine]

This thread is awesome or what!

But I have to ask about how the word “Carmel” is used here. It seems to me as it’s been used as part of the Carmelite jargon and I realized that I need to stop pretending that I know what it means. Would you charitably care to enlighten it?

Much obliged.

 

[springbreeze]

Augustine:

This thread is awesome or what!

But I have to ask about how the word “Carmel” is used here. It seems to me as it’s been used as part of the Carmelite jargon and I realized that I need to stop pretending that I know what it means. Would you charitably care to enlighten it?

Much obliged.

Dear Augustine

The Carmelite Order is named after a mountain range in the Holy Land called Mount Carmel. Elijah had the contest with the prophets of Baal on who was worshipping the true God on Mount Carmel, Elijah won! (Carmel as part of it;s rules strives to aspire to Elijah’s double spirit of contemplation and also responding to the Lord’s direction and will for us in the active world)

Mount Carmel has been the site of Holy men , mostly hermits since Elijah’s time.

The Mount is beautiful and can be viewed from Jerusalem. If a young man wished to compliment a girl, he would say your face is like Carmel, so beautiful is this Mount.

Inbetween 1206 and 1214 AD St Albert Patriarch of Jerusalem wrote the first rukle of Carmel based on the life they were already living and in 1251 St Simon Stock apparition of Our Lady of Mt Carmel and received the Brown Scapular.

Since 1455 the Papal approval was given for the second and third orders of carmel (Cloistered nuns/active religious or laity secular).

Mid 16th century reform of Carmel led by St Teresa of Avila and St John of the Cross

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[DBT]

Quick question for you Augustine . . .

Did you ever get a chance to look into the Austin community?

The reason I ask is that our community will be hosting (if that’s the proper term) this year’s national congress/convention. I’m pretty sure the organizers said someone from the Austin community was scheduled to be a speaker.

 

[Augustine]

Thanks for your response, Teresa.

But I was refering to the “Carmel” as used in “the way of Carmel”, “in Carmel”. Is it a synonym for OCD?

God bless you.

 

[springbreeze]

Augustine:

Thanks for your response, Teresa.

But I was refering to the “Carmel” as used in “the way of Carmel”, “in Carmel”. Is it a synonym for OCD?

God bless you.

Dear friend

I am so very sorry. I misinterpreted your question. Forgive me for that please.

OCD means Order of the Decalced Carmelite , the older order is O’Carm (abbrev) which means Order of Carmelites (which is the order I am an aspirant in.

The terms ‘Carmel’ and the ‘way of Carmel’ refer to the rule and the way of life within Carmel. Those who have a heart after Carmel and those who are professed or aspiring in Carmel.

If you strive in the rules of Carmel everyday but are not part of the third order, you share in the charisms of Carmel and are of ‘Carmel’ but you do not benefit from the wider community of carmel, however having said this, the rule of Carmel is to pray for the church and therefore everyone benefits from Carmel.

I would say that to possess the heart of ‘Carmel’ …‘to love, to adhere to the rules of the carmelite order’ ‘to pray and strive in prayer’ is a mystical union with Carmel and this dear friend cannot be taken from you.

You and your wife are in my heart and in my prayers xx

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[Augustine]

DBT:

Did you ever get a chance to look into the Austin community?

Not really. I need to leave the offer in the altar and go make peace with my neighbor first: my wife needs to get an annullment before I can be found among the Lord’s flock.

DBT:

The reason I ask is that our community will be hosting (if that’s the proper term) this year’s national congress/convention. I’m pretty sure the organizers said someone from the Austin community was scheduled to be a speaker.

I’d appreciate if you’d let me know about your impression on the group. From what I could find in their web site, they seemed like a bunch of good people. However, they also stated that they were thinking about limiting the size of their community…

God bless you.

 

[buzzcut]

DBT:

I just want to take a brief moment to express a heart-felt thank you to all of you: to those steeped in Carmel who have so much wisdom to offer; to those just starting out; to those following this thread trying to discern God’s call in their life whether or not it involves Carmel; to those who might have questions/comments about Carmel who have yet to chime in.

Several people have mentioned that they liked this thread. I don’t know if everyone else knows these ones already, but I just found some Carmelite-only forums:

groups.yahoo.com/group/cincarm

carmeliteforum.org

 

[springbreeze]

buzzcut:

Several people have mentioned that they liked this thread. I don’t know if everyone else knows these ones already, but I just found some Carmelite-only forums:

groups.yahoo.com/group/cincarm

carmeliteforum.org

Dearest Buzzcut

Thank you for these links. Your (name removed by moderator)ut has been most beautiful in this thread and I feel we are blessed to have you. You are a quiet, serious soul and your gentleness is apparent. Thank you again

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

 

[FCEGM]

DBT:

In my own case, it was the mere sight of a baseball that had rolled up against the tire of my car. Prior to that moment, you would have thought the most important thing in my life was to prepare my two son’s for a career as major league baseball players. But in that brief, wordless instant EVERYTHING changed for me. I “knew” what path I was to walk . . . and that there was no going back. I was put here to be a Saint and raise Saints. That moment was nearly 3 years ago and the memory of it is as clear as if it just happened today.

Yes, God does use the seen to reveal his unseen self.

The lesson of God using the little things to teach us! Thank you, DBT, for this. I remember my spiritual director speaking of really “seeing” a shower curtain. Yup, little things DO mean a lot.

In Carmel,
Frances

"God alone suffices, " St. Teresa of Jesus.

 

[FCEGM]

Fergal:

On a sad note it seems that the secular order is dead in Ireland.

I have been interested in joining for many years. I have written to the National Coordinator of the Lay Apostolate twice and received no reply. I have written to many Carmelite Priests about my deep desire and again have received no acknowledgement.

Fergal, I’m sorry for the delay in my response, but I just found this link and thought if you hadn’t already seen it it might help you finally contact some Irish Carmelites:

ocdswashprov.org/ProvincialDelegates/Jordan/territory_served.htm

In Christ,
Frances

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“I am a daughter of the Church,” St. Teresa of Jesus

 

[Joysong]

Dear Frances,

I meant to write a thank-you yesterday, after reading the beautiful posts you shared with us - but got involved elsewhere. Lest I forget again, I want to send a big hug and Kudos for all your contributions! I also saw some of your posts on this topic at another Forum, where you use the name FranMar.

It must really be painful for you to be away from community life. I have the same problem, being split between two states for summer and winters. God is good in providing the internet as a refuge for us to be in contact with one another and continue to grow through the inspirations we share.

May God continue to bless you abundantly!

 

[DBT]

Hi Fergal -

Buzzcut provided a link to this site in post #250 in case you missed it. I just noticed it’s based in England/Ireland . . . perhaps it will be of some help

carmeliteforum.org

 

[Jenlyn]

springbreeze:

Dear Jen

Some people possess a radio, a computer and a television, this can be said to be useful sometimes imperative for work purposes…but do we need 5 tv’s? do we need 2 computers? do we need endless outfits and endless pairs of shoes??? this is what we are to assess.

The answer is of course no, we do not need all of those things, but moreover it is not the possessing of the objects that can be the problem, it is the unwillingness to share them and even worse to be ‘attached’ to them so that they become our god.

The Christian must be prepared to lose and not grieve the losing, to share what we do have and to be thankful and share our blessings because it is by God’s grace we have it.

Personally I have been happy to be unshackled from my possessions and have been happy to live a simple life in a four room house that is very small and happy to not have to worry if someone would rob me because there is nothing worth taking and if they do take it I don’t care if they do.

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa

Lovely Teresa! I too live in a very small house. I also ‘spring clean’ often. I see I am on track to living the gospels in this respect.

Peace,
Jen

 

[Jenlyn]

Joysong:

Dear Jen,
As for poverty, remember that when we promise to observe the rule: poverty, chastity, and obedience - it means we do this in accord with our state in life - which is secular. As such, we have family and personal obligations that take precedence over any desires we might have to embrace celibacy (if we are married) or true poverty (if we have the care of a family).

But what we can strive to do is practice the deeper virtue of detachment, which embraces poverty of spirit, so highly recommended by St. Teresa. There are very many spiritual forms of poverty that we need to embrace in order to grow in holiness.
I see puzzles in your eye.

Joysong,

I’m so excited! I actually am working on this! I started this at the beginning of the school year. Not letting things bother me that don’t go my way. Some days are better than others.

I really need to get my “Story of a Soul” back! Wow, I wan to read it again! Whoops…I’ll wait until he’s ready to give it back!:yup:

Peace,
Jen

 

[Augustine]

I am so very sorry. I misinterpreted your question. Forgive me for that please.

Not necessary. If there was any fault, it was mine for wording the question so poorly.

Your explanation about the Order traditions were quite enlightening.

Thanks again and may God bless you.

 

[springbreeze]

Joysong:

Dear Jen,

Great link on contemplation! You found a treasure, all in one reading!

As for poverty, remember that when we promise to observe the rule: poverty, chastity, and obedience - it means we do this in accord with our state in life - which is secular. As such, we have family and personal obligations that take precedence over any desires we might have to embrace celibacy (if we are married) or true poverty (if we have the care of a family).

But what we can strive to do is practice the deeper virtue of detachment, which embraces poverty of spirit, so highly recommended by St. Teresa. There are very many spiritual forms of poverty that we need to embrace in order to grow in holiness.
I see puzzles in your eye.

Remember in Story of a Soul, how Therese became upset when her artist brushes were not at her disposal? (I seem to remember somebody borrowed them) She was tempted to become indignant and outright impatient. Poverty of spirit would overlook the inconvenience, as she quickly realized. How about the poverty of spirit that she practiced whenever it came time for meals? She hid her personal preference for foods so well, that nobody could determine when she did or did not like something. She offered it up, accepting whatever was served to her without complaint or showing any facial expressions.

St. Teresa of Avila had a real problem with “points of honor,” which she finally overcame by the willingness to be less acceptable to others — poverty, which freed her from attachment to honors and being well thought of.

And many other examples you may have already thought of, since you also read these books.

Dearest Carole

I am very interested in anything you may be able to offer information wise, opinion, direction and/or recommended reading in respect of living in poverty of spirit in the Carmel Rule.

I ask you specifically because you are so very knowledgeable, but really this is open to anyone with the answers!! I’d be grateful to learn more on this.

Thank you in advance

God Bless you and much love and peace to you

Teresa